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Technical Models

BornToSki683

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Both skiers are flexing their legs, hence both are using flexion. Both skiers are resisting forces with their legs so both are also using extention. Because extension and flexion have overlapping qualities across the same plane we cannot determine what is actually happening regarding the intent of the skier.

R.M. on the other hand, is not really releasing his CoM nearly as much....

well, we surely don't know their "intent", but we can see clearly what they are actually doing in the video. The video doesn't lie. Again, look closer. Look at specifically which leg is being flexed or extended and at which part of the turn phase, etc. KM flexes his inside leg at a different time and for a different reason then Reilly.

Regarding the release, which means...releasing the CoM out of the inside of the old turn so that it can crossover the skis into the inside of the next turn:

KM is not flexing to release at all.

Reilly is.

Its as simple as that.

Its also worth noting that KM seems to primarily be skiing a longer radius turn then Reilly in these two videos.

Regarding the long leg short leg... what is that exactly? its a separate element of skiing and occurs at a different phase of the turn then releasing does and different technical models will approach it differently, but in dynamic skiing we're going to see the inside leg short and the outside leg long through the belly of the turn. Both skiers do accomplish this, but in different ways.

KM finds himself at the end of his release with both legs long. He has only one option for progressively increasing edge angles in the new turn, which is to lower his CoM into the inside of the turn while collapsing the inside leg aggressively. This is what you see as top-down, I believe, but as I said before, it has nothing at all whatsoever to do with the "release" and thus can't really be compared to what Reilly is doing during release. KM has no flexion at all during release. Reilly does. both skiers are releasing out of the old turn effectively but in totally different ways.

After the release, Reilly finds himself with both legs flexed, he has to extend the outside leg to develop long leg short leg. Its possible he may also continue to flex the inside leg even more during that phase in the same manner that KM is doing, top-down as you say, it depends entirely on how deeply he flexed during the release.

Back on topic...you have to ask yourself what is the technical model that leads one skier to perform one way and the other skier to perform the other way? The primary difference I see there is that one skier (Reilly) flexes to release and KM does not. KM uses an extension move to release his CoM and cross over, he does not use flexion at all for that. Both skiers are flexing their inside leg to develop long leg short leg and increase edge angles throughout the new turn.

Clearly there are two different technical models being employed there.

I find it relevant also that the up and over skier is skiing a longer radius turn and the flex-to-release skier is skiing a shorter radius turn. I feel that the technical model being employed by KM is more conducive for longer radius turns and I suspect he would not look nearly as smooth and fluid using the same technical model on SRT turns because not enough time to do it. Reilly's technical model can translate to longer radius turns and it would be interesting to see his medium radius turns compared directly to KM's.
 

karlo

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it could also be perceived as arrogant by the people who would otherwise be helping you achieve your goals.

You're right. I've been looking at this like, why so complicated? But, I've only taught one season, and taught kids who just see and do. Not a lot of technical discussion. They have no goals except to have fun. There are of course excellent reasons why you and others have studied and broken things down into detail. It simply is beyond my experience to encounter those reasons; I haven't been challenged yet, teaching. Except for my efforts on behalf of my wife (behalf of me?) of course.

Sorry for coming across as arrogant.
 

karlo

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Straight skis required vertical motion with which to acquire edge pressure for required surface penetration.
Modern skis allows us to create edge pressure through lateral means that are quicker and more effortless.

Isn't it more effortless because it's more natural? Think a running back.

Lately I’ve been watching Stefano...

Love the first video. Such artful skiing.
 

BornToSki683

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Straight skis required vertical motion with which to acquire edge pressure for required surface penetration.
Modern skis allows us to create edge pressure through lateral means that are quicker and more effortless.

Vertical motion was used by many skiers particularly recreational skiers, in order to compensate for the fact that they didn't have the skills and/or athleticism to make straight skis carve. The skis were longer and stiffer, with less sidecut and much harder to carve then today. Most recreational skiers developed a need to pivot and steer their skis rather then carve them, indeed the American Teaching organizations hung their hats on that very need and developed a system of instruction (ie Technical model) which primarily focused on avoiding even trying to carve and twisting the long stiff skis instead. Vertical motion for unweighting became an important part of that.

New skis have changed a lot, but the main difference that changed everything in the late 90's was that they became shorter, softer and a deeper sidecut. Suddenly now a mere beginner with hardly any athleticism could tip their ski on edge, watch it bend and carve without any twisting whatsoever or need to unweight the skis through vertical motion.
 

karlo

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Suddenly now a mere beginner with hardly any athleticism could tip their ski on

Because what is needed of the skier is more "natural"? how can that be harnessed for teaching and learning, not just left to be a matter of fact?
 

BornToSki683

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Because what is needed of the skier is more "natural"? how can that be harnessed for teaching and learning, not just left to be a matter of fact?

me personally I don't think the movements in skiing, according to the technical models I respect the most, are naturally related to anything we naturally do as human beings. It has to be learned. we don't walk on the sides of our feet, etc.. Skiing really has its own unique movement patterns that have to be learned. There is nothing "natural" about it. Not with old equipment and not with new equipment. But new equipment does make it easier, by a large margin, to carve, to use the sidecut of the ski to do all the work..there is much less need to twist the skis, there is much less need to unweight them in order to do so, etc. Skiing can be more effortless with the new equipment, without question...but only if you are using a technical model which embraces the technology in an efficient and more effortless way. If you continue to jump and twist and man handle them around like old skiis...then there is not much advantage.
 

4ster

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You're right. I've been looking at this like, why so complicated? But, I've only taught one season, and taught kids who just see and do. Not a lot of technical discussion. They have no goals except to have fun. There are of course excellent reasons why you and others have studied and broken things down into detail. It simply is beyond my experience to encounter those reasons; I haven't been challenged yet, teaching. Except for my efforts on behalf of my wife (behalf of me?) of course.

Sorry for coming across as arrogant.

@karlo , you have answered your own question. It is your responsibility to present ideal movements as an instructor, ESPECIALLY to those who just see & do! It Is troublesome that newer, less skilled instructors are often the ones “modeling” for those most impressionable.
You don’t need to be the hottest, most rad skier on the mountain to provide proper demonstrations but you do need to understand and employ the correct movements.

I don’t think you’ve come across as arrogant, you should be commended for seeking to improve.
 

karlo

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we don't walk on the sides of our feet,

I am not at all trying to be argumentative. If we stand in our boots on a slippery hill, we will naturally be on the edges of our feet. If we run down the hill at an angle to fall line, or run a serpentine pattern down that line, in our boots, we will end up on the edges of our feet quite naturally.

So, look at the few turns that start at 0:25 here, a favorite of mine,


(so fluid and dynamic, beautiful). If one runs down the angled line, or just trots, with as much upper body discipline as MS is exhibiting, a lot of the same sensations will be felt when skiing. while running or trotting, I would ask the student to feel their feet, feel the hip angles and rotations. With the old up and down method of skiing, hard to relate that to anything natural.

I just love those turns. Music.

btw, I tried that on some kids. Seemed to be helpful. But i can't measure. I should show them this clip before having them do it, run and trot that is
 

4ster

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I may not walk on the sides of my feet on the sidewalk but get me moving in a circle or across a hill & I sure do.
 

Doby Man

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The cave man interpretation of the below: CoM ⇒ BoS (bad) - CoM ⇐ BoS (good)

Re: CoM release: The more CoM we have to “release” into the turn means the more CoM we were “holding” onto in the first place. The straighter and flatter the line that we can produce with our CoM means holding on to it less. The less we do with our Com other than allowing it to move straight through the turn, the less physical effort we need to exert while skiing. "Releasing" the CoM also suggests that its direction is being altered in an abrupt manner not becoming of an officer. Too much holding onto and releasing the CoM, playing “catch and release” all day, provides an aesthetic seam in our movements and physical efforts that are often, in my opinion, unnecessary.

A well directed CoM is a fundamental of expert skiing. I would argue that Mcglashan is neither holding nor releasing his CoM - at all - in his short turns and is simply allowing it to ride straight through like a good zipper line mogul skier. Mcglashan's CoM is clearly moving flat (no vert) and straight down the hill in a manner that negates the concept of “releasing the CoM” to little or no value in short turns. His leg flexion is “pushed” into place by the ski and his “extension” is pulled into place by the ski, both from simple tipping of the ski. K. Maier’s flexion, however, occurs by releasing the CoM which results in a sinking drop that must be replenished by a forceful extension.

If a developing expert were to focus solely on clean ski to snow interaction outcome and piloting a smooth CoM “successfully”, everything else would have simply had to fall into place correctly. Forcing skiers to cognitively chase down somewhat disconnected and complex individual pieces of a puzzle to produce the relatively simple outcome of good skiing can be a very difficult path of learning. Simply targeting ski to snow interaction outcome and CoM to BoS relationship management allows the brain to prioritize focus in a manner that allows the body to find the movements needed without cognitive intervention. While my writing may suggest otherwise, thanks to mindless repetition, I usually don’t think about anything when I ski. For me, regurgitating (dry heaving, etc.) every last drop of thought online also makes that easier to accomplish. Yes, Pugski is the technical puke bucket I keep under my bed (counting on nobody getting this far).
 

Doby Man

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With all this talk about technical models, let’s not forget attitudinal models:

The Battleship Model:
kNAnwvrD0u2ZOBeBubDOqhvqUA20HMR9JqAhGsTkQOiTcfzzkZmqrqNAk-_S3kKqle_jaj2YRPOMuE2i66ibSbTHOGv_0deebbn34Pwd07LE1i3OHU4H_6nZ74UOx0SW0M0oJiJ9



The Tank Model:
MThO2Mgdfcg3jWcb3Hgec97qe41T53u3I0csID-j632GPK4PgM4aMhOlawa9npsp7mOpJxnKl01e7_HMc4MqdRmjxU5ezjuYU3S3gd0p1Mq_VN9V8CV0E2QE1JyqcvKeFsG5DpV2



The Dogfighter Model:
C5c-DKgEEknuuRHAtOckGW0mCGfbegYAcGMoLdlM2hcYNLSOOHCVRg6raTjqsbAVY_hSXPNBVH-BR8aVA524kxes7BHzORRYQq1sig4qHxRB8UK6AXw9zq77YfZdHANV-ZKZbDOi



The Full On Blitzkrieg … “Model”
NuUosKgJ04F3xvBdch1qMuraoLiPIvumT2oZOHby9SwoVXIBu5msZrxTyoejWCQKpCIuYeTaajdUOBmm3M0woSYk6bjJXdGIHazCHejI2Gr2hYc75olkQtQsYFYcbMiGx41Gh-7r



Choose your weap…. er, um … model.

M6aX76HT_Zrd8Nz6K0i_g0APFxQCTDyl2P079k4p4VNCjgCRleG1D8Q8SmuG7upz50eudVhRRQ3wt81d_HdpHiXhc1gdvJQ-YaLQYrzm__wG6MLxrYlLgssP1zWdomBMB-y3c62W
 

karlo

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Next. It appears to me that KM pressures his tips more at turn initiation; uses his tips more to initiate the turn. Quite obvious for some turns, like those starting at 1:00. Less obvious to me at 0:50, but I feel its happening and don't know why i feel that way. Maybe it's that if i were going up and down like that, I think i would be predisposed to tipping the skis down (or pressuring the tips)

RM, seems to be just tipping on edge. And, a high angulation of the edges early and a bit of park and ride.

Did I get that right?
 

HeluvaSkier

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Did I get that right?

No. I think you're a bit above your pay grade in the analysis arena. Like I said before, you need to learn a model before you engage in passing judgement on or analyzing any.

They both get forward at different points in the turn. Klaus is forward at turn initiation when the skis are light and neutral to back when the skis are loaded. Reilly is neutral to aft when the skis are light and forward when the skis are pressured and working (most forward when the skis are most pressured).
 

karlo

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Klaus is forward at turn initiation when the skis are light

What is "light"? Unpressured, as in transition? And, if he is forward then, isn't he about to pressure his tips, or initiate the carved turn from the tips?

I haven't taken MA101 yet
 

Jamt

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I may not walk on the sides of my feet on the sidewalk but get me moving in a circle or across a hill & I sure do.
You will sure use some tipping muscles, but I don't think it is similar to skiing.
Hip angulation is not too far off, but the ankle complex is in a totally different position.
maxresdefault.jpg
 

Jamt

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What is "light"? Unpressured, as in transition? And, if he is forward then, isn't he about to pressure his tips, or initiate the carved turn from the tips?

I haven't taken MA101 yet
He cannot pressure the tips early, because he still needs to get his CoM down, which requires downward acceleration, which is the same thing as being light. If you are light you cannot get any significant lateral turn forces. Which means that he has to wait for it and likely the pressure will be late. It can work for long turns, but for short and medium usually not.
Another way of pressuring the skis in this moment is to extend, like many do, but that hinders the CoM to get lower, and destroys any chance of getting high angles.
 

karlo

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If you are light you cannot get any significant lateral turn forces

I think I understand that. Seems to me that to initiate a turn with the tip, not much lateral turn force is needed. Just forward momentum and engagement of the tip's edges. Anyway, like @HeluvaSkier said, I am way above my paygrade. I'll take this up with you in PM

Back to Technical Models?

Not a terrible model (A-B-C), right? It's just three things, right? So it is simple, but it is deceptively simple...

One model that was posted was, just Balance, in the context of movement on skis of course. That one is perhaps at my paygrade. And, I kind of like it.
 

HeluvaSkier

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just Balance

Everything in skiing is about balance... The issue I see with "balance" as an instruction is when the student asks "how..." what does the student change to balance better... etc. A "clear, concise, blah, blah, blah teaching model" actually gives the inputs, instructions, movements, targets that when executed properly actually promote proper balance—meaning is isn’t open ended... there is a clear 'what' and 'how' communicated.

[I've also skied with Dan Egan (who I believe is credited with the balance comment) and he's a ripping skier, no doubt (he's also a BLAST to ski with), but I'd say he's quite often very out of balance in his skiing, saving it with hard/late edge sets and his acute sense fore/aft balance... able to put himself into situations that would land most skiers in the hospital, but due to his fore/aft movement/capability he pulls it off.]
 

Doby Man

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well, we surely don't know their "intent", but we can see clearly what they are actually doing in the video. The video doesn't lie. Again, look closer. Look at specifically which leg is being flexed or extended and at which part of the turn phase, etc.

We can assume only a few things with a photo. We can determine much more with a video, But only when we include focus, intent and purpose from the horses mouth can we make a complete determination. In a video, we can see extension and flexion but we can't determine exactly how they are achieved. A popular photographic case in point: If we are defining "pullback" as a result of hamstring contraction and it's purposeful initiation when there are other methods of achieving the same stance position requirements, we then cannot make such a determination without asking the skier themselves. The better a skier is, the more they ski with purpose. Purpose cannot be determined through visual means alone.

I haven't taken MA101 yet

You are taking that class right now. You get an "A" for enthusiasm and effort. Keep that up and technical acumen will follow.
 

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