Drill Tips and drills for for-aft balance?

[Mike King]

https://skimoves.me/2014/03/03/the-birdcage-data-world-prem
You bend the ski by aligning the CoM over the ski and edging it. No need to lever the boot. Look at the data above -- pressure relatively constant under the heel, greater variability in pressure under the forefoot ascribed to pronation of the foot after pressure (foot to foot) change. Nadine Gruenenfelder (Swiss Demo team, former WC GS specialist) talks about pressure moving from a bias toward the ball of the foot in initiation toward the heel in the finish of the turn. But that's for expert level skiing.

The OP has stated his skill level elsewhere as an intermediate skier. While expert skiing may involve some small movement fore and aft on the ski, that's a skill that is well beyond an intermediate (and many expert) skiers. First an intermediate skier has to find center.

As to the photo you posted, it is pretty difficult to identify leverage from a single photo. When I look at videos of his skiing, I do not see leverage.

Mike

 

[JESinstr]

https://skimoves.me/2014/03/03/the-birdcage-data-world-prem
You bend the ski by aligning the CoM over the ski and edging it. No need to lever the boot. Look at the data above -- pressure relatively constant under the heel, greater variability in pressure under the forefoot ascribed to pronation of the foot after pressure (foot to foot) change. Nadine Gruenenfelder (Swiss Demo team, former WC GS specialist) talks about pressure moving from a bias toward the ball of the foot in initiation toward the heel in the finish of the turn. But that's for expert level skiing.

The OP has stated his skill level elsewhere as an intermediate skier. While expert skiing may involve some small movement fore and aft on the ski, that's a skill that is well beyond an intermediate (and many expert) skiers. First an intermediate skier has to find center.

As to the photo you posted, it is pretty difficult to identify leverage from a single photo. When I look at videos of his skiing, I do not see leverage.

Mike

Interesting and worthy of consideration. And I also agree that a skier needs to find center. So were does flexing of the ankle come in to all of this? Isn't there pressure to the tongue of the boot when we flex ?

 

[Mike King]

Go back to the charts showing pressure on the cuff -- there's virtually none, and what there is is more biased to the rear than to the front. Sure, flexion of the knee and hip coupled with dorsiflexion of the ankle is going to move the tibia forward, but it isn't because one is levering the front of the boot. Rather, the skier should be stacked over the center of the ski. Extreme flexion may yield some pressure on the tongue and cuff, but it's because they are managing the forces in the turn, rather than attempting to bend the front of the ski. We want to bend the whole ski, not part of it. At least as I understand these things.

Perhaps it's my lousy technique, but as I've moved off of the front of the boot to the center (and what feels to me as being very far aft), I've gone from having too much pressure in the finish of the turn to being able to have "impulse" across the hill. With rebound out of the ski. And what all of my coaches, mainly demo team members, tell me is that the key to ski performance is being in the center of the ski.

Mike

 

[Fishbowl]

Many folks have trouble one ski skiing because they're letting the ski that's off the snow dangle in space. When it's tipped to the little toe side and steered as well, magic happens.

Could you expand on this statement a little. I do lighten and tip my "free" ski, but have never considered that it could be steered as well?

 

[Dave Marshak]

There is nothing complicated about it. What it can be and probably is, is CONFUSING!

For some reason this comment reminded me of a lesson I gave a long time ago. The boss asked me to give a private lesson for a student who was unhappy with her beginner lesson. When I met her she was in tears, and said that her first instructor had said she was "stupid!"
I told her that didn't matter, because I was the dumbest guy on the mountain but I could still ski better than almost anyone. The lesson went fine after that. I even got a hug at the end of it.
I'm sticking with paying attention to sensations, and leaving the physics out of it.

dm

 

[Zentune]

A couple of thoughts; One, if the toes are lifted, then how can they spread when under load (i.e. Ground Reaction Force, grf)? True there isn't much room for toe/metatarsal spread in most boots (a topic for another discussion perhaps), but they still will "want" to, during the load pause as the outside foot moves towards supination...and two, how can the boot be flexed appreciably though dorsiflexion alone? Perhaps it's the turn forces that flex the boot for us......

Now true, we can and should control the cm/bos relationship along the length of the ski, but which way is most efficient and effective??

These are all rhetorical of course....but fodder for discussion nonetheless.

zenny

 

[Zentune]

And a final thought for now---postural awareness and dynamic (and static) balancing arise from signals that originate from the interaction between the feet and the ground....not the shins imo. My shins bones are mostly there to tell me when I run into the coffee table at night

zenny

 

[James]

And a final thought for now---postural awareness and dynamic (and static) balancing arise from signals that originate from the interaction between the feet and the ground....not the shins imo. My shins bones are mostly there to tell me when I run into the coffee table at night

zenny

Not sure I buy that. Though it ain't the shins, I agree.
I'm constantly amazed when doing subway, train, or bus surfing how little the feet have to do with stability. (Surfing is just standing without touching anything and trying to maintain balance without moving the feet.)

It seems to be all core. Concentrate on moving belly button to spine, balance instantly improves and one becomes much more stable. It really is a freaky thing. Everytime I try to do it by feeling feet on ground, feel toes connected to the ground - it seems to make no difference! Maybe even makes it worse. Now maybe some info is being sensed by the feet, i don't know.

Perhaps @Brian Finch has some insights?

 

[Zentune]

^^^ If the foot can't articulate optimally, or is "forced" not to, then is your core in the "right spot"? Is it stable in the right way---atop the foot with the cg and cm lining up favorably (so we don't fall over)?

As an example, when the foot is pronating, the leg is busy rotating internally as a consequence, and vice-verca...when the foot is supinating, the leg is rotating externally. And so on up the chain...

What does stability mean, when while skiing we are in constant motion?

zenny

 

[Uke]

Skiing, the art of just standing there at 20+ miles per hour.

uke

 

[James]

If the foot can't articulate optimally, or is "forced" not to, then is your core in the "right spot"?

Yes, very good point. Screw up the foot and you're toast. If it goes numb or is overly constrained you're screwed too.

Skiing, the art of just standing there at 20+ miles per hour.

uke

Hah. There is something to that actually. David MacPhail talks a lot about walking.
But to zenny's point also, an unconstrained foot is really important in his work. Well, properly constrained.

 

[john petersen]

There is nothing complicated about it. What it can be and probably is, is CONFUSING!
You did indeed hit the nail on the head when you said "your body feels them as one force" But the reality is one force pulls and the other pushes. The one that pulls (gravity) is the default and elicits defensive mechanics from the skier. The one that pushes is centripetal and requires offensive mechanics developed by the skier.
The crux of the issue is that the developing skier feels gravity's straight line pull and centripetal's equal and opposite centrifugal (outward fleeing) force as the same So for the learning to ski folks the odds are that the will apply defensive (safety) mechanics
I am puzzled at why this fundamental of fundamentals is so ignored during the teaching process. I believe that at least instructors should have an understanding. I am reminded of the line from the wizard of oz: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

thank you, thank you, thank you, JESinstr

I have been working on a theory and preaching and teaching to the hills about this distinction. I think the reason it is not taught much, is because it is technical and based on physics and Newton and stuff and folks just dont want to go there. Buuuuuuutttttt, it does not have to be once you understand what is going on and figure out a way to explain it in simple terms.

Here goes....centripetal is the force. there is no debating this one. technically its the force that pushes on an object that is turning around a circle or arc towards the middle of that arc...BUT

what we FEEL, the sensation we register is a term we have coined as centrifugal force....its a mixture of the real force acting on us when we are turning and a personified SENSATION that we have called centrifugal. why personified?....to understand the sensation, you have to imagine you are the material inside a glass beaker clicked into a centrifuge that is spinning around and around forcing that material to the outside of the beaker and toward the outside of the arc the beaker is traveling in.

so the material in a beaker or the rock in David's sling, the water in a twirling pail, yourself in a turning car with your cheek against the window.........(personified, the material, the rock and the water can "feel" these forces...)

If we dont react to the forces of gravity and centripetal appropriately and in a timely fashion, we will either be thrown into the woods, go into a slide or tip over.

can I ask for a distinction between defensive and offensive mechanics when dealing with gravity and centripetal force respectively?.....

who is the skier? some of us or all of us?

I think what you are saying is that if we can understand the distinction, then perhaps we can better teach how to manage these forces from wedge turns to performance turns, yes?

me too, me too....

I am asking us all to see if this makes sense:

Centripetal is the force
Centrifugal is the sensation

so lets call it that. Centrifugal Sensation



JP
Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkle Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs

 

[Swede]

And here's a complete fore/aft video with a couple of drills (mentioned here, like the outside ski-drill and falling leafs) as well as some pressure talk. Seppo does a good job of explaining in a few words (typical Finn).

 

[oldschoolskier]

My favorite balance drill(s) are 360's and their variations. Not only do they work on fore/aft but also edge to edge and so on.

I got introduced to these at the age of 16 by a top level instructor, and still do a 360 spin left and right at the start of the season for the first few runs for balance memory. Subsequent to that at least a simple partial (1/4L 1/4R) daily just to keep on top of edge feel.

Simple side slips while waiting for friends to catch up.

Simple stuff such as this makes a huge difference long term as positive and negative reinforcement are immediate.

As to all the variations, I'll turn this over to the true instructors. My suggestion is pick a couple you enjoy and do these ones regularly.

For me 360's, 360's with pauses, 1/4's and side slips are among my go to sets. At all speeds and all skis, all tunes.

 

[markojp]

Not sure I buy that. Though it ain't the shins, I agree.
I'm constantly amazed when doing subway, train, or bus surfing how little the feet have to do with stability. (Surfing is just standing without touching anything and trying to maintain balance without moving the feet.)

It seems to be all core. Concentrate on moving belly button to spine, balance instantly improves and one becomes much more stable. It really is a freaky thing. Everytime I try to do it be feeling feet on ground, feel toes connected to the ground - it seems to make no difference! Maybe even makes it worse. Now maybe some info is being sensed by the feet, i don't know.

Perhaps @Brian Finch has some insights?

FWIW, I don't think core and feet are mutually exclusive in the discussion. One is the CoM, the other, the BoS. If you stand on one foot and close your eyes, you quickly feel the muscles of the feet triggering and 'correcting'. It's also much easier to do with functional core tension.

(So I"ve heard, old folks often suffer catastrophic falls because they've lost a great deal of strength (through inactivity) in the muscles from the knee down. Makes sense, but it's anecdotal.)

 

[Mendieta]

And here's a complete fore/aft video with a couple of drills (mentioned here, like the outside ski-drill and falling leafs) as well as some pressure talk. Seppo does a good job of explaining in a few words (typical Finn).

This video puts together a lot of the suggestions made above, yes. Cheers for that, @Swede . And thank you all for a phenomenal discussion so far, and lots of info. If I have the time, I will try to summarize it all in one post. You guys rock!

BTW: for anybody new to skiing reading this: CoM stands for Center of Mass, which must be at the right place for proper balance, and BoS stands for base of support, basically your skis in contact with the snow, and whatever you do with your feet to use that base optimally can also affect your balance, like @markojp was just pointing out.

 

[Mendieta]

For the summer...inline skates. Find a parking lot with a slight grade and start carving turns. Having to balance on a 12" platform is great summer training and you will see a huge difference when you get back on snow. You cannot be in the backseat on skates, You will be on your butt.

Another vote for the use of ski blades or shirt skis. Drills have their place, but nothing beats the instant feedback of a physical limitation.

As @Philpug suggested, inline skates are a great way to work on centered balance in the off season. To really challenge yourself, hit the skatepark and learn to carve some of the ramps and bowls. Learning to maintain balance through transistions is a skill that will pay dividends on the slopes, especially in the bump fields.

How about ice skating? Would that be similar (and even closer to skiing), and a good workout off-season?

 

[Philpug]

How about ice skating? Would that be similar (and even closer to skiing), and a good workout off-season?

Sure..if you can find a downhill rink

 

[Mendieta]

Sure..if you can find a downhill rink

This thread is going downhill But skating in a flat is probably good for balance, and fore-aft awareness, anyways?

 

[Mike King]

This thread is going downhill But skating in a flat is probably good for balance, and fore-aft awareness, anyways?

Absolutely. I've taken up inline skating this summer to increase my athleticism. It is petrifying! Initially I tried skating in front of my house but as there is a slight downhill and I lack the ability to stop, I've retreated to the inline hockey rink. Skating there has brought a lot of awareness of fore/aft balance as well as allowing a lot of work on lateral strength, a weakness of mine as I have torn labrum in both hips.

There's a lot of similarities between inline skating and skiing. I'm hoping this all pays off this coming season, presuming I can avoid the observation of my strength coach: "there are two types of inline skaters--those who have broken a bone, and those waiting to break a bone."