Tesla Model ≡

[TonyC]

Tahoe is the longest trip we have done in the Tesla (Napa Valley last October was close). Home to Reno took 9 hours vs. the usual 7.5 due to charge stops in Inyokern (18 minutes), Lone Pine (68 minutes including lunch) and Mammoth (29 minutes). We got a full charge while having a nice dinner at the Atlantis, stayed one night at Grand Sierra and had a great day at Mt. Rose on 2-for-1 Tuesday. http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12380

We spent Tue/Wed nights at the Best Western just south of Truckee, which has a Supercharger onsite. Wednesday was very spring like at Squaw http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12381 and we caught up with Phil and Trish during our late lunch at Wildflour.

Thursday we packed, drove to Alpine Meadows, then decided not to ski with so few lifts open. Now for the Tesla part of the story. The dash Thursday morning had a warming message that "Driver Assistance features are Unavailable." I assumed this was due to the ongoing snow, but once we got over Donner Summit the weather cleared, the message remained, and the Autopilot features were indeed disabled. I called the Burbank Service Center in my phonebook, they asked for my name and VIN number and diagnosed over the air that the windshield camera behind the rear view mirror had failed and needed to be replaced. We then called the Service Center in Rocklin, determined they had one is stock and said we would be there in an hour. They said the repair would take 2 hours. It took three, but we had things to catch up on (like writing those TR's) and it was a lost ski day anyway. We had a brief charge stop in Santa Nella, then an hour and a half at Harris Ranch for dinner before driving home.

One other note: I drove the 75 miles for Santa Nella to Harris on cruise at 90mph most of the way and noticed surprisingly low battery consumption. We got out of the car for dinner and realized we had a stiff tailwind driving NW to SE on I-5 last Thursday. You can be surprised the other way with headwinds of course.

 

[Uncle-A]

I took a week vacation to visit an old High School friend and he had just taken delivery of his Model X. My wife and I spent a week riding around in this car with him and his wife. Let me say the car is a dream ride so smooth and quiet. The technology is something to see first hand, words do not do it justice. So I have a few photos.

WP_20170324_13_06_26_Rich_LI (2)

• Uncle-A
• Apr 8, 2017

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• Uncle-A
• Apr 8, 2017

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• Uncle-A
• Apr 8, 2017

 

[TonyC]

For those of you with Model 3 orders, here's the projection for the Federal tax credit:
http://insideevs.com/us-federal-7500-ev-credit-expiry-date-by-automaker-estimates/

You are likely to get the full $7,500 if you take delivery by the 3rd quarter of 2018. Interestingly, GM with the Bolt/Volt is projected to reach 200,000 in the same 2nd quarter of 2018 as Tesla.

 

[Ken_R]

After driving a Tesla S I just though, THIS is how cars are supposed to be today, it's 2017 people! It felt superb, quiet and clean. It boggles my mind how come there are not many more cars like it. A normal car then feels like a dinosaur after driving a Tesla. Wow.

 

[TonyC]

It boggles my mind how come there are not many more cars like it.

Because it was expensive to build a car like that. This was Elon's great insight, to go after this market from the top down. It was easier to demonstrate compelling advantages of electric cars in the $100K market. Model 3 is the next step to bring those advantages to a broader market. Even if Tesla screws up with Model 3, I think the German companies have seen enough (plus they are being pressured in their home market) that they will make electric cars more mainstream within a decade.

 

[ScotsSkier]

sounds like the Model X has a really good heater..

http://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-x-owner-pulled-from-car-after-falcon-doors-1794592884

 

[Jed Peters]

After driving a Tesla S I just though, THIS is how cars are supposed to be today, it's 2017 people! It felt superb, quiet and clean. It boggles my mind how come there are not many more cars like it. A normal car then feels like a dinosaur after driving a Tesla. Wow.

You're not driving the right cars then, Ken.

I recently drove a P100D with the ludacris package.

I also drove a McLaren 650s super car (brother in law's) and a MB S550 (mom's). FWIW, I bought both cars for them. The brother in law I could have bought any exotic under $350k and mom I could have bought her any lux car under $150k. So obviously I had my pick and got to try a number of cars.

Performance standpoint: The mclaren was a million times more visceral, handled better, was faster after 0-60, and pulled better throughout the gear range. The McLaren was a WAY superior vehicle from a performance standpoint.

Luxury: The Tesla is supposed to be the ultimate in tech, right? The mercedes fit and finish blew it away. The Tesla, believe it or not, is built like a piece of shit. Door panels off, cheap interior finishes, broken buttons, crappy bodywork, cheap paint, etc. It's like an american car. The sub 5 second Mercedes Benz S class blows it away in everything except connectivity/tech (arguably the mercedes is better for the 140k lux sedan crowd) and cargo space.

Not to mention the new Porsche Panamera Turbo is out now for the same pricepoint as the tesla.

Tesla makes AWESOME cars and they are the way of the future, no doubt. But they still have a way to get there with the europeans.

 

[Uncle-A]

Because it was expensive to build a car like that. This was Elon's great insight, to go after this market from the top down. It was easier to demonstrate compelling advantages of electric cars in the $100K market. Model 3 is the next step to bring those advantages to a broader market. Even if Tesla screws up with Model 3, I think the German companies have seen enough (plus they are being pressured in their home market) that they will make electric cars more mainstream within a decade.

You know what the stock market guys say "First to market always wins"

 

[Ken_R]

You're not driving the right cars then, Ken.

I recently drove a P100D with the ludacris package.

I also drove a McLaren 650s super car (brother in law's) and a MB S550 (mom's). FWIW, I bought both cars for them. The brother in law I could have bought any exotic under $350k and mom I could have bought her any lux car under $150k. So obviously I had my pick and got to try a number of cars.

Performance standpoint: The mclaren was a million times more visceral, handled better, was faster after 0-60, and pulled better throughout the gear range. The McLaren was a WAY superior vehicle from a performance standpoint.

Luxury: The Tesla is supposed to be the ultimate in tech, right? The mercedes fit and finish blew it away. The Tesla, believe it or not, is built like a piece of shit. Door panels off, cheap interior finishes, broken buttons, crappy bodywork, cheap paint, etc. It's like an american car. The sub 5 second Mercedes Benz S class blows it away in everything except connectivity/tech (arguably the mercedes is better for the 140k lux sedan crowd) and cargo space.

Not to mention the new Porsche Panamera Turbo is out now for the same pricepoint as the tesla.

Tesla makes AWESOME cars and they are the way of the future, no doubt. But they still have a way to get there with the europeans.

Well as an independent auto maker in the US it is impossible to compete with the large euro brands in fit, finish and materials. But imagine a similarly functioning car like the Tesla but in a MB S. MB can build a car like that today. So what is valuable is the concept and to a large the degree the basic functionality of the Tesla. No engine cooling system, no oil, no exhaust system, no fuel system. Yes after more than a Century the internal combustion engine and its associated drivetrain have been engineered to the point where they are just amazing works of art and engineering but the concept remains the same. Put fuel in, get gasses out.

 

[TonyC]

The Panamera and the Audi A7 (which I might have bought in 2010 if its US introduction had happened earlier) are good comps to Model S in layout and functionality. The performance of my S90D is comparable to an Audi S7 or Panamera S, both of which cost at least as much. A base Model S75D is comparable to base A7 or Panamera.

Tesla charges a big premium for the performance/ludicrous versions of Model S and X. I'm all for them making big profits on those cars, but I think the 0-60 in 4.2 seconds of my car is more than adequate.

Are the fit and finish and luxury features as good as the Germans? No but the drivetrain tech is unique in 2016 and Tesla's Autopilot is also best in class for the time being. Liz and I are still quite enamored with our Model S after barely over one year and 17K miles. And our only reliability glitch so far was that Autopilot camera failure which was diagnosed over the air and fixed the same day.

You know what the stock market guys say "First to market always wins"

As much of a fan as I am of Tesla, I would not make this assumption. The Germans (and maybe even GM) have deep pockets and could build better electric cars down the road. Tesla is also a financial high wire act and they could stumble and get bought out by Apple, Google or a car company. But Tesla has demonstrated enough already that electric cars are the future, at least for first world urbanized metro areas.

 

[Philpug]

Spy Photos:

From Electrek:
We have seen more and more pictures of Tesla Model 3 release candidates lately, but as production is getting closer, we are hoping to soon see some production units.

While Tesla is not quite there yet, they released a glimpse of the Model 3 body-in-white today.

A picture of the Model 3 chassis leaked earlier this year, but this new look is the first official image of the vehicle’s structure.

Last month, we reported on Tesla updating its body shop program to simplify and reduce the cost ahead of Model 3.

They are bringing online some of their courses for technicians. The ones for the Model S and Model X are already available. Tesla is even offering a 30% discount on parts for the shops who have two or more technicians completing the courses by July 1st.

In a brochure for the new program – embedded below, Tesla announced the upcoming program for the Model 3 and showed the first picture of the vehicle’s body-in-white

The way the back is open shows that Tesla really opened up the trunk’s opening – something that previously worried some reservations holders.

The production line for the Model 3 is not quite ready yet, but Tesla confirmed progress on the body line.

Earlier this month, Tesla gave an update on the Model 3 production plan and they said that they completed the expansion of their paint shop for the Model 3:

“Paint shop preparation has been completed and installations of our dedicated Model 3 body welding and general assembly lines are progressing well.”

They also confirmed that they received and installed their Schuler press for the Model 3 production line and they think that they will have “sufficient time to install and tune die sets ahead of volume production.”

In the brochure of the body repair program, they say that they will have the courses for the Model 3 by July, when they plan to start production:

Model 3 Mechanical, Electrical and Trim
Model 3 Structural Repair*
Steel Structural Welding*

Tesla President Jon McNeill announced last month that Tesla will ‘add 300 body shops to its network in the next few weeks’ and earlier this month, Tesla announced that they also plan company-owned body shops.

 

[neonorchid]

For those of you with Model 3 orders, here's the projection for the Federal tax credit:
http://insideevs.com/us-federal-7500-ev-credit-expiry-date-by-automaker-estimates/

You are likely to get the full $7,500 if you take delivery by the 3rd quarter of 2018. Interestingly, GM with the Bolt/Volt is projected to reach 200,000 in the same 2nd quarter of 2018 as Tesla.

Thanks for posting, been wondering about that expiration date - especially with the current administration which after todays developments has me seriously thinking about an electric car as my act of defiance (not the only reason).
I have more then a passing interest in the upcoming '18 Nissan Leaf due in Sept. My biggest concern is range, i.e., range at typical highway speeds of 80mph, and in the cold of winter plus if it's "ok" not half bad or terrible on snow covered roads.
https://electrek.co/2017/05/02/nissan-next-gen-leaf-electric-range/

 

[TonyC]

I have more then a passing interest in the upcoming '18 Nissan Leaf due in Sept. My biggest concern is range, i.e., range at typical highway speeds of 80mph, and in the cold of winter plus if it's "ok" not half bad or terrible on snow covered roads.
https://electrek.co/2017/05/02/nissan-next-gen-leaf-electric-range/

A Bolt or a next generation Leaf will be an excellent value as a commuter car but will be seriously deficient to Model 3 for travel.
1) The obvious is the Tesla Supercharger network. "Level 3" charging is still less than half as fast as Supercharging. Level 2 is only viable as overnight charging for travel. As of now virtually all commercial charging for non-Tesla EV's is Level 2.
2) Model S and Model 3 are both designed with aerodynamics as high priority. 80mph in my Model S90D requires 135% of rated range, meaning you need 270 miles rated range to travel 200 miles between charges. The hit on a Bolt of Leaf will be worse. The media test of the Bolt was driving secondary winding roads from Monterey to Carmel, averaging about 45mph. In the real world Bolt and Leaf will be more efficient in the city than Tesla as they are smaller and lighter, but for freeway driving they will not be as good.
3) Tesla's traction control in snow is excellent on the D (AWD) models. The Bolt and Leaf are not AWD and may like the Prius come with stiff tires designed to maximize fuel economy that don't work well in snow. Teslas do have a weakness in intense snow situations due to low ground clearance and tight wheel well clearance, both of which are due to the priority of aerodynamics.

I do not have long distance travel experience in sustained cold temperatures, but according to Tesla Owners Forum 32F requires 113% of rated range and 15F requires 125%. If you're driving 80mph you multiply the speed and cold factors getting 153% at 32F and 169% at 15F. In this scenario 270 miles rated range will get you 177 miles between charges at 32F and 160 miles at 15F.

Tesla has announced that Model 3 will first be produced in RWD and it is also not clear which battery range option. Eventually we can expect an AWD Model 3 with close to 300 miles rated range.

I do not have personal experience with my Tesla S90D in more extreme snow or cold because I have another car (2011 Cayenne) better able to handle those situations. Nonetheless I have done 8 ski trips to Mammoth and 1 to Tahoe in the past 14 months in the Tesla.

 

[Rod9301]

I just read that it costs 3,000 for a yearly subscription to a tesla repair manual. So if you want to work on the car or have an independent garage fix it, 3,000.

https://service.teslamotors.com/?_ga=2.143515381.1514147881.1496653323-2023878248.1496653323


This is on top of the horrible reliability.

 

[Started at 53]

When they build an SUV the size of a Tahoe or larger that can pull my boat and trailer (1000#'s) 325+ miles I will look at them.

I have ZERO use for a car (can't hang my 1 piece fly rods inside) and would be a terrible choice to pull my boat.

Heck, we have a Tahoe rental on order for our trip to Deer Valley in December, gotta stuff the double concourse ski bag in dat thang

 

[TonyC]

The Bolt automotive press tour was from Monterey to Santa Barbara. Unfortunately I can't correct dumb errors like that more than two hours after I've posted on this forum.

When they build an SUV the size of a Tahoe or larger that can pull my boat and trailer (1000#'s) 325+ miles I will look at them.

No argument there. Towing is a non-starter for current EV's. Just as towing a big trailer might cut gas mileage in half, for an EV it cuts range in half, totally negates Tesla's state of the art aerodynamics of the car alone.

It must take a huge gas tank for a Tahoe to get anywhere near 325 miles pulling a trailer. Since my Cayenne can get 550 on a road trip I suppose it's possible, but those are outlier cases. Lots of gas cars can't get much over 300 miles to a tank, and most of us grew up with cars that were lucky to get 250. The engineering challenge for electric long distance travel is not range. Nobody will care if the real world range is 250 miles or so if the 80% charging time can be cut from the current 45 minutes to 10-15 minutes. At that point road trips will be transparent vs. most gas cars.

As for carrying capacity, two double ski bags fit easily in my Model S, easier than in all but the most huge SUV's. Tesla's space efficiency is better than gas cars of similar exterior dimensions, due to battery being all in the floor and only slightly extra space being taken by the electric motors.

Elon has promised a "Tesla Semi" in the future with a conceptual reveal this coming September. I will find this fascinating because heavy weight and bad aerodynamics are major challenges for electric vehicles.

It has been speculated that a future Tesla pickup (and by implication big SUV) would have a double battery layer, say 150kW. Right now that would be prohibitively expensive, but the key point of the Gigafactory is to slash battery production costs.

I believe Tesla has already demonstrated that the future lies with electric vehicles for most but not all applications. However, I also believe this transition will take much longer than the fanboys think. It has taken a decade to go from the first Tesla Roadster to the first Model 3. And Model 3 will need to be a big success to prompt other car manufacturers to prioritize EV development.

I just read that it costs 3,000 for a yearly subscription to a tesla repair manual. So if you want to work on the car or have an independent garage fix it, 3,000.
https://service.teslamotors.com/?_ga=2.143515381.1514147881.1496653323-2023878248.1496653323
This is on top of the horrible reliability.

As a more mature industry, electric cars rate to be more reliable and cost less to maintain and operate than gas cars due to simplicity of design and so few moving parts. Thanks to regen braking, brake pads and rotors rate to last 3-4x as long as on a gas car.

Tesla as a startup had lousy quality control in the early cars. Model S cars produced since mid to late 2014 (2 years after introduction) have average or better reliability per Consumer Reports. But last year's headlines were about the bad quality control in the early 2016 Model X's, which are an unnecessarily complex design.

Elon has said simplicity is a priority of Model 3 design. The early owners/beta testers will be employees and current Tesla owners. So the odds favor the first time EV owners of Model 3's not having the quality issues that plagued the early Model S and X's. So a year from now we will know if Tesla has learned its lessons from the rocky introductions of the earlier models.

 

[Started at 53]

@TonyC

My boat is very light (575 lbs) and tucks in behind my SUV for decent aerodynamics, but my gas mileage dips about 3.5 MPG pulling it. I can make the round trip, but only just with my Tahoe.

9 foot long fly rods are an issue for any car.

 

[Jwrags]

@TonyC , I really enjoy reading about your Tesla experiences, especially since we are on the wait list for a Model 3. We went down to the newly opened Tesla dealership last weekend just to check them out. The model X was very cool but I get that it is way too technologically complex. Plus, I priced one and for a base model, with the tow package(for my hitch mounted bike rack), and auto pilot it was $92,000 . Not a car for the masses. Looking forward to actually being able to touch the 3.

 

[Started at 53]

OK, being I have had a bunch of free time today, I took a few minutes from my new FATMAP app to check out the TESLA website. That SUV looks amazing, and in a 2-2 rather than a 2-3 configuration it would be a serious winner. But at $100,000??? I get the gas savings, and I typically keep a car (SUV) for 13-14 years and 220,000+ miles, the savings would be pretty good over the life of the vehicle. But will the batteries last? What is battery cost replacement for a long term vehicle owner?

I always look at major purchases long term, and the TESLA is likely a good long term investment as long as you have the capital for purchase. The savings on electric over gas on a 200,000 plus mile vehicle would be a big number.

The creature comforts are very cool. I might have a hard time not ordering some "toy" options that I might not need.

Bottom line, it is 138 miles to my boat launch location (Florida Keys) from my house, I often do day trips, so that is 276 round trip pulling my boat. I can't see not going with the 100 version at 295 miles of range, but that is not pulling a very light boat.

I just bought a new Tahoe a few months ago, but in about 3-4 years Mrs. 53 with need a new vehicle and maybe they will have the range up in the 400 mile range by then and I can get it done.

Note: I believe there are TESLA chargers on the Florida Turnpike, but not sure. I could make a 15 minute stop to catch a charge to get home. In reality, by the time my car is in need of retirement I will likely be too old to self-guide and pulling a boat will not be an issue.

The Model X looks to have the size of an SUV, but the height of a car, we both like the higher vision line the big SUV's give us for safety reasons. I know the lower profile is much more aerodynamic, so this is likely not going to change.

Interesting stuff for sure tho

 

[TonyC]

You will not see Model 3 in showrooms or be able to test drive one for quite a while. On the Tesla Forum there is chatter about Tesla "anti-selling" the Model 3 for the time being. The 370,000 pre-orders are likely to consume production to nearly the end of 2018. There is no need to market Model 3 to walk-in customers until mid-2018.

I believe Model X is a less practical design than Model S.
1) Worse aerodynamics means 257 vs. 294 rated range for a 90D. It probably means a worse hit for high speed driving too.
2) Second row pedestal seats in Model X do not fold down. If you have only two of those pedestal seats skis will fit between them, but overall Model S is more flexible for hauling gear inside, including bikes.
3) Even though the initial quality control bugs have been ironed out, Model X complexity still has higher reliability risk, particularly those falcon wing doors.

So the main attraction of Model X IMHO is for those who insist in a high seat driving position. The Model S premium seats are very comfortable once you're in them, but you do notice how low Model S is getting in and out. The falcon wing doors are a great conversation piece but in the real world have some disadvantages. One of those is inability to mount a roof rack, an option available on Model S with moonroof.

Both Model S and X can be ordered with air suspension to get an extra couple of inches of ground clearance, but neither is what you would call a good off road vehicle.

Bottom line, it is 138 miles to my boat launch location (Florida Keys) from my house, I often do day trips, so that is 276 round trip pulling my boat. I can't see not going with the 100 version at 295 miles of range, but that is not pulling a very light boat.

There is a supercharger in Marathon Key as well as Florida City. I'm not sure how far out of the way Marathon Key is from your boat launch, but that charger clearly enables round trips to Key West, even hauling a boat. And you're driving on a flat road at reasonable speed, not climbing thousands of feet at 80mph like we skiers do. Florida is a very practical market for Tesla: flat terrain, more moderate drive distances than in the West, minimal cold temperatures and comprehensive supercharger coverage. You do not need 400 miles of rated range in Florida.

This discussion is a good example of why an extended interview with a prospective owner is needed to analyze their unique needs and driving patterns. My first impression was negative due to the ridiculous amount of time it took when I read about someone test driving hauling a trailer with Model X from L.A. to Flagstaff, Arizona and back. But this example, hauling a small boat from Miami metro area to the Keys, is not a big deal IMHO. Probably less extra time will be spent at charge stops than on my round trips to Mammoth.

I have not mentioned here before the referral program for Model S and X. I used it for a $1,000 discount during the first program in fall 2015. My referral code as an owner now gives you a $1000 discount on your order plus free supercharging for life: http://ts.la/anthony6972 .