The "Once in a Decade" Ski

[James]

Or maybe @Philpug @Andy Mink @Sierrajim @Jed Peters @TahoeCharlie @Unpiste @textrovert @Mendieta and myself and others could get together sooner to A/B them . . . We are all big enough and/or skilled enough skiers.

It would be a fun format to put something like that into a conversation that revolves around a day of several people actually skiing these (and perhaps others) together.

Don't know how anything could be sooner than one week from now!. Or less.

Looks like the Z-Series has a fair amount of rocker in the tail. Seems more so than a lot of skis. What does this do for a ski? Do you need to adjust length for this design?

Well I didn't really remember the side profile when I tried the z-90 in 174. It does not ski like a design with a lot of rocker I can say that. It loved carving on packed powder and rewards subtle edge angle input. Something a very rockered ski does not. One of the most fun skis in those conditions ever and I wasn't the only one who felt that.

Releasing the tail? Why would one want to do that? - Release not thy tail before it's time.

I don't see that as an issue here but those who have it need to answer. The answer is likely if that's an issue you want a different profile ski- more tail rocker or softer tail, rounder tail. Some or all of those elements.

@markojp could speak to these issues.

One can also go to a so called "radial tune" where there's more base bevel in the tip and tail. Common is 1deg to .7 or even .5 in the middle, 1deg in tail. Most medern robotic machines, all?, will do that. Personally I'm not a huge fan so far. I find the center base bevel really sets the tone for the ski. Having a low one like .5 makes the center feel like it's glued down. If I want that feel I usually want the whole thing to bite.
I do think adding a bit more base bevel in tip or tail is much better than dulling the usable edge- which is still common unfortunately even in 2017. Butchery is everywhere. But adding that little more base bevel is more work and care- time, than dulling.

 

[skibob]

Don't know how anything could be sooner than one week from now!. Or less.

Ha! Ya got me there. I was thinking next year

 

[Mendieta]

FWIW, neither the 180 Z-90 or 177 Titan ski 'long' at all. I'm assuming the Z77 is similar in that regard. The Z90 would be a great western OSQ for many, so if eliminates the need for extra skis, then the $$$ is worth it. With the 77, you're really into more competitive piste product a la the supershapes and non FIS race skis.

That makes a TON of sense, and probably explains why, at least among Puggers, the 90 are's are a more popular choice. I am looking myself into doing some recreation gates (there is a thread in Ski School). So, one of the possibilities is getting a relatively forgiving Masters GS ski around r=20. Both the Titan and the Z77 would be alternatives. Think of it, we missed @ScotsSkier in the list above, but he'll probably be coaching his Masters racers. If he can make it, he could perhaps have a loaner masters GS for the experiment.

 

[James]

I don't know why the Stockli Ax (78 underfoot) is not being considered against a Renoun z-77.
You likely could get a Titan and a used or last years cheater gs ffor the price of the Stockli or Renoun.

If a 170 works for you, you could get the hart Striker for $299. Afaik, it's basically the Blossom White Out. The White Out might really fit your sometimes master gs thing. But really, to do that you need a cheater gs. A titan is kind of silly in that environment. Casual gate running sure, not masters gs unless one really must.

http://www.hartskis.com/closeout.html

Don't be confused by that bizarre shape that's pictured. It's a conventional shape. Call them to make sure. Don't get me started on hart.

 

[Uncle-A]

Phil, Z-77 vs Titan cage match...

The Titan is 81 in a 177CM I think the Rally is a 77 in a 177CM. Not that the Rally is what the new Titan has become.

 

[Andy Mink]

Hell, yeah! I call a day at Rose now in May. I am perhaps big enough, not skilled enough, but I can give the perspective from the lower end of the spectrum. Important to keep in mind that a late Spring day will very likely mean 2 hours of real skiable groomers. 10 to 12 or so ...

It was mush today by 10 for the most part. Slide especially.

 

[Mendieta]

It was mush today by 10 for the most part. Slide especially.

Arrggh, how about the other side, Kit Carson Bowl, and actually, I thin,k some of the blacks hold up relatively well, like Northwest Passage and six gun

But it's all relative. Once temps get high enough, around 15C/60F, it's game over, You don't even need the sun, everything will soften to slush

So, yeah, by the time @Philpug and @Tricia are back, we probably won't have a cool morning to run carving skis. But hey, we can always hope.

 

[Philpug]

When we get back from Utah, Colorado and Penna we can do something. Memorial Day weekend, maybe?

 

[mikel]

Looks like the Z-Series has a fair amount of rocker in the tail. Seems more so than a lot of skis. What does this do for a ski? Do you need to adjust length for this design?

Not sure if you could ever see @skibob's pic. It never came thru for me. Here is a pic of the tail. For me, maybe for the first 2 or 3 days on them and only the 1st couple of runs of the day did the tails feel a little different. After that I didn't feel the difference anymore. I still have the 1/1 and no complaints with edge hold at all and that includes some time on some icy hard pack with about a 1/2" of snow on top. I also agree the 174 skis to size. It certainly doesn't feel long and not short either. The biggest difference for me is skiing deeper stuff and it's probably all on me. I'm not having the same success as other on here skiing 12" or more of new. Again, probably me. Everything else I couldn't be happier.

 

[Started at 53]

Not sure if you could ever see @skibob's pic. It never came thru for me. Here is a pic of the tail. For me, maybe for the first 2 or 3 days on them and only the 1st couple of runs of the day did the tails feel a little different. After that I didn't feel the difference anymore. I still have the 1/1 and no complaints with edge hold at all and that includes some time on some icy hard pack with about a 1/2" of snow on top. I also agree the 174 skis to size. It certainly doesn't feel long and not short either. The biggest difference for me is skiing deeper stuff and it's probably all on me. I'm not having the same success as other on here skiing 12" or more of new. Again, probably me. Everything else I couldn't be happier.


View attachment 23368

Cool, thanks for the photo

Enjoy, sounds like a great ski

 

[Tricia]

I can't wait! and Oh how I wish I was near you, I'd love to go skiing. was just lamenting (whining) to my DH how much I miss skiing... may have to go to killington
I wish I wasn't so busy at work or I'd hop a flight out west to ski more.. make turns for me please

Mother's Day Week at Arapahoe Basin....just saying.

 

[markojp]

That makes a TON of sense, and probably explains why, at least among Puggers, the 90 are's are a more popular choice. I am looking myself into doing some recreation gates (there is a thread in Ski School). So, one of the possibilities is getting a relatively forgiving Masters GS ski around r=20. Both the Titan and the Z77 would be alternatives. Think of it, we missed @ScotsSkier in the list above, but he'll probably be coaching his Masters racers. If he can make it, he could perhaps have a loaner masters GS for the experiment.

To be clear, even the supershapes are not a replacement for a race ski*. Do yourself a large favor and pick up a race ski. It will be well worth your while.

*Assuming the skier understands the difference between tipping a ski on edge to turn vs. pivoting.

 

[markojp]

The Titan is 81 in a 177CM I think the Rally is a 77 in a 177CM. Not that the Rally is what the new Titan has become.

Thought about that, too.

 

[Mendieta]

To be clear, even the supershapes are not a replacement for a race ski*. Do yourself a large favor and pick up a race ski. It will be well worth your while.

*Assuming the skier understands the difference between tipping a ski on edge to turn vs. pivoting.

Understood Here is the thing, I don't carve well, I tend to skid, but I do put them on edge, a lot better that I steer/pivot. Actually, I had to get better at pivoting to be able to do bumps (work in progress as well). I do need to increase the edge angle, which in turns needs better angulation and separation, better focus on for-aft, etc.

All things said, my plan would be to get a carving ski, likely a Masters GS (I know I shouldn't look into FIS anything). And start like in my first season, from greens, and only use them in smooth groomed runs. And build from there. So, I would always have my 90mm all mountains as daily drivers, or for bumpy conditions, etc, Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[James]

Understood Here is the thing, I don't carve well, I tend to skid, but I do put them on edge, a lot better that I steer/pivot. Actually, I had to get better at pivoting to be able to do bumps (work in progress as well). I do need to increase the edge angle, which in turns needs better angulation and separation, better focus on for-aft, etc.

All things said, my plan would be to get a carving ski, likely a Masters GS (I know I shouldn't look into FIS anything). And start like in my first season, from greens, and only use them in smooth groomed runs. And build from there. So, I would always have my 90mm all mountains as daily drivers, or for bumpy conditions, etc, Thanks for the suggestion!

Given that you should get the slalom ski and work on fundamentals. You get the quickest feedback from those. No need to only use either on just smooth runs but enter off piste cautiously.
Well I'm conflating you with @skibob, in the other thread. But perhaps @markojp has a suggestion also.
https://forum.pugski.com/threads/blossom-white-out.4429/page-3#post-111009

 

[markojp]

Maybe a Head iRace if they're available. 16m if I recall. PM Sierra Jim about them. I also think the Rossi Hero LT might be a nice ski. Not so sure I'm on board with the SL ski thinking...

 

[TahoeCharlie]

When we get back from Utah, Colorado and Penna we can do something. Memorial Day weekend, maybe?

How 'bout Mammoth for Memorial Day. The top gondola and chair 23 (at 11k ft) usually have good May snow.

 

[NZRob]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I hadn't even heard of the Renoun's until yesterday - thanks pugski ....I've loved my 2014 Bones but want a more dedicated carving/occasional Masters ski as well as the all mountain ski.

I had really come down to the 2016/17 Bonafides (no chance to demo them in NZ this seasons, but not fussed on the reviews of the 2017/18 model, and the reviews seem to indicate the 16/17 addresses my main complaint with the 14's - they've got flappy in the shovel), and the Titan's for carving duties.

I know it is sacrilege to say on here but I really would prefer to have a one-ski quiver (practicality....and the children and wife have developed ski habits too) and the outpouring of love for the Z90 has really made me wonder if there is a one-ski answer to my potential two-ski solution above......thoughts?

p.s. had also been thinking of the MX89

 

[PisteOff]

Understood Here is the thing, I don't carve well, I tend to skid, but I do put them on edge, a lot better that I steer/pivot. Actually, I had to get better at pivoting to be able to do bumps (work in progress as well). I do need to increase the edge angle, which in turns needs better angulation and separation, better focus on for-aft, etc.

All things said, my plan would be to get a carving ski, likely a Masters GS (I know I shouldn't look into FIS anything). And start like in my first season, from greens, and only use them in smooth groomed runs. And build from there. So, I would always have my 90mm all mountains as daily drivers, or for bumpy conditions, etc, Thanks for the suggestion!

Wow, I just realized how old this post was......I actually wrote a reply and then deleted it. After thinking about I figured I would reply anyway since it didn't seem that anyone ever gave you the input you were looking for.....

Just based on what you said in this single post I would offer the following advice.......If you're not a carver and therefore not accustomed to really bending a ski and stepping on the gas pedal than I would advise you against getting any race ski at this point. I would suggest a medium flex ski with a medium flex boot that fits tight. A great developmental ski is the Rossignol Experience 77 or 80 but not the HD models. A regular E80 and a 90 flex boot with some coaching is what got my son carving. I will continue to work with him this season on this set up. You will develop your skills rapidly on a medium flex set up. Once you can rip that ski, move up to a stiffer flex ski and when you start to overpower the boot move up to a 110-120. Work up to the race boards if thats ultimately where you want to end up. Years ago I tried exactly what you're suggesting and it didn't work out for me. I had to take a couple steps back and work myself into it in the manner outlined.

 

[Tony S]

the outpouring of love for the Z90 has really made me wonder if there is a one-ski answer to my potential two-ski solution above......thoughts?

p.s. had also been thinking of the MX89

Had a couple runs on the Z90. Been on the MX88 (But not the reputedly similar MX89). Very different skis. Hard for me to imagine considering them in the same breath, so to speak. The Z is very turny and easy to ski. Marko says he sees a lot of similarities with the Titan. To me it seemed a bit easier going and more slalomy than the new Titan, and much more so than the older one. The MX, by contrast, for this smaller skier, wants speed and commitment and plenty of both - far more of a fat GS. My two cents.