Drill Tips and drills for for-aft balance?

[KingGrump]

I NEVER ask anyone to do that anymore. The cuff of the boot is the lever that opens the binding, and the heel may not release with the buckles open. I've seen at least one skier come out of her boot doing that, which risks sending the ski down the hill.

dm

Oh yeah, forgot the caveats on skiing with boots unbuckled.
Never do it with rental boots. They generally run several sizes too yuge.

Make sure your boots fits well. Always keep the power strap snug. Don't have to kill it. Start with unbuckling the two on the clog. Work up to the ones on the cuff.
Some boots don't have the lateral stiffness to allow the top buckle to be undone and still perform well. In that case, buckle the top buckle but leave it loose.

The general idea is to allow your legs to reach the ground rather than be truncated at the shin.
Oh, did I say start on the really easy stuff first.

Have fun.

 

[Swede]

Thank you, @Swede are javelin turns any different? Or are these outside-to-outside turns, simply perfectly linked javelin turns? An easier version of this, I believe, is the drill suggested by @T-Square above where you just lift the heel of the inside ski. That would be a nice progression to focus on.

Had to look Javelin up, yeah they are similar but still very different. Just do normal carved medium turns and lift the inside up. Transition is key. More or less impossible to do unless you are forward. US ski team has some great video on their site too, but I couldn't figure how to link to it. Just google it.

Edit:

here it is

http://alpine.usskiteam.com/alpine-...t/exercises-by-skill/edging/outside-ski-turns

 

[john petersen]

good thread you guys.

Fore/aft drills can be ramped up from easier to more difficult... same terrain at first, different exercises.

Straight run. easy terrain to start. not much speed generated in a straight run to really focus on the movements and sensations.

Where can you generate fore/aft movements from?....You can play with this from the ground up to see what combinations works for you...I think in general of 3-4 zones of the body that need to be understood so you know how to dial in fore/aft movements in each of them while skiing different types of terrain... Feet/lower legs. thighs/hip sockets. hips/lower spine. upper spine/shoulders/head....(from the ground up)

Starting from the ground up:
• slide your feet backwards and forwards. The movement is generated from the feet only and involves the ankles, shins and knees, but not much at all in the hip joint...
*what you should feel: feet squirting gently forward and backwards, an opening and closing of the ankles, and using up most of the range of motion in your boots in both directions. (Im not talking about maxxing out the FLEX your boot is designed for, just the range of motion of your legs, socks, liner, buckle adjustment, powerstrap, ect) I consider this fine tuning.
*max it out: without allowing your hip sockets to rotate much at all, how far can you move your feet forward and backward?

•slide your feet and legs forward and backwards from the hip sockets. same terrain. This movement is generated at the feet and involves the above areas but adds more hip socket rotation.
• what you should feel: feet and legs moving forward and backwards, opening and closing of the ankles and more whole leg involvement which adds more pressure to your boot cuffs (front and back) . This move is generally just a bit slower than the the above, let it be.
*max it out: you should also feel yourself counter balancing a little with your torso and upper body......how far you let your legs move back and forth determines how in or out of balance you feel....explore this until, perhaps, you lift the tips of the skis off the ground on one end, and the tails at the other. .....that is maxxed out for this exercise....Please dont go too far and release your bindings!

*Grey area.....experimenting myself this year.....Hip tilt. its a fore/aft movement, but very subtle and a little elusive to feel. BUT.......rotate the pelvic floor forward and top of the pelvis backward. you can think of this as curving your lower spine forward, but its better to think of a tightening of the core, bringing your pubic bone towards your belly button, ect....the other end of the spectrum is a pelvic tilt in the other direction, or sticking your butt out by curving your lower spine backward.....
•what you should feel: tightening of the core, lower back pushing forward, hip sockets coming forward....in the forward direction. In the other direction, hiney sticking out, lower back curving that way too.....
*Value????? skeletal alignment in a very important but often overlooked area of the body and how it all relates to functional skeletal alignment, stance, readiness. If you are lined up here....basically involving the core, you will be more stable. This takes practice to feel....you can do it in the office, in a chair, walking, skiing.......(think of doing pushups and letting your core relax when you are tired...your back arches and starts to hurt....but, if you keep your core tight, you stabilize your whole body and can get a few more push ups into the set!)

Okay, that gets us to upper body focus.....which switches where the movements come from. We need to feel what its like for our upper bodies to generate fore aft movements so that we can use this to our advantage tactically, but as a way to ski, we all know to keep that under control........but its worth exploring because this is a good example of another and total body skill blend......and I think its a big key to upper level skiing!

Blend the 3-4 areas of your body together so they work in concert, regulate them all for a strong stance, and you will learn how to dial it in on steeps, bumps, ect.....

regulate pressure along the length of your skis............com/bos..its gigantic.


JP

 

[Philpug]

I recall an instructor telling me that the always start the day and teach their students to ski n an unbucked boots and it was the best way to learn. I looked down and realized that they were in 150 flex plug boots and thought it dodn't matter if that boot was buckled or not, the foot was not going anywhere in the boot anyway.

 

[MikeS]

This is the drill I was talking about:

I agree with outside ski to outside ski being an excellent drill to keep you balanced. If you're concerned about being in the back seat, a variation you can add is to lift the inside boot off the snow, but keep the ski tip on the snow. I have yet to find a way to keep that tip down on the snow while in the back seat. Play around with it both ways, and see what works.

A drill that is a bit more advanced, but will definitely help you with your fore/aft balance are leapers. They're a pretty standard PSIA Level 2 exam task, and they certainly work. If you watch the Burke video above, you see the demonstrator do this little hop as she goes for the edge change. A leaper is essentially that, except you're doing it with both feet down, and you make the hop bigger. The idea is that you get your skis up off the snow, and change edges in the air. It doesn't have to be a huge flying leap, just enough to get your edges off the snow. When you land, you need to land in balance, or your skis will run away from you. You learn to leap forward and land centered very quickly.

 

[PTskier]

I do not like curling the toes up or down or anything else. A skier with the muscles tensed in the foot or anywhere won't ski as well as they could. The point about unbuckled boots not working as a lever to release the bindings when needed is a good point. Forget the talk about ankle flexion---we have very small muscles there, and there isn't much they can do.

So...do this. Stand up right now. Feel where your weight is on your feet--heels, even, where? Now balance on the balls of your feet without lifting your heels off the floor. This is how you ski. It works every time. It's easy. It's easy to remember, easy to do, easy to return to when we're back in our old bad habits. Think of all the other athletic activities we do on the balls of our feet--dance, bicycle, tennis, you name it. Skiing, too. Think of that tennis coach yelling at you, "Get off your heels!"

When skiing use your strong hamstring muscles that run down the backs of your legs. Pull both feet back as the first movement to start a turn. Pull both feet back strongly for a sharper turn or a steeper turn. Pull both feet back strongly when the skis go over a drop off such as the edge of a mogul.* Keep your inside foot pulled strongly back all the way through every turn. It's like turning on power steering.

*Conversely, push both feet forward when the tips need to be lightened such as skiing off the groom into an unpacked ridge or on the up-side of washboard. Then immediately pull them back to re-center and get back on the balls of your feet.

 

[Uke]

It may be time to fire up the popcorn maker.

 

[JESinstr]

I agree with outside ski to outside ski being an excellent drill to keep you balanced. If you're concerned about being in the back seat, a variation you can add is to lift the inside boot off the snow, but keep the ski tip on the snow. I have yet to find a way to keep that tip down on the snow while in the back seat. Play around with it both ways, and see what works.

A drill that is a bit more advanced, but will definitely help you with your fore/aft balance are leapers. They're a pretty standard PSIA Level 2 exam task, and they certainly work. If you watch the Burke video above, you see the demonstrator do this little hop as she goes for the edge change. A leaper is essentially that, except you're doing it with both feet down, and you make the hop bigger. The idea is that you get your skis up off the snow, and change edges in the air. It doesn't have to be a huge flying leap, just enough to get your edges off the snow. When you land, you need to land in balance, or your skis will run away from you. You learn to leap forward and land centered very quickly.

Some drills have unintended consequences. While I like the hop aspect for fore/aft balance, IMO the way the Burke Video demos it, there is a potential for a park and ride scenario to develop. No big deal but keeping the inside ski in the air for such a long time limits the mechanics of edge development.

 

[Fishbowl]

Another vote for the use of ski blades or shirt skis. Drills have their place, but nothing beats the instant feedback of a physical limitation.

As @Philpug suggested, inline skates are a great way to work on centered balance in the off season. To really challenge yourself, hit the skatepark and learn to carve some of the ramps and bowls. Learning to maintain balance through transistions is a skill that will pay dividends on the slopes, especially in the bump fields.

 

[Mike King]

Sideslips are a great exercise for discovering where you are on the ski. From a countered position, release the skis -- where do you go? Forward (pressure point is forward of the binding) or backwards (pressure point is aft of the bindings)? Or are you traveling straight down the fall line?

An important aspect of fore/aft balance is where you feel pressure along the bottom of the foot. Many ski instructors suggested to students that they should be on the balls of the foot in an athletic stance. I do not think this is right. You should feel pressure along the entirety of the sole of the foot, but where the pressure is greatest should be under the heel or just in front of the heel.

I'm also not a fan of pulling your toes up -- this tends to move you too far forward.

So, go out and experiment. Use sideslips to provide instant feedback on where the pressure point is on the ski. Find the center of the ski and try to pick up on the body cues that can help to provide you with feedback on where you are on the ski.

Mike

ps: Javelin turns are great for body alignment, but probably aren't great at fore/aft balance (IMO).

 

[KingGrump]

An important aspect of fore/aft balance is where you feel pressure along the bottom of the foot. Many ski instructors suggested to students that they should be on the balls of the foot in an athletic stance. I do not think this is right. You should feel pressure along the entirety of the sole of the foot, but where the pressure is greatest should be under the heel or just in front of the heel.

That is money right there.

 

[T-Square]

Sideslips are great. Add falling leaves for fore and aft balance. Then step it up to pivot slips. You have to be centered to do pivot slips smoothly.

 

[Swede]

IMO the way the Burke Video demos it, there is a potential for a park and ride scenario to develop. No big deal but keeping the inside ski in the air for such a long time limits the mechanics of edge development.

Keeping it up through out a complete turn is very important. If you put the inside ski down too early or transit too early, you're probably not in balance. I think it is safe to assume that the Burke-girls in the video (Olivia and Brigitte) are capable of some very aggressive and dynamic skiing with high edge angles.
Personally I agree with Lewis in the USSA-clip, it is my go-to drill whenever I feel a little off. It instantly snaps me back into the right balance.

 

[markojp]

Keeping it up through out a complete turn is very important. If you put the inside ski down too early or transit too early, you're probably not in balance. I think it is safe to assume that the Burke-girls in the video (Olivia and Brigitte) are capable of some very aggressive and dynamic skiing with high edge angles.
Personally I agree with Lewis in the USSA-clip, it is my go-to drill whenever I feel a little off. It instantly snaps me back into the right balance.

Agree 100%, and the way to solve JESinstr concern is actively tipping the inside ski while it's in the air. Many folks have trouble one ski skiing because they're letting the ski that's off the snow dangle in space. When it's tipped to the little toe side and steered as well, magic happens.

 

[JESinstr]

Sideslips are a great exercise for discovering where you are on the ski. From a countered position, release the skis -- where do you go? Forward (pressure point is forward of the binding) or backwards (pressure point is aft of the bindings)? Or are you traveling straight down the fall line?

An important aspect of fore/aft balance is where you feel pressure along the bottom of the foot. Many ski instructors suggested to students that they should be on the balls of the foot in an athletic stance. I do not think this is right. You should feel pressure along the entirety of the sole of the foot, but where the pressure is greatest should be under the heel or just in front of the heel.

I'm also not a fan of pulling your toes up -- this tends to move you too far forward.

So, go out and experiment. Use sideslips to provide instant feedback on where the pressure point is on the ski. Find the center of the ski and try to pick up on the body cues that can help to provide you with feedback on where you are on the ski.

Mike

ps: Javelin turns are great for body alignment, but probably aren't great at fore/aft balance (IMO).

Mike, because you started your post talking about straight line travel (side slipping) and ended it talking about turns, I just want to make sure people don't get confused.

It is very important that skiers understand that when we talk about balance we understand that there are 2 types of forces to be dealt with and balance against. They are straight line force and circular (turning) force.

Sideslipping is a straight line activity and the dynamics of balance for this force is totally different in purpose and range than that required for a turn where you are trying to shape the ski in search of circular travel.

If your intent is to make a turn, your first obligation is to leverage forward and get the shovels bending until sufficient turning forces (shaping forces) are developed. This is not going to happen with your mass positioned over or slightly ahead of your heel.

Straight line dynamic balance is inherent and instinctive. It is what we deal with every day. Developing turning force is not and (on skis) requires a much wider range of fore and aft balance skills. So I just wanted to make sure that people understood your post was related to straight line travel. IMO javelin turns are no different than any other turn, turning force dynamic balance skills apply.

 

[Dave Marshak]

It is very important that skiers understand that when we talk about balance we understand that there are 2 types of forces to be dealt with and balance against. They are straight line force and circular (turning) force.

That's way over-complicating it. There is gravity and there are dynamic forces caused by acceleration, but they all act on the mass of you body, and your body feels them as one force of variable strength and direction. If you are trying to resolve those forces into specific different components, you are thinking too much to perform effectively, and definitely too distracted to enjoy the experience.

dm

 

[Dave Marshak]

I do not like curling the toes up or down or anything else. A skier with the muscles tensed in the foot or anywhere won't ski as well as they could. .

I'm also not a fan of pulling your toes up -- this tends to move you too far forward.

I frequently pull my toes up, but it doesn't necessarily pull me forward. It's just a way to direct my attention to my feet where it belongs. Mostly when I do it I realize that I had been skiing with my toes clenched, so my feet end up less tense rather than more tense. But it's not the way to ski for any length of time, or a technique cause a specific outcome.

So, go out and experiment. Use sideslips to provide instant feedback on where the pressure point is on the ski. Find the center of the ski and try to pick up on the body cues that can help to provide you with feedback on where you are on the ski.

^^^^This.

dm

 

[Mike King]

If your intent is to make a turn, your first obligation is to leverage forward and get the shovels bending until sufficient turning forces (shaping forces) are developed. This is not going to happen with your mass positioned over or slightly ahead of your heel.

I disagree. If you look at JF Beaulieu's (and many others) skiing, you will not see any leveraging forward. There were a variety of experiments instrumenting World Cup and recreational skiers. The difference? World Cup skiers put virtually no force on the forward or aft cuff of the boot. Where was the pressure on the bottom of the foot? Along the entire bottom of the foot. With pressure fluctuating on the ball of the foot.

When you "lever" the front of the boot, you loose engagement of the tail. Being in the center of the ski allows you to bend the whole ski and engage the entire edge.

Mike

 

[JESinstr]

I disagree. If you look at JF Beaulieu's (and many others) skiing, you will not see any leveraging forward. There were a variety of experiments instrumenting World Cup and recreational skiers. The difference? World Cup skiers put virtually no force on the forward or aft cuff of the boot. Where was the pressure on the bottom of the foot? Along the entire bottom of the foot. With pressure fluctuating on the ball of the foot.

When you "lever" the front of the boot, you loose engagement of the tail. Being in the center of the ski allows you to bend the whole ski and engage the entire edge.

Mike

Mike,
If you are stopped on the top of a bunny hill and begin to move with the intention of making a turn, how do you create initial pressure to start bending the skis?
Are you simply relying on your dead weight and side cut or do you try to leverage it? or..... do you rotate to bypass the circle creation process?

I think the missing contextual ingredient to here is velocity. Again, if the intent is to create circular travel, velocity at turn inception has a lot to do with where we dynamically manage our balance along the length of the ski. So I don't disagree with what you are saying but where you balance on a ski is constantly changing depending on speed and where you are in terms of arc development and completion.


"If you look at JF Beaulieu's (and many others) skiing, you will not see any leveraging forward."
" World Cup skiers put virtually no force on the forward or aft cuff of the boot."

????

JFB

 

[JESinstr]

That's way over-complicating it. There is gravity and there are dynamic forces caused by acceleration, but they all act on the mass of you body, and your body feels them as one force of variable strength and direction. If you are trying to resolve those forces into specific different components, you are thinking too much to perform effectively, and definitely too distracted to enjoy the experience.

dm

There is nothing complicated about it. What it can be and probably is, is CONFUSING!

You did indeed hit the nail on the head when you said "your body feels them as one force" But the reality is one force pulls and the other pushes. The one that pulls (gravity) is the default and elicits defensive mechanics from the skier. The one that pushes is centripetal and requires offensive mechanics developed by the skier.

The crux of the issue is that the developing skier feels gravity's straight line pull and centripetal's equal and opposite centrifugal (outward fleeing) force as the same So for the learning to ski folks the odds are that the will apply defensive (safety) mechanics

I am puzzled at why this fundamental of fundamentals is so ignored during the teaching process. I believe that at least instructors should have an understanding. I am reminded of the line from the wizard of oz: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"