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john petersen

john petersen

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Thanks for posting that Tricia....

there are some good exercises there, good analogies. I like the clearly defined language as well...The Javelin turn being the culmination of those other exercises was a nice progression.

Like learning any technique, we must focus on positions with areas of the body to begin learning how to do them. My only caution with these things, through my own learning and having good coaching myself, is to be sure NOT to think that there is any one static position we should be holding any part of our body in while skiing.
There should be a fluidity and suppleness as we are in constant motion on constantly changing terrain.

In our minds, we have to separate the technique and practicing that technique in an exercise or drill from the art and sensations of actually skiing linked turns on whatever conditions are present.

When we hear: ski with counter. we imagine a static position because that suggestion is usually followed by an example, like: your upper body should always face down the fall line....well, thats true.....sometimes.

Where is it most true?....short turns. It certainly changes on long radius turns though or we find ourselves in a posed position that is not ready for large changes in terrain or pitch. (like toward the end of the vid, where it is clear that a good countered and balanced position is much stronger to managing centripetal forces/centrifugal sensations when Kelly is pushed up the hill by his buddy. ) I like the distinction: "ski into and out of counter". the longer the turn, the longer it will take, the shorter the turn, the less time it will take...and in that short turn, you really do feel like your upper body can be "quiet" or "disciplined" or "stable".

Here is a good analogy that I think applies to just about every exercise you will ever do......the dimmer switch analogy.

take short turns for instance. we need to actively rotate our legs and feet and skis with fairly quick movements. But none of these movements should be like a light switch turning on and off. (rotary: light switch="z" shaped turns with rushed turn initiation.....dimmer switch=progressive turning of the skis to shape our short turns)

***of course, apply the other skills, edging and pressure control to the mix with the same analogy and you can see how this works.

JP
 
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bawbawbel

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A lot of what I am trying to do with guest is to take away their edges, to keep them from pushing hard down on the ski like they are always hitting the brakes. One thing I mention is to use the skis like a butter knife and spread the peanut but gently over the bread , not rip at it and tear up the bread. I'll keep at them by telling them don't rip up our snow we need to preserve it. As they progress and spread the butter more their turn shape really ramps up.
Good One!
First natural snow of the season in Oz!
No lifts yet, only walk up, ski down. 10 year old SuperSkier seemed to have forgotten everything, locked in stationary counter.
He said "I am a bit rusty"
I said "Here we go, WD40!" (local pressure pack thread release ), and I pretend squirted all of his joints.
Reduced his frown of concentration a little bit, at least.
 

Varmintmist

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Don't know it it will help, but I came back to motorcycles before I came back to skis, but in the thread on the infinity turn, I stated the feeling is a lot like taking curves on a bike. You start keeping your head looking through the turn, not at the turn, take a body position, start your angle with a countersteer, pick your line, roll on throttle through the turn loading your suspension, straighten up, feel the weight come off, and start the transition to the next turn by taking a head and body position. The MC tires go farther in the turn than your head, like your skis are supposed to in joined turns. You can notice it on newbie riders because they will pick a line to close to center and their heads will be in the oncoming lane.

As far as shooting analogy's, my thing is high power (though I am not very good at it :) ) and I cant think of much that would cross over. In HP you are trying to build "bone bridges" to the dirt and doing away with all movement. There is a rhythm to find on rapid fire, but other than that its mostly centered concentration on no movement. When you are shooting the short range targets at 200yds where the X ring is the size of a snuff can on your hind feet, movement is not your friend.

Kayaking is a similar separation of torso and hips. A good kayak stroke is accomplished with the core and is more twisting the hips than pulling with arms. Angulation plays a part also. If you are using a expedition kayak, edge turns make that 18' spin a lot faster.
One thing that really helped me was Toes, nose, knees for stance.

I stuck my pointers and thumbs together out in front of me chest high every time I started dropping my hands back or skied holding my poles in front in both hands, handle to basket, keeping the pointy ends towards the sides of the run. That got my weight fwd and body in a better position.
 

Stacks

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Read once about thinking of turning in powder like using a dimmer light switch, gradually apply the pressure throughout the turn as opposed to a more abrupt on/off movement. This is a good focus for me, that is when and if we get 'powder'.
 
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john petersen

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good stuff you guy!...keep it going.

Ill post my riflery analogy but be warned....its wordy and a more of a mental exercise to push my abilities with analogies....but I'm glad I did it!.....anything else seems "easy" by comparison!

riflery/skiing analogy

I have found a commonality between the skills criteria and coaching cues in both skiing and target sports. This is pretty far out there, but I have been able to work sound principles of biomechanics, the CAP model, the Teaching Model, the Skills Concept, the Fundamentals, and much of what we do as instructors into both disciplines. This mental exercise in teaching for transfer is based on experience, observation and a wee bit of learned material. We humans have a way about us when we learn and eventually master the skills we decide to pursue.

I am a target sports director in the Summer to kids ages 8-18 and have developed a successful teaching system that helps them help themselves. Throughout an introduction and several cycles of guided review, I refer them to a skills based chart featuring techniques combined with coaching cue reminders. I developed this visual aid through my years coaching and it reflects what I have learned helping them overcome struggles, refine their technique and mental approach and begin to realize the satisfaction of consistently shooting successful targets. I really enjoy the epiphanies and breakthroughs as well as all those questions. I have had the unique experience of watching the same group of campers develop from year to year. Some of them, for more than a decade. I have seen the concept of the CAP model's "ages and stages" in action....and my ladder style chart works great, even with the youngest age groups.

"The Shot Sequence" is what I call the chart and it features skill based "ladder rungs". These rungs add a focus that builds on the one before it until a shot can be fired efficiently. What makes the ladder versatile is the fact that when an errant shot is fired, a quick check of the chart shows that one of the steps on the way up the ladder has been missed or rushed. With a little guided help, the shooter can figure out for themselves where they went wrong or got distracted, ect. We can "read" the errant shots on a completed target in much the same way we access skiing performance after a few turns or a few runs. This is what allows my shooters to internalize their own solutions for subsequent targets. It's no wonder why we focus so strongly on the fundamentals in lessons, clinics and exams. If something is not working in our skiing, we can check back with our "baseline" to see where strengths and struggles are occurring.

Firing a shot with a .22 target rifle takes focus, concentration, patience, solid procedure, and a fair amount of Zen. Its a sport where part of the discipline is finding a "zone" through calm focus. A very experienced recreational shooter can hit a spot the size of a dime at 50 ft....5 times on each target, for several targets, with open target sights. (no scopes)

Our benchmarks in ski instruction, based on those fundamentals, are represented in our wedge, wedge christie open parallel and dynamic parallel turns.....and now recently, in our high performance turns on the latest generations of shaped skis. The epitome and culmination of these skills is to organically apply them to as many conditions and pitches as we feel comfortable attempting to experience.

I find being in the zone when skiing and the zen of riflery similar....We know good skiing when we feel and see it. When you're in the zone and the turns are just flowing from one into another, there is nothing like it....its almost purely experiential. Firing a bullseye with a target rifle gives me the same satisfaction as a great turn. With the shot, all the preparation is done by the time trigger squeeze is taking place. The "Zen" is staying in the zone not only when the shot fires, but after it does, usually resulting in a great shot! With skiing, if you have a nice early turn initiation and a little discipline, the body of the turn (the trigger squeeze phase) is a piece of cake.

So here is the shot sequence: Call them Fundamentals for Target Sports in Riflery .

get into position:
This is akin to our good athletic neutral stance. Getting into a good position takes into account CoM/BoS and directs pressure along the length of our "support devices"....In riflery there are 3 accepted positions for competition, prone, kneeling and standing. Each has its own unique base of support. In Prone there are roughly 8 points of contact with the ground, in kneeling there are 3, standing, 2. In skiing, we deal with dynamic forces of gravity, pressure and momentum, while in riflery we are dealing with static forces of gravity, pressure and momentum (the complete lack of momentum) . There is also an upper/lower body component to target sports most notably in kneeling and standing. The lower body faces anywhere from 30-90 degrees away from the target, depending on position. This alignment is critical so that the upper/lower body and the resulting alignment of the rifle on the target is spot on. This translates into consistent shots. Coming to terms with finding the sweet spot in our shooting is like learning how to add counter or adjust our base of support naturally in skiing....when and how much takes time and practice.

sight alignment/sight picture:
If the rifle is off to the right or left because a new shooter is only looking through the front or rear sight, the shot will likely not hit the target even though they have a "good sight picture". We must be aligned with the rifle looking through both sights simultaneously. This happens when your dominant eye is aligned with the rifle barrel by being centered in both sights. This is a very basic concept but noteworthy because it can be overlooked. Having custom footbeds for proper alignment or custom boot work so that we can sense what our equipment is doing is also one of those things that is taken for granted sometimes. If an adjustment is off in our boot work, we may have difficulty making appropriate adjustments in our stance or application of skills resulting in too much flexion, not enough or sloppy alignment. I keyed into this with regard to riflery a few seasons ago. It seemed so basic, but if the dominant eye is not centered in the rear sight, deliberately, then focusing on the front sight is premature. it leads to inconsistencies in the shot group that can be elusive to detect!......perhaps boots that need adjustment or liners that have worn out is equally hard to diagnose except for a few very trained eyes!

refine position (NPA):
This is like skiing skeletally. What we are looking for in riflery is called our Natural Point of Aim or NPA. It is the most natural position we can shoot from. It uses our body for support through functional alignment of body segments. This takes patience as it can be elusive, but once found, will enhance performance tremendously. In skiing, this is like refining all of our skills for a nice blend through good stance/skeletal alignment. The goal for both disciplines is natural, muscularly efficient functional stability. Interestingly enough, we do this while very much IN motion while skiing, and very much MOTIONLESS while shooting.
I have been able to use very similar coaching cues when talking about "functional tension in the core" or "upper/lower body separation", or "neutral balanced stance". I have even been known to say "shoot skeletally"

Breathing:
We have to control our breathing in both disciplines. In riflery, the procedure is to continue breathing until you are ready to begin squeezing the trigger....then hold your breath for up to 7-8 seconds until after the shot breaks, or if it has not, release pressure on the trigger and start the process again; squeezing the trigger only after you have relaxed your breathing. In skiing, the goal is to remember to keep breathing, especially when it's steep or challenging. Both situations bring to attention a procedure for success. The DIRT is a little different!

trigger squeeze:
In riflery, all that has come before it sets up the final two stages of firing a single shot. Trigger squeeze is a progressive movement of the trigger finger where the middle of the first pad of that finger makes contact on the lower third of the trigger for optimal leverage and ease of pull. We are managing pressure on that trigger. squeeze too hard or too fast and the shot pulls left or right, missing your intended shot group. Set your edges too hard at the end of the turn and its difficult to ease into the next one. The finger on the trigger must continue to move through the shot and beyond, just as we must continue to flex and extend throughout our turns managing pressure from certain spots under our feet (CoP). In skiing, we can focus on fine ankle and foot movements, or appropriate amounts of lead change to refine our technique, just like finding the sweet spots with the finger on the trigger, palm on the pistol grip or cheek placement on the rifle stock.

follow through:
"NO PEEKING!" Ill say if I see my shooters peek over the sights after the shot fires. Curiosity gets the better of them and they want to see how they did. My solution is to have shooters continue to look through their sights after the shot fires, not over them. If you peek, you move the rifle, and that affects the shot!...(believe it or not, the bullet is still coming out of the end of the barrel as they begin peeking!. Since they move the rifle barrel down to peek over the sights, guess where the shot hits the paper?)
A long time ago, we used to end our turns with a check and an up unweighting to get the skis to come around for the next turn. Tactically, I can dial this into my skiing when needed, and its also kinda fun! It takes an open mind and a little courage to extend in older as well as newer ways and take full advantage of our boot and ski designs. And of course, it takes practice. "NO PEEKING" between turns...."keep guiding the skis with the legs while moving your upper body foragonally into the new turn"........."look through your sights and maintain a good sight picture!"

Just like comparing and contrasting side stepping and 1,000 steps, or the two ends of the spectrum between a purely flat skidded ski and a carving one, I have chosen to look at an activity where one of the main goals is to become almost completely motionless, compared to an activity where constant motion is key. We talk about the same muscle groups and their functional activity, alignment of body segments, duration, intensity and timing of skill application.

Lateral learning can definitely help coaches and students in almost any activity or sport learn by guidance and sharing as opposed to simple direction. It also helps our guests to internalize key concepts, and begin to take ownership of their own endeavors. Skills that our guests can take with them and remember to use when we are not around can help them practice on their own and our style of facilitating a sport we are passionate about, will hopefully keep them coming back for more.

I think this exercise attempts to point out that instruction in all sports has many commonalities between the disciplines and, once you get going, its easy to find many similarities that can be transferred through our guidance in skiing. Look to the greatest examples of any sport and Ill bet you can find some answers as to what makes them great by thinking about what they are doing to make it happen......The deeper you look, the more questions you have as you simultaneously get more answers! I've taken a hard look at comparing skiing and Riflery of all things. challenge yourself to analyze a transferable sport that you love and see how deep into it you can get.....the analogies you come up with may surprise you.


JP
 

Varmintmist

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good stuff you guy!...keep it going.

Ill post my riflery analogy but be warned....its wordy and a more of a mental exercise to push my abilities with analogies....but I'm glad I did it!.....anything else seems "easy" by comparison!
Its a bit of a stretch :)

riflery/skiing analogy
Going to go along with the Zone. You know it when you are in it.

So here is the shot sequence: Call them Fundamentals for Target Sports in Riflery .

get into position:


sight alignment/sight picture:

refine position (NPA):
This is like skiing skeletally. What we are looking for in riflery is called our Natural Point of Aim or NPA. It is the most natural position we can shoot from. It uses our body for support through functional alignment of body segments. This takes patience as it can be elusive, but once found, will enhance performance tremendously. In skiing, this is like refining all of our skills for a nice blend through good stance/skeletal alignment. The goal for both disciplines is natural, muscularly efficient functional stability. Interestingly enough, we do this while very much IN motion while skiing, and very much MOTIONLESS while shooting.
I have been able to use very similar coaching cues when talking about "functional tension in the core" or "upper/lower body separation", or "neutral balanced stance". I have even been known to say "shoot skeletally"

Bone bridges
Separating the sight alignment and position from NPA might not be the best way to bring the kid around. I like taking a person in prone, let them get their sight pic, and then closing their eyes and move the rifle around and let them tell me where they are. Then, move their right foot to put them on target. Then make them hump up or hump down. (move your bum into the mat or out to change elevation) I am fond of this vid for offhand and it goes over the sitting pos as well. High power is shot offhand and rapid fire sitting or kneeling at 200, rapid fire prone at 300, and prone slow at 600

Breathing:
We have to control our breathing in both disciplines. In riflery, the procedure is to continue breathing until you are ready to begin squeezing the trigger....then hold your breath for up to 7-8 seconds until after the shot breaks, or if it has not, release pressure on the trigger and start the process again; squeezing the trigger only after you have relaxed your breathing. In skiing, the goal is to remember to keep breathing, especially when it's steep or challenging. Both situations bring to attention a procedure for success. The DIRT is a little different! Just a thought, but I learned from a distinguished shooter that I was wrong holding my breath. If your position is built correctly, you STOP your breath, and break the trigger in 4 seconds. A really good drill that sounds easy is a holding drill. Get into position, get NPA, hold it for 30 seconds, have someone say go, then refine and dry fire in 4. It has helped my offhand a lot.


follow through:
"NO PEEKING!" Ill say if I see my shooters peek over the sights after the shot fires. Curiosity gets the better of them and they want to see how they did. My solution is to have shooters continue to look through their sights after the shot fires, not over them. If you peek, you move the rifle, and that affects the shot!...(believe it or not, the bullet is still coming out of the end of the barrel as they begin peeking!. Since they move the rifle barrel down to peek over the sights, guess where the shot hits the paper?)
A long time ago, we used to end our turns with a check and an up unweighting to get the skis to come around for the next turn. Tactically, I can dial this into my skiing when needed, and its also kinda fun! It takes an open mind and a little courage to extend in older as well as newer ways and take full advantage of our boot and ski designs. And of course, it takes practice. "NO PEEKING" between turns...."keep guiding the skis with the legs while moving your upper body foragonally into the new turn"........."look through your sights and maintain a good sight picture!"

follow through is nessessary in everything.


JP
 

MikeS

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A lot of what I am trying to do with guest is to take away their edges, to keep them from pushing hard down on the ski like they are always hitting the brakes. One thing I mention is to use the skis like a butter knife and spread the peanut but gently over the bread , not rip at it and tear up the bread. I'll keep at them by telling them don't rip up our snow we need to preserve it. As they progress and spread the butter more their turn shape really ramps up.

I use a butter knife analogy as well, but I expand it even further to cover all aspects of edge angles and edge controls. If I can use it over lunch or during a snack break, where I actually have a piece of bread, some butter, and a butter knife, all the better. If not, I use my hands.

I talk about how you can use a butter knife to smear butter on a piece of bread, or you can use it to cut that same piece of bread. What is the difference? Just the angle of the knife and the amount of pressure you put on the blade. A butter knife at a low angle with little pressure will slide across the surface of the bread and smear butter. But that same knife at a high angle with more pressure will cut into the bread and can carve it into pieces.

So I'm using the analogy expansively to explain an entire aspect of ski control, and I'm incorporating skiing terminology to allow for an easier transfer of knowledge.
 

Mendieta

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I use a butter knife analogy as well, but I expand it even further to cover all aspects of edge angles and edge controls. If I can use it over lunch or during a snack break, where I actually have a piece of bread, some butter, and a butter knife, all the better. If not, I use my hands.

I talk about how you can use a butter knife to smear butter on a piece of bread, or you can use it to cut that same piece of bread. What is the difference? Just the angle of the knife and the amount of pressure you put on the blade. A butter knife at a low angle with little pressure will slide across the surface of the bread and smear butter. But that same knife at a high angle with more pressure will cut into the bread and can carve it into pieces.

So I'm using the analogy expansively to explain an entire aspect of ski control, and I'm incorporating skiing terminology to allow for an easier transfer of knowledge.

You are also making me hungry :roflmao:. Great thread, indeed!

My first instructor taught me on day one how to turn, by pressing the ski of the outside leg, as if it was a gas pedal in a car. And the guy from Ski School on Youtube (Incisive Media) teaches turning to beginners with a clutch accelerator analogy. Very similar, but it also introduces the concept of transferring weight from the inside ski (clutch) to the outside (accelerator) ski.
 
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john petersen

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Varmintmist, thanks for posting that vid of rifle instruction. yes, my analogy is a bit of a stretch, but that was the idea..... :)

Bone Bridges is a good analogy.... "skeletal stacking", "skeletal alignment", is very similar.....

Yes, and I should have clarified, we continue to breath while shooting until just about ready to fire...then that ideal 4-5 seconds window comes into play. (a little vague in my description) then, all thats left in the shot sequence is trigger squeeze and follow through.......

we do a good amount of dry firing....(as much as kids will tolerate.....of course the reward is shooting live)....we are not a shooting camp, but an outdoor activities camp. If I only had more time with them!

The reason I identify different parts of the shot sequence is for reference. Like any exercise-progression, assimilation and smooth performance is the goal. ......If we have something concrete to refer to, it also makes it easier to check the list for clues to what may have gone awry. They can do this on their own or in a more guided way.

Once each "step" is learned, it becomes second nature. Then, we can blend the other skills for smooth performance (conscious/subconscious mind) If a skill needs to be revisited, it is usually for reminders or further refinement.

Mike, the butter knife analogy is great. I like the way you add depth to it....very clear.

JP
 

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As a transference from another thread, I like the analogy to dance, dance taken to a high level such that it might as well be considered a sport. Specifically, ballroom dancing and ballet come to mind. Useful analogy from intermediate and up.

I ask others to visualize a dance floor. For intermediates, this is preferably a consistent slope over a visible area, with no double fall lines. If it were flat, how would you dance in the direction of the fall line? How would you hold your upper body if you were Fred or Ginger, or Baryshnikov? Focus on holding the upper body that way across the floor.
The legs? Intermediates and higher know what to do. Just do it.

There's so much said about upper and lower body separation, yet hardly anyone talks about what to really do with the upper body, and how to demonstrate it.

Se 2:05, 2:34, 3:44, 4:00 in this video


Try it yourself. It takes focus. If one focuses on the upper body control when skiing, the legs of an intermediate skier and up will do what is needed.

One note, one needs to know the fall line of the dance floor. Most intermediates and many advanced skiers have not practiced identifying the fall line. In the alpine, forget it, they're lost. No way to see the dance floor.

I like asking skiers to remove skis and to walk, then run down the dance floor, asking how they feel moving and turning down the fall line, the how they feel moving and turning along a direction off fall line.

I am also of the opinion that beginners need to be taught how to ski, racers need to be coached on how to go fast, and everyone else simply need to be shown how to play, and dance.

This is a good one too, particularly the way they ascend the steps. Hold ones upper body that way when dancing down our snow covered dance floor

 
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I am also of the opinion that beginners need to be taught how to ski, racers need to be coached on how to go fast, and everyone else simply need to be shown how to play, and dance.

I like that!

JP
 

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I forgot. I mentioned Baryshnikov,


IMO, the standard for great skiing in difficult terrain is to make it playful and to make it look easy, like Baryshnikov analogy. Truly beautiful skiing can be the relatively easier Fred and Ginger analogy, though still not easy. Or, it can be highly athletic beauty, like Baryshnikov, or like EH in this video, particularly the first half, in the pillows.

 
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karlo

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Other analogy. This one is a sport we humans no longer engage in, swinging in trees.


The monkey uses the conservation of angular momentum to generate speed. At the beginning of the swing, legs are extended. Slingshotting around, the legs retract. Same principle as a ballet dancer or figure skater pulling in extended arms and legs to generate rotational speed. So, start a turn early, well extended. This can even be at the backside of a bump, near its top, swoop down, pull in the legs, which are now to one's side, and wheee! :)

The physics and analysis may not be right. But, it's an image that works for me.
 

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IIRC you posted that video in another thread. I didn't see the connection then and I'm still lost on it.
I do, however, see the connection with dancing to skiing and the body movements. I particularly like the upper/lower body separation.
 

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I didn't see the connection then and I'm still lost on it

Have you ever slingshotted from one turn to another? Often times, one is doing the transition almost in the air, skimming the surface of the snow, and regaining contact with the other edge. Pay less mind to the description in the last sentence and more attention to the feeling of being slingshotted? Please address this question before continuing too read.

The energy of our descent is converted to going across the hill, and at far higher speed than we were going down the hill, which, btw, seems like something one would want to do if one were racing, and trying to get to a gate to the left or right quickly (racing isn't just how fast a reader can go down, it's also how much does that can be generated to get to a gate that is to ones right or left) . That's essentially what is happening in the monkey video, both in vertical and horizontal swings.

Now, one can look at the mechanics and maybe, though I am not a physicist, the physics. I described it in the post above, about the monkey's use of its legs. But, another analogy is our slingshotting space exploration vessels around the sun or around planets and moons, except its not gravity pulling it to the center, its our skis creating the inward force, creating the angular momentum, something both we and the monkey is using.

I've heard and read the use of the word 'rebound'. Maybe what I refer to as slingshot is the same. But, rebound seems to refer to what the skis are doing. Slingshot is referring to the feeling I have. I feel like being slingshotted through a turn into the next.

Which leads me to another observation. In another thread, someone posted a video of a high performance driver teaching a passenger how to push the rear of a BMW out while going around a curve at high speed. I remarked that if only an instructor could out us in his boots, so we could feel what we are trying to achieve. Ski instruction is like that BMW passenger not being allowed to sit in the car with the instructor driving, to feel what its like, being told just to get into the driver seat, then told to do this with the steering wheel, that with the accelerator, the other thing with the brakes, then yet another thing with the clutch and shifter, crazy. I think dancing is a way to impart a 'feeling'. I think the monkey video, though we can no longer swing on a tree, imparts a feeling.

Also, the ballroom dancing and ballet not only illustrate body separation. Doing it imparts the feelings of upper body quietly skimming the floor, weightlessness, weight transfer, landing on one's feet or foot in balance, fore aft control. Though the skills of dancing are transferrable to skiing, I am also trying to impart the feelings one derives.
 
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john petersen

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Karlo, I think I get what you are saying...though some of the language is a little confusing.
The monkey uses the conservation of angular momentum to generate speed. At the beginning of the swing, legs are extended. Slingshotting around, the legs retract. Same principle as a ballet dancer or figure skater pulling in extended arms and legs to generate rotational speed.

Here, I think you mean that the monkey is using momentum through manipulating arc and centripetal force to generate enough speed to reach the next target....if so, I would agree there. The SENSATION is centrifugal. We would feel the swing as our brain pushes down in our skull, ect, ect, (enter biomech tech here)......

The legs extend and retract to add accuracy and efficiency to the movements so "that neat monkey" as said by the little kid, times his "air time" to reach the next hand hold, much like we do if getting a little air time between turns. The monkey reaches with his hands, we reach with our feet...or something like that.

We can still swing (not meant to be a dance analogy) as seen in many free climbing vids and ropes courses, high elements, ect so we have not totally lost our ancient lineage.

When we can put all those separate sensations together while skiing so we get a good feeling at any given moment or run or for the day, ect.....we are doing pretty good.

JP
 

Tricia

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Have you ever slingshotted from one turn to another? Often times, one is doing the transition almost in the air, skimming the surface of the snow, and regaining contact with the other edge. Pay less mind to the description in the last sentence and more attention to the feeling of being slingshotted? Please address this question before continuing too read.
I have had that feeling. It makes me think more of the medicine ball imagery than a monkey swinging from a tree.
See Bob's Infinity Move thread here.
 

karlo

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monkey is using momentum through manipulating arc and centripetal force to generate enough speed to reach the next target....if so, I would agree there. The SENSATION is centrifugal

The legs extend and retract to add accuracy and efficiency

I wrote "Slingshotting around, the legs retract.". I should have written this instead. By retracting the legs, the velocity increase, such that upon release of the branch, the monkey is slingshotted at speed to the next branch. Yes, centrifugal force I suppose is in play. But, the feeling I refer to is the acceleration at leg retraction (our leg retraction and maybe or feet coming back towards the COM per the infinity motion @Tricia directs our attention to) and the weightlessness at release of branch ( release of edge)

makes me think more of the medicine ball imagery

Sorry, is medicine ball related to infinity move?

In the infinity move video, I see the COM accelerating in velocity as the feet come back in. Upon release of turn, I imagine a feeling of weightlessness. So, yes, I get it. Hard to put myself in a dot though, to feel it. But, I think there is more. Feet coming back to the COM I suppose will accelerate is. But, I also think high extension of legs, followed by retraction during the turn will generate lots of angular velocity. Anyway, the point is the feeling the skier endeavors to feel, and how to convey that, not what physics it is attributable to. No monkey is trying to understand why leg retraction accelerates it, at least not to my knowledge outside Planet of the Apes.
 

KingGrump

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Even for the great Bob Barnes, the infinity move is the product of a evolution that occurred over the years.

Before the infinity move there was the x move.

Prior to that there was the medicine ball.
 

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