Tuned my side edges and then I decided to tune the based edges...

[Captain Furious]

Did I screw up the tune? I know everyone says to tune the side edges last, but does it really make that much of a difference? I was having a few beers while tuning and didn't realize the error of my ways until about 15 minutes after I finished. Thanks.

Bill

 

[CalG]

How did you perform the base edge tune? With a guide I would hope.

A quick run down the edge with a soft stone will remove any burr. Check with your finger nail.

Give it a run, there is always next tune!

 

[Atomicman]

Did I screw up the tune? I know everyone says to tune the side edges last, but does it really make that much of a difference? I was having a few beers while tuning and didn't realize the error of my ways until about 15 minutes after I finished. Thanks.

Bill

You're fine. Any burr created from working on the base edge is different than from working on the side edge. Since the burr is created perpendicular to the side edge rather than as a continuation of the side edge down into the snow, it does not create the negative skiing characteristics, because as soon as the ski is tipped up on edge the burr breaks off. But to be safe, simply diamond stone the side edge a little bit with the same final stone you last used on the side edge. I would then deburr as you always should after doing the side edge last.

 

[Sibhusky]

But generally you should not be touching that base edge.

... Had to inject that....

 

[Captain Furious]

But generally you should not be touching that base edge.

... Had to inject that....

Thanks for the replies, guys. But I have a question Sibhusky... when my base edges start getting chewed up b/c I hit some rock or whatever (I ski in Maine and last month it rained a lot, so...), shouldn't I be using a diamond stone to clean it up a bit? I don't use files on my skis, just stones. Thanks.

Bill

 

[François Pugh]

I would like to take this opportunity to dig into this further. The side edge is tuned with a guide that runs along the base of the ski. The base edge is tuned with a guide that runs along the same base of the ski. The angles should be just as accurate. Other than removing a bit of p-tex next to the metal edge (a long bevel is what @Jacques calls it), what's the harm?
The point gets moved up farther from the ice your skiing on.
Ski tuning shops lose business.
Anything else?

 

[Sibhusky]

You'll find that even using a guide, you're increasing the bevel. Gradually that stone in the guide won't be touching the base edge, even using non-flexing ceramic and Arkansas stones. It'll only clip off part of the burr from tuning. Now, does the average tuner stop hitting the edge when that happens? I'm guessing they'll still feel the remains of the burr and hit it some more. Maybe using the gummy, maybe bearing down a bit on the stone. But it's time for a stone grind when all your stone is affecting is the air. Some won't care if the bevel has become a 2 as soon as others will. But your bite on ice will require that much more effort. And it'll be back to the shop to remove ptex or you'll be going through Jacques's long bevel and then a flatten process. I've managed to avoid having the shop touch them for a while, but, they're due. Not for base flatness, not for structure, but because of base beveling. It's been a few years, I've been careful, but.. That bevel has increased. That's why you'll hear some here asking for a .7 on the base. So they can put off the inevitable longer. (Then of course you have to track down a .7° guide...)

So, leave the base edge alone except to get the "outies". Certainly there will be polished "innies". Leave them alone on the base.

 

[Jacques]

Did I screw up the tune? I know everyone says to tune the side edges last, but does it really make that much of a difference? I was having a few beers while tuning and didn't realize the error of my ways until about 15 minutes after I finished. Thanks.

Bill

I don't really understand what you are asking.
Main thing about your base edge is only work it to remove the high spots. All base bevels will grow over time. The icy conditions may do that quicker than soft conditions.
Most folks tune the base edge first with a new ski because the side edge guide can be hitting the base edge depending on the guide used. You don't want that to happen. Or a used ski that has become railed. (base edge high)
If the ski already had been properly base beveled, then no big deal.
Again as said above only remove the high spots from the rock hits on the base edge.

 

[François Pugh]

You'll find that even using a guide, you're increasing the bevel. Gradually that stone in the guide won't be touching the base edge, even using non-flexing ceramic and Arkansas stones. It'll only clip off part of the burr from tuning. Now, does the average tuner stop hitting the edge when that happens? I'm guessing they'll still feel the remains of the burr and hit it some more. Maybe using the gummy, maybe bearing down a bit on the stone. But it's time for a stone grind when all your stone is affecting is the air. Some won't care if the bevel has become a 2 as soon as others will. But your bite on ice will require that much more effort. And it'll be back to the shop to remove ptex or you'll be going through Jacques's long bevel and then a flatten process. I've managed to avoid having the shop touch them for a while, but, they're due. Not for base flatness, not for structure, but because of base beveling. It's been a few years, I've been careful, but.. That bevel has increased. That's why you'll hear some here asking for a .7 on the base. So they can put off the inevitable longer. (Then of course you have to track down a .7° guide...)

So, leave the base edge alone except to get the "outies". Certainly there will be polished "innies". Leave them alone on the base.

Please explain in detail how a file held in a 0.5 degree steel base bevel guide, held flat to the base of the ski, the same base that gives your side angle base bevel an exact 3 degrees will give your base bevel a 2 degree angle.

 

[Jacques]

I would like to take this opportunity to dig into this further. The side edge is tuned with a guide that runs along the base of the ski. The base edge is tuned with a guide that runs along the same base of the ski. The angles should be just as accurate. Other than removing a bit of p-tex next to the metal edge (a long bevel is what @Jacques calls it), what's the harm?
The point gets moved up farther from the ice your skiing on.
Ski tuning shops lose business.
Anything else?

Keep in mind that to bevel just a touch into the base during a base bevel set is no big deal if it is needed to create a consistent base bevel along the entire base edge length.
Also a bit of a longer base bevel with a thin edge is no big deal.
The length of the base bevel with a thick "fatty" edge is going to be much longer than a "standard" edge thickness.
It is not very easy to file base plastic anyway. It takes a lot of work and maybe a coarser file. Then the diamond stones can also remove some base plastic.
As that happens, one needs to continually be cleaning the stone to keep that action working. The file as well.
If I need to flatten a base a bit with the steel scraper, I always do a long base bevel first, then scrape the base to meet the now lower edge.
If done well, the ski will end up flatter. Many times a bit of steel scraping needs to be done before the long base bevel step is performed.
I hope that all makes sense.

 

[Captain Furious]

But generally you should not be touching that base edge.

... Had to inject that....

Thanks for the replies, guys. But I have a question Sibhusky... when my base edges start getting chewed up b/c I hit some rock or whatever (I ski in Maine and last month it rained a lot, so...), shouldn't I be using a diamond stone to clean it up a bit? I don't use files on my skis, just stones. Thanks.

Bill

 

[Captain Furious]

Oops. Didn't mean to repost that...

But I did just want to say that I really appreciate the board members in this community. Thanks a bunch for the responses and tips. I plan on uploading some photos of my edges later this week to get a little bit of feedback. Since everything I do is self taught with respect to tuning, I'm not always a hundred percent sure if I'm doing things correctly. Thanks.

Bill

 

[jack97]

Thanks for the replies, guys. But I have a question Sibhusky... when my base edges start getting chewed up b/c I hit some rock or whatever (I ski in Maine and last month it rained a lot, so...), shouldn't I be using a diamond stone to clean it up a bit? I don't use files on my skis, just stones. Thanks.

Bill

If you're hitting a lot of rocks then you should consider something more than a diamond stone. Something that cuts or a machine that eats into the edge.

And some times that's not enough, I just transition my last season regular skis into my next season rock skis. The base edges has so much dents it's not worth the time and effort.

 

[Sibhusky]

@François Pugh , at no point did I say a .5 guide was going to result in a 2. But eventually it will result in a 1, just due to things like the diamond stone flexing slightly, especially as you try to knock off that burr, and the gummy being used to smooth that outie from hitting that rock. And just usage.

@Captain Furious definitely clean up the dings, just don't regularly start working the base edge.

 

[Eleeski]

I don't do things right - I like to do the sides first. My edger leaves scratches on the base that the bottom file cleans up. I do like a flat base edge. Whatever edge comes out from just running the file across the base and putting some pressure on the file (probably not exactly 0 degrees). This action cleans up the base a bit. But I usually need to scrape anyhow.

Normally I just do the side edges only. The base edges I leave to the grind.

The tunes from Tahoe Snow Lab were better than anything I can do so maybe I'm not the best source of advice. But my skis do edge better after I work on them.

Eric

 

[Atomicman]

Actually FP is dead wrong. You cannot over bevel the side edge but you sure as hell can over bevel the base edge. It is just fact. And you can get to 2 with a .5 if you continue to make passes and pressure the the file or diamond file. I can make all the passes I want with. 3 degree tool, it will not become a 4. In fact I believe most folks over bevel their base edge. unless you have some way to accurately measure, you are shooting in the dark. A 1 degree = a 1 mm Gap 60mm across the ski between the base and true bar when a truebar is matched to the metal edge angle. Also my answer above answers what the OP asked, He said when "tuning" my skis....he didn't say when touching them up or doing routine maintenance.

 

[François Pugh]

Actually FP is dead wrong. You cannot over bevel the side edge but you sure as hell can over bevel the base edge. It is just fact. And you can get to 2 with a .5 if you continue to make passes and pressure the the file or diamond file. I can make all the passes I want with. 3 degree tool, it will not become a 4. In fact I believe most folks over bevel their base edge. unless you have some way to accurately measure, you are shooting in the dark. A 1 degree = a 1 mm Gap 60mm across the ski between the base and true bar when a truebar is matched to the metal edge angle. Also my answer above answers what the OP asked, He said when "tuning" my skis....he didn't say when touching them up or doing routine maintenance.

Saying I am dead wrong is not an explanation, even though you may be right.
Until I hear a reasonable explanation on how a metal file guide and metal file can be used to accurately file one side of an edge, but not the other I'll remain unconvinced.
Sure, a poor workman can screw anything up, even with the right tools, but that's not what I'm talking about.

 

[Captain Furious]

So, here's another question. Once I hit my side edges with the diamond stones, how do I take the burr off the edge? What's the best way to check for that? I took my skis out today after my tune up / touch up and they felt a bit grabby, which I'm guessing is b/c of a burr left on the edge. Not sure how to ID that and get rid of it. Thanks.

Bill

 

[Sibhusky]

Run a hard gummi down the edge with no pressure. I always test my edges by brushing my fingers outwards from ptex to edge in multiple swipes moving from one end to another. If I feel drag on my skin, I focus on that area, especially seeing if my nail catches a burr.

 

[Atomicman]

Saying I am dead wrong is not an explanation, even though you may be right.
Until I hear a reasonable explanation on how a metal file guide and metal file can be used to accurately file one side of an edge, but not the other I'll remain unconvinced.
Sure, a poor workman can screw anything up, even with the right tools, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I don't have to.......Its called EXPERIENCE. I don't know the physics. Your assumption that the two edges operate the same is an incorrect assumption. . One is adjacent to air and the other the base where the bevel is measured in relation to the base of the ski, the fact that the tools both glide on the same base is immaterial.

You are certainly welcome to over bevel your base edge. And by the way, I check my bevel with SVST Bevelmeter. Without it you have little idea what your base bevel actually is.