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hbear

Out on the slopes
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Being old school, even hand brushes are kind of secondary to me. For free skiing on harsh snow is it even possible to notice the difference?

And for racing, especially a fair to middling U16 how much time are we talking about? Is gaining 0.05s from rotobrushing and expensive waxes really justifiable?

Again I don't have a kid racing nor did I build their soapbox derby cars....

For racing, the kids will be making way more mistakes that cost them greater time than expensive waxes can negate. That being said, while HF waxes might are not necessary being on the wrong (slow) side of the wax temp CAN make a significant difference so one has to get that in the ballpark.

Roto brushes to me are less about race times but instead the time savings and physical effort it saves me when tuning skis. e.g. if I didn't roto, I'd be brushing, brushing, brushing, brushing.....roto gets me to the same base finish just WAY faster.
 

ScotsSkier

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For racing, the kids will be making way more mistakes that cost them greater time than expensive waxes can negate. That being said, while HF waxes might are not necessary being on the wrong (slow) side of the wax temp CAN make a significant difference so one has to get that in the ballpark.

Roto brushes to me are less about race times but instead the time savings and physical effort it saves me when tuning skis. e.g. if I didn't roto, I'd be brushing, brushing, brushing, brushing.....roto gets me to the same base finish just WAY faster.

Yes, the time saved in getting a quality finish is key, especially when you are prepping multiple pairs.

And properly brushing out is key to getting a fast ski, doesn't matter how HF the wax is, if not brushed out well,it ain't going to perform. And for tech events, for most racers, a ski well prepped with good HC wax is going to do the job. I will sometimes use an LF as one of the "ingredients" when prepping my GS race skis but normally mixed with HC. And for a cheap but valuable overlay to apply at the start, grab some race rocket which lasts a long time as well. Does the race rocket make much difference? I'll be honest and admit it is hard to say but it is part of my pre race routine now and my GS skis usually run pretty well based on results......

For speed events of course it is a whole different beeswax.....a veritable wax arms race.....and yes, I will admit that now I do use several different additives/ HF etc on these plus overlays and final brush out before the start. (Still normally some HC base though). Here it does make a difference - at least I tell myself it does! ogsmile . I still have some more work to do to refine this tho - missed the DH podium at masters nationals last season by .04s. One bad turn? :eek: Of course not, more overlay required! :beercheer: And maybe a roto brush to the start.....
 

Frankly

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Thanks for being gentle with my ignorance. Last time I was serious about racing was Winter 82-83 and we were trying to graze bamboo. Luckily $$$$$$ my kids never raced and what little skiing we do has been just for fun where clean edges and cheap wax have served me well. I was one of the last hold outs who kept 90-degree edges until well past due. So I never had the need to do modern tunes to the ninth degree.

Back then there was no notion of structure, what polishing we did was with a cork. Basically we spent hours flat-filing the Hell out of wobbly ski bases because they came from the factory like junk and the belt sanders would cup them whenever you had to do a serious repair.

Nowadays I'd feel kind of stupid overdoing it for a bop in a NASTAR course or even a local beer race when I know I'm dumping a ton of time with technique. And my personal tuning technique for one or two pair is weened down and simplified from whatever I see on You Tube.

Last year I found a box of 12" Oberg files that I've been carting around for years, pretty much worthless for today's tuning techniques but really nice steel for blacksmithing and knife making....
 
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Pdub

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Stupid questions: does rotobrushing eliminate the need for scraping? Is a rotobrushed ski faster than a hand brushed ski? Is there a big learning curve?

I have 3 junior racers and for me the most dreaded part of the routine is scraping. This conversation makes me wonder if I'm not brushing properly or adequately. My kids are U16 and U14 and (so far) only skiing tech events, but they are fairly competitive. They are also really light so I figure any speed advantage they can get is a good thing.
 

Sibhusky

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If you want to clog up your expensive rotobrushes with wax, you can eliminate scraping. Make sure you have a shield and a face mask. That wouldn't be my choice. Better to scrape, then brush. Use less wax or run a Fiberlene pass and there will be less to scrape.
 

ScotsSkier

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PDub. It does NOT eliminate the need for scraping. The better you scrape it the less time required for brushing. Having said that, for normal skiing/training I will admit to being a bit less fastidious about scraping than I am with a race ski prep. I may scrape a bit less and then be a bit more aggressive initially with the horse-hair roto brush before (maybe) finishing off with the soft nylon roto brush. I may also use the scraper for a couple of passes in between the brushes. I use a roto quick release handle with both brushes mounted on it so no need to swap brushes usually

wrt scraping, if you dont already have one I would strongly recommend getting a scraper sharper such as the Mantac. Makes a BIG difference in how well and how quickly you can scrape.

How much and how well you brush should also be influenced by what the use is going to be. Do your kids have a dedicated race pair or are they skiing on the same pair prior to the race? When I brush (usually finishing off by hand and/or adding overlays) to a real deal race finish you can actually feel the difference (slower) in the ski after it has done 1(speed) or 2 (GS) race runs. So remember if you are looking for all day performance dont over brush!! My trainers/coaching/free skis usually just get a few quick passes with the horsehair brush after scraping, particularly when I am rushing out in the morning!
 

Polo

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Stupid questions: does rotobrushing eliminate the need for scraping? Is a rotobrushed ski faster than a hand brushed ski? Is there a big learning curve?

You always want to scrape before brushing, regardless of if you are using hand or roto brushes. Remember, you want the wax in the ski, not on the ski.

If scraping is a PITA for you, it's likely your scraper is dull. Never can have to many scrapers and keep them sharp with a good scraper sharpener, whether it be home made or store bought, they are a valuable tool on any bench.

Scraping can also be a PITA if you're using cold temp wax. If you are using a cold temp/hard wax maybe try scraping a little sooner before the wax is completely cooled, it'll make scraping a little easier.

As I said in an earlier post, roto brushes are great for overlays and polishing and just kind of ok at wax removal. Typically, my first brush, post scraping, is a well worn steel followed by a medium bronze, both are oval brushes, then either a oval horsehair or roto horsehair. Be mindful about using rotobrushes and how hard you push down because if you push to hard you'll just fold the bristles over and they become less affective and you'll get kind of a smeared finish instead of a well cleaned out structure. I usually will lightly mist the base with a water bottle before I use a roto.
 

Pdub

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Thanks ScotSkier and Polo, that makes sense. Around here the racer community seems to be focused on edges edges edges to the exclusion of waxing and brushing. That's probably a function of cold/icy conditions and young racers (i.e. mostly tech events.)

That Mantac sharpener is $180, which equals 36 scrapers! I guess it's worth it if you're in it for the long haul...as I said I absolutely hate scraping! A new sharp scraper is such a joy!

Could you recommend a good single source that teaches base prep for racing skis?
 

Frankly

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[QUOTE="Pdub, post: 156891, member: 2348"}That Mantac sharpener is $180, which equals 36 scrapers! I guess it's worth it if you're in it for the long haul...as I said I absolutely hate scraping! A new sharp scraper is such a joy!
[/QUOTE]

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The manual version works too.... Or just use a file and try to keep things square.
 

Pdub

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I have a similar tool, and sometimes I use a Panzer file to sharpen scrapers. It helps but it's nothing like a breaking out a fresh scraper.
 

Polo

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That Mantac sharpener is $180, which equals 36 scrapers! I guess it's worth it if you're in it for the long haul...as I said I absolutely hate scraping! A new sharp scraper is such a joy!

I hear what you're saying but having had a Mantac for many years, there are a lot tools on my tuning bench I'd give up before my Mantac. ;)
 

ScotsSkier

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Thanks ScotSkier and Polo, that makes sense. Around here the racer community seems to be focused on edges edges edges to the exclusion of waxing and brushing. That's probably a function of cold/icy conditions and young racers (i.e. mostly tech events.)

That Mantac sharpener is $180, which equals 36 scrapers! I guess it's worth it if you're in it for the long haul...as I said I absolutely hate scraping! A new sharp scraper is such a joy!

Could you recommend a good single source that teaches base prep for racing skis?

:eek: yes. I remember! I raced Masters in New England for a couple of seasons when I started - I have vivid memories of a slalom on a freezing cold, icy pitch at Wildcat where IIRC half the field went out. I was still very much a newbie to racing and I was sliding sideways and hanging on for grim death!!! I podiumed in class simply because all the good guys failed to finish!!

So, edges are indeed critical! (even here in Far West!!) For GS you also want to have a good wax job though. For that type of cold icy conditions I have found Holmenkol Ultra (blue) with a little bit of Beta (red) gives a really fast base and some of they best results. And it works over a wider temp range (at the high end) than Holmenkol marks on the box!


I too had sticker shock and questioned myself before I bought the Mantac, but as Polo says, it has become an essential tool. Another cheap way of doing it more effectively than the panzer file approach (if a bit more tricky!!!) is to use an electric planer sitting upside down and run the scraper across it. Just watch your fingers!!!:rolleyes:
 

KingGrump

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I too had sticker shock and questioned myself before I bought the Mantac, but as Polo says, it has become an essential tool. Another cheap way of doing it more effectively than the panzer file approach (if a bit more tricky!!!) is to use an electric planer sitting upside down and run the scraper across it. Just watch your fingers!!!:rolleyes:

Agree the upside down electric plane is a scary thing.

I use the Mantac when I am on the road. Which is most of the season. Love it for its weight and size.

At home I use a router table with the output side of the fence shimmed out by 1/32". Basically a horizontal jointer.
With the router bit properly guarded, it is lots safer than the gaping maw of the electric plane.
 

Yo Momma

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Here is the quote from @Philpug on the other thread as to the non-scraping method: " I have taken the express route. Heat wax bar on the iron then while hot, rub onto base. Then iron slowly with no pressure, no rotation of the iron, lightly with temps that the wax look clear for abotu 4-6" behind the iron. With this method, there is very little excess wax on the ski, so there is no need to scrape. I will take a blue shop towel under the iron then go from tip to tail which will absorb most of the wax then I wil rotobrush once cool. No scraping, very little waste or mess. " Someone w/ more skills than I can possibly link these two threads!! :beercheer:

As a convert I can vouch for this method........ has saved me a TON of mess.

The other thing is PLEASE as @James referenced these thing throw stuff everywhere, use eye protection during these processes .......... especially rotobrushing ........or end up like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=Den...jY_XAhWH1IMKHQvTCHUQ_AUICigB&biw=1344&bih=748
 
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James

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^^Yeah and Phil also has a really nice roto handle with sealed bearings. Pro model. Well over $100, no shield. So nice to use though. Feels great.

But if you have a sharp scraper that saves time with even just one pass.
Whatever works for you. Scraping and rorobrushing is messy. It's not recommended for an apartment in a city.

The reason racers are so obsessed with scraping and brushing is usually the first run on those skis is from the start line. They carry the skis to the race. Wax that fills in the structure is slow, slow, slow. Now even if you have a junior that's going to ski on their race skis before the race, it's unlikely they will wear out, or the snow brushes out, all the wax. There will usually be wax left in the middle shovel and tail. This is slow when the ski is flat. Which is between every direction change and during straight tucks.

For rec skiing there's nothing like the phhhssshhhh... of good glide as the ski accelerates. It helps on traverses and runouts too. Freshly waxed and brushed are slippery getting to the lift. Can make you feel like a beginner. It takes a little adjustment.
 
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Chris Walker

Chris Walker

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Here is the quote from @Philpug on the other thread as to the non-scraping method: " I have taken the express route. Heat wax bar on the iron then while hot, rub onto base. Then iron slowly with no pressure, no rotation of the iron, lightly with temps that the wax look clear for abotu 4-6" behind the iron. With this method, there is very little excess wax on the ski, so there is no need to scrape. I will take a blue shop towel under the iron then go from tip to tail which will absorb most of the wax then I wil rotobrush once cool. No scraping, very little waste or mess. " Someone w/ more skills than I can possibly link these two threads!! :beercheer:

As a convert I can vouch for this method........ has saved me a TON of mess.

The other thing is PLEASE as @James referenced these thing throw stuff everywhere, use eye protection during these processes .......... especially rotobrushing ........or end up like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=Den...jY_XAhWH1IMKHQvTCHUQ_AUICigB&biw=1344&bih=748

I am also a convert to this method, but I will still scrape before brushing. Just a lot less scraping than with the drip-on method (one or two passes with a sharp scraper and light pressure). I just think the Phil Method(tm) still leaves a tad more wax on the bases than I personally would like to be there before I start brushing. Of course I might just be doing it wrong. :huh:

I use eye protection any time I am using any power tool. I've reviewed too many workplace accident reports to mess around with that.
 

Jacques

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I tell you guys, just forget about plastic scrapers. Get a quality steel scraper. Be sure to debur it with some 220 or higher grit paper.
As long as the steel is not burred your not going to hurt your bases.
You might need to sharpen it once in on a blue moon.
Save a plastic scraper for the edges.
 

Frankly

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I tell you guys, just forget about plastic scrapers. Get a quality steel scraper. Be sure to debur it with some 220 or higher grit paper.
As long as the steel is not burred your not going to hurt your bases.
You might need to sharpen it once in on a blue moon.
Save a plastic scraper for the edges.

Sacrebleu! This is the Devil speaking heresy!
 

weatherman

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You can also sharpen scrapers with a drywall sanding screen. Use a block of wood as a guide to keep the scraper vertical. I did that for a while, but have the Mantac now. I love my toys.
 

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