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True Bar recommendations

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1chris5

1chris5

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Here are some random thoughts on true bars.

I have a knife edge one (I think the Artech one) and like it. What is nice about this is it goes edge to edge and if you slide it lightly, it will leave a light scratch line so you can see where it is or isn't touching.

I was in a ski shop a couple years ago (SkiMD) and he had a true bar fashioned with a small light behind it. Been looking for something like that but haven't found one yet. Makes it so you don't have to hold them to the light or anything. If anyone knows of one, I'm plenty interested.

Like was previously asked, once you know the condition, what are you going to do? I have the skivisions as well and I flattened a pair of skis with it once. Life's too short. I do like the tool and the idea of having flat skis but it is a lot of work. I only use it for touch ups and repairs now. Usually I take my skis in to one of two shops I like and ask they only flatten and structure the bottom and leave the base and side edge alone. I explain it has nothing to do with their abilities but when I touch them up through the season it will be with my tools, my hands and my technique; not theirs. This way, they are always the same and if anything is not right, it is on me and no one else.

The next question is how flat do you need them? Keep in mind the snow isn't flat and if you carve, you aren't on the bottoms a lot anyway. What I like about having the bottom flat is when I set the edges, it is more consistent. I might not matter anywhere but in my head (I have OCD tendencies). Well there and when you know you're going to be on ice. I love sharp skis. I've been out on my crappy trees ski that had a lick and a promise tune and the Race Director where I coach told me I was making beautiful carved turns. I was on my worst skis with hardly a tune and got the best compliment of the season. That immediately made me question the hours I spend each season at the tuning bench getting my race and coaching skis perfect. Why bother if it isn't affecting my skiing. Fortunately I think of tuning as therapy and is a good excuse to drink so I still do it :)

Cheers,
Ken
Wow - great post. Lots to think about. It's fun to try and deep dive on one single thing. There is so much fun knowledge to gain in this forum. My thought as to flat base is to achieve consistent edge angles. The true bar is really just to confirm that our new skis are ok and I can check my kids skis to see where they are. There are always more than a few days of pure ice on some of the steeper runs where I ski. One goal is to ski much better on pure ice. I really want consistent, great edges this season just for those days. I am not looking for perfection, my new catch phrase is "good 'nuff". I just want to take my ski technique and tuning to the next level but it's all good. In the past I've gone years without tuning skis or tele gear and was always fine with it. Cheers
 

markojp

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Red for slalom and white for powder skis? Or do I have that backwards?

There's the wrong way, then there's the other wrong way, then there's beer. ogsmile
 

graham418

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What is the thinking behind round bars vs flat / rectangular ones? I would think that a round bar would make it harder to see a gap. Am I missing something?
 
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1chris5

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What is the thinking behind round bars vs flat / rectangular ones? I would think that a round bar would make it harder to see a gap. Am I missing something?
I bought a cheap round bar and I had no problem seeing gaps. I read maybe black lights help? Haven't tried but I guess if you shine a small flash light behind bar it will show gaps more clearly. Do the same thing with black lights? My son has a small black light led bar. WIll try using it and see how it works. I think one downside to round bar is it can roll off work surface but I don't think it will go out of true that way. The flat bars are probably easier to work with. I see them in rectangular shape (SVST Basic Bar) and ruler shape some with pointy end (BEAST). They say you can use those gapper thingys to measure edge angle with the BEAST bar pointy end. You can also measure edge angle using a sharpy on the edge and different edge angle tools. The tool that completely shaves off the sharpy mark is the current angle. I'm sure there are other pros and cons but that's all I can think of. One other thing to think of is length. My tool is 6" and will cover maybe width up to 152mm. Not sure what the widest part of some fat skis are. For snowboards I would just make sure base is flat 3 or 4 inches from each edge so edge angle is consistent. Cheers
 

KingGrump

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I believe that is "back" and not "black".
 
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1chris5

1chris5

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I believe that is "back" and not "black".
'Back in black I hit the sack. I've been too long I'm glad to be back. Yes I am. Let loose from the noose. That's kept me hanging about.' Oh sorry, AC/DC senior moment.
 
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1chris5

1chris5

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What is the thinking behind round bars vs flat / rectangular ones? I would think that a round bar would make it harder to see a gap. Am I missing something?
Oh, one more thing, I think a very important part of the true bar is the color - black ( or back in black)
 

KingGrump

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You can buy a Blacklight True Bar from Tognar.

Their product description:
  • No, these babies don't glow in the dark like a psychedelic poster under an ultraviolet light!
  • Instead, they sport a stealthy black finish to help reduced unwanted reflected light...this makes it easier for your eye to detect high or low spots when checking a ski or snowboard base for flatness.
Put a light behind it like the in the pic.

back light.png


Voilà, a back lighted black light true bar in action. :yahoo:
 

KingGrump

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With back light, either will do.
Bare eye balls - flat with knife edge.
 

L&AirC

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You can buy a Blacklight True Bar from Tognar.

Their product description:
  • No, these babies don't glow in the dark like a psychedelic poster under an ultraviolet light!
  • Instead, they sport a stealthy black finish to help reduced unwanted reflected light...this makes it easier for your eye to detect high or low spots when checking a ski or snowboard base for flatness.
Put a light behind it like the in the pic.

View attachment 29070

Voilà, a back lighted black light true bar in action. :yahoo:

This is along the lines of what I do. The true bar I was talking about that SkiMD had had a flashlight attached to the true bar that pointed down. It looked like it was something you see at the checkout counter of a hardware store and didn't appear to stick out above the true bar (which was a black knife edge).

All it would take to make one is a little glue and the light. I have plenty of glue/epoxy. What I haven't found yet is a light the right size. Granted I haven't looked very hard either.
 
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1chris5

1chris5

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This is along the lines of what I do. The true bar I was talking about that SkiMD had had a flashlight attached to the true bar that pointed down. It looked like it was something you see at the checkout counter of a hardware store and didn't appear to stick out above the true bar (which was a black knife edge).

All it would take to make one is a little glue and the light. I have plenty of glue/epoxy. What I haven't found yet is a light the right size. Granted I haven't looked very hard either.
My question is this rig really needed. I bought a black tube true bar. My work lights are the cheap fluorescent tubes above the work surface. I could see the gaps very easily against the black surface. On thinking of it now though, not sure yet how it looks on a different color base. A white base may be different. Will check soon and I will comment. Cheers
 

L&AirC

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1chris5,

It is easiest to see gaps of light poking through dark background and is why they make a black true bar. Coincidently, most ski bases are black. Different colors will have an effect, but not make it impossible to see. Some are easier than others is all.

Putting a flashlight as KG showed or something along those lines makes it so you don't have to pick the ski up and point to the light. Remember that you can not only check the base for flatness, but the edges too. The latter takes a calibrated eye (I'm a hack) but it is easy to see if there is a gap on the edge or not. Some claim to be able to tell what the edge angle is as well. Not me.

With regards to whether or not it is needed, I could go on for days on that topic. If your number one objective for your family is to have fun, probably not. If #2 is maintaining your equipment so it will last, still probably not (wax helps more than flatness). Dealing with ice, it moves up but technique will help here at least as much. Not saying you do but if you suck and are on flat sharp skis, you will still struggle with ice.

As an east coaster, I'm sure you have seen even on powder days, there are areas that are scraped down to porcelain and you still benefit from a sharp edge.

Compare it to a family that goes out bike riding. Do they tune their bikes before each trip? Do you true the wheels? Probably not but as long as everything works (tires not flat, brakes work and chain is lubed), a good time will be had by all. If the family is going to a race of some sort, then they might want to step it up a little.

Over the years I've been tedious about my gear so any deficiencies that serviced in my skiing are technique and not gear related. This is because I started skiing late in life and decided to put myself on an accelerated learning curve.

Along with being able to tell if it is me or not, I also have to do demos for the athletes all day long. Because of that, I want to make sure that the ski perform consistently so I don't look like a knucklehead. Nothing is worse than a coach that can't do the task being asked of the athlete and unfortunately, I see it now and again.

On top of this, I also enjoy tuning. Some people knit for therapy. I tune skis and drink. Everyone leave me alone too. If they come and start bugging me, I put on Country music and the basement is mine again.

Life is good.

Ken
 

Doug Briggs

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I'm chiming in without having read the entire thread.

I use the square variety of true bar. We also use it as to calibrate our TrimJet bevels along with a digital level. Ours is black and I hold the ski up so that a light is behind the true bar.

We have the round style, but it seemed harder to read. A ruler could bend this creating an arc not necessarily a line. If It were supported with something inflexible it could get the job done, I suppose.

Many skis are nice and flat when they arrive in the wrapper. High end skis and race skis in particular.

Many skis come concave, especially wide indie skis. I've had to spend considerable effort on some fat indie skis just to get the stone grind to go from edge to edge. That required an excessive amount of material removal. I wouldn't have been too concerned except the base material appeared to be course belt sanded and concave right out of the wrapper. It was not conducive to good skiing. I can not believe the poor quality of some brands; they are almost universally rough, with hairs from the belt sander and still not even close to flat.
 
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Thread Starter
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1chris5

1chris5

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1chris5,

It is easiest to see gaps of light poking through dark background and is why they make a black true bar. Coincidently, most ski bases are black. Different colors will have an effect, but not make it impossible to see. Some are easier than others is all.

Putting a flashlight as KG showed or something along those lines makes it so you don't have to pick the ski up and point to the light. Remember that you can not only check the base for flatness, but the edges too. The latter takes a calibrated eye (I'm a hack) but it is easy to see if there is a gap on the edge or not. Some claim to be able to tell what the edge angle is as well. Not me.

With regards to whether or not it is needed, I could go on for days on that topic. If your number one objective for your family is to have fun, probably not. If #2 is maintaining your equipment so it will last, still probably not (wax helps more than flatness). Dealing with ice, it moves up but technique will help here at least as much. Not saying you do but if you suck and are on flat sharp skis, you will still struggle with ice.

As an east coaster, I'm sure you have seen even on powder days, there are areas that are scraped down to porcelain and you still benefit from a sharp edge.

Compare it to a family that goes out bike riding. Do they tune their bikes before each trip? Do you true the wheels? Probably not but as long as everything works (tires not flat, brakes work and chain is lubed), a good time will be had by all. If the family is going to a race of some sort, then they might want to step it up a little.

Over the years I've been tedious about my gear so any deficiencies that serviced in my skiing are technique and not gear related. This is because I started skiing late in life and decided to put myself on an accelerated learning curve.

Along with being able to tell if it is me or not, I also have to do demos for the athletes all day long. Because of that, I want to make sure that the ski perform consistently so I don't look like a knucklehead. Nothing is worse than a coach that can't do the task being asked of the athlete and unfortunately, I see it now and again.

On top of this, I also enjoy tuning. Some people knit for therapy. I tune skis and drink. Everyone leave me alone too. If they come and start bugging me, I put on Country music and the basement is mine again.

Life is good.

Ken
Yeah, I do this because there is a certain amount of tuning that needs to be done. We have 4 sets of skis and 3 snowboards so it's cheaper. I am getting to the point where I do at least as good as the shop. Also, I use Jerry Garcia Band. No one bothers me when I listen to extended jam band music. Need good ventilation for waxing. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Tune your gear and tune your mind. Cheers
 

Swiss Toni

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Many skis are nice and flat when they arrive in the wrapper. High end skis and race skis in particular.

This is largely down to the core, high end and race skies have cores that are made from rotary cut veneers (left) whereas most wide skies have cores that are made from strips of wood (right). These cores are much cheaper to make but are more prone to warping and cupping.

Woodcores.jpg


There should really be a standard for how flat a ski should be.
 

ScottB

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I used to hold the ski up to the light with my true bar on top. I am tall and my basement ceiling is low. You can guess the result. I now use this light laying on the ski. It works great and is pretty in-expensive. Try one, you might like it. I also use magnifying goggles so I can really see what is going on with the surface of the ski. I don't ski better doing this, but I feel more "informed".

https://www.flashingpanda.com/Item....MI8Kf00eeO1gIVkrrACh2JSQ7fEAQYAiABEgILB_D_BwE

upload_2017-9-5_15-55-9.png
 

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