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Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
Skier
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Jan 16, 2016
Posts
1,984
Location
Metuchen, NJ
I think that there is waaaaaaaay too much emphasis on binding placement. If your weight is centered and you are standing on your entire foot. If you can wiggle the toes of both feet throughout all phases of a turn, you are probably centered. If in your video analysis and MA you see your heel and toe rotating an equal amount around the point where your tibia intersects with your foot, you are probably centered. By being centered the ski will act predictably and you will have the greatest range of options available to you.

In the product development process each major manufacturer has a team of developers. I can say with absolute certainty that individually they share info and sometimes ski on each others' protos. When the final protos are built and by the time the first production run hits the major manufacturers may have had 25 - 35+ very talented skiers on those skis. This is not static process limited to our snow season, but involves travel of testers and protos to wherever the snow is, often for 12 months of the year. These are often people who have been doing this for decades, are impeccably skilled at technical skiing, can make any ski do what they want. They will ski the ski in a fashion that is consistent with the movement patterns of the target consumer. Sometimes, a model will be killed or altered (and not always for the best) because price point / expectations do not meet market analysis or management's goals. Note that I say major manufacturers (and I put Stockli into that category due to attention to detail and their development process). Many manufacturers simply don;'t have the resources, or don't have the talent pool, or don't have their development calendar dialed to complete this due diligence.

In 30 years of teaching I've run across a few people who would have benefited from moving a binding, but those are instances that I could count on one hand. It is often the Indian, not the arrow.

But maybe if the Indian were a little closer to the target he'd make the shot.
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
Skier
Team Gathermeister
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Nov 12, 2015
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Even if binding placement is over-thought, when you spend that kind of money you want to optimize, not go for good enough.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,856
In the product development process each major manufacturer has a team of developers. I can say with absolute certainty that individually they share info and sometimes ski on each others' protos. When the final protos are built and by the time the first production run hits the major manufacturers may have had 25 - 35+ very talented skiers on those skis. This is not static process limited to our snow season, but involves travel of testers and protos to wherever the snow is, often for 12 months of the year. These are often people who have been doing this for decades, are impeccably skilled at technical skiing, can make any ski do what they want. They will ski the ski in a fashion that is consistent with the movement patterns of the target consumer. Sometimes, a model will be killed or altered (and not always for the best) because price point / expectations do not meet market analysis or management's goals. Note that I say major manufacturers (and I put Stockli into that category due to attention to detail and their development process). Many manufacturers simply don;'t have the resources, or don't have the talent pool, or don't have their development calendar dialed to complete this due diligence.

In 30 years of teaching I've run across a few people who would have benefited from moving a binding, but those are instances that I could count on one hand. It is often the Indian, not the arrow.
...And yet they miss the mark all the time. Let's not pretend there's much science involved. While it won't change someone's skiing, it may change someone's enjoyment and effort required to use a ski. It used to be quite common for shops to have a table for race skis to change mount based on testing after the skis were marked by the factory. I don't know if this is still the case.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Posts
2,232
...And yet they miss the mark all the time. Let's not pretend there's much science involved. While it won't change someone's skiing, it may change someone's enjoyment and effort required to use a ski. It used to be quite common for shops to have a table for race skis to change mount based on testing after the skis were marked by the factory. I don't know if this is still the case.

A little perspective... For most of my career I was one of the guys designing and developing gear that people on this board use, and that you likely use. Hence, my moniker as "Industry Insider". In my last position I owned a design / manufacturing company where brands contracted their work out to us if it was beyond their core competency. We were successful enough that I am gainfully retired at an early age.

To say, "...they miss the mark all the time." isn't giving justice to how the process works. If you are truly educated in the process, have worked in and worked with a variety of factories, spent a week at home and every other week in factories in other countries... Then you know how this goes down.

Certainly there is no "science" behind it, just as there is no "science" to engineering sizing mannequins - the range of human anthropomorphic features is too broad for a one size / one brand fits all approach - you "tailor" to your core audience.

A few ski manufacturers don't go through the process that I described. A few shop guys, the owner of the brand, and a few bro-dudes test the product. They test and develop to how they, and who they feel their core audience is, skis. That audience can be exceedingly narrow, and the testers may be good technical skiers, or not.

The world of product designers and developers is exceedingly small. We all run into each other at predetermined times in the product development cycle in Asia and Europe. While we are competitors we see each other's protos in sample rooms and often we socialize together while overseas. We know which company is a shit show based on the diligence of their developers and processes, the QA processes of the factories that they contract out to and the third party independent labs that they use - and which labs takes bribes and which don't.

If a 30 year developer for a particular brand, a guy who let's say was on the US Team, then coached the US team, a few other national teams, wrote one of the bibles of ski racing, ran one of the most storied ski schools in the country, tells me to mount ski line to boot center I am inclined to believe them and put more effort into my technical skills as a skier if I can't drive that ski.
 

Turnoisier

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
31
@martyg, that's very interesting. Couple of quick (and possibly stupid) questions. Do the major manufacturers put any time into considering and/or testing particular bindings for their skis? By that I mean do they spend any time thinking about how a particular ramp angle, binding weight or stack height etc. might affect the characteristics of a particular ski? Or is that assumed to be so variable between different skiers that there is no point trying to control for it? Or, alternatively is it deemed to have so little impact on the way a ski works that it is not worth bothering about?
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Posts
2,232
@martyg, that's very interesting. Couple of quick (and possibly stupid) questions. Do the major manufacturers put any time into considering and/or testing particular bindings for their skis? By that I mean do they spend any time thinking about how a particular ramp angle, binding weight or stack height etc. might affect the characteristics of a particular ski? Or is that assumed to be so variable between different skiers that there is no point trying to control for it? Or, alternatively is it deemed to have so little impact on the way a ski works that it is not worth bothering about?

Turn - no such thing as a stupid question and thanks for asking. Apologies for the late response. I have been in the weeds with instruction.

With market consolidation virtually every ski brand, as part of their holding company's portfolio, is associated with a binding company. Those that are not part of a holding company likely have a relationship with a binding company. They will get boxes of demo units to mount on skis, so binding selection tends to be very homogeneous within each brand. Those smaller brands that are not.... They typically have a box of random bindings, and their protos look like Swiss Cheese from bindings that have been moved and re drilled so many time.

Stack height is definitely a consideration. Keep in mind that designers are designing for, and testers are testing the ski, for the particular demographic - if it is a beginner ski is it stable? Does it butter with predictability? Will it engage an edge enough to provide the skier with that feedback, without being twitchy? .... And of course advanced skis will also have a criteria based on that consumer target. Ramp - that is far less a consideration. Ski brands want a ski to ski well out of the box, because that is how 90% of the skiing public rocks. If the conversation on the development side is that with "X" we can get 4% greater performance out of the ski, but the set-up for the shop / consumer might be less convenient..... Likely that 4% will never get implemented.

Note that as far as pricing.... It cost the same to develop a product that you are selling 500 units of as it does if you are selling 500,000 units (I would spend more time in the design phase for 500,000 units to insure easy of manufacturing to control costs). Some of the cost goes to design, tooling, testing, etc. A company like Stockli does not have a huge production run. In the cost of each of Stockli's skis those aspects occupy a larger percentage of the total cost than let's same in a K2 (I know - produced in Asia - apples to oranges). In the end the consumer will decide if the added costs is worth it.
 

slowrider

Trencher
Skier
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Posts
4,558
At my meager skills when I change boots & skis each day. After a few runs of adjustments it's all good.
 

smv

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Posts
45
Hi Guys,

New member here and owner of the AX at 175 with the AM12 bindings. I've been following this thread and I am tempted to try out moving slightly to the front but do not want to undrill/redrill. I was wondring, and excuse my ignorance on the technical aspects behind this, (just an intermediate skier), moving the binding adjustements by 2 clicks in the front, is this how to do a forward shift of the center?
Is this adding any risk, all other settings (DIN, fwd pressure, toe hight) being equal?

Here are 2 pics without boots and with boots. (Sole lenght 318mm / 27.5)

- Top shows original setting
- Bottom shows adjusted version (+10mm to the front)

Thnx for any input...
 

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Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
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Joined
Nov 1, 2015
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42,887
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Reno, eNVy
Hi Guys,

New member here and owner of the AX at 175 with the AM12 bindings. I've been following this thread and I am tempted to try out moving slightly to the front but do not want to undrill/redrill. I was wondring, and excuse my ignorance on the technical aspects behind this, (just an intermediate skier), moving the binding adjustements by 2 clicks in the front, is this how to do a forward shift of the center?
Is this adding any risk, all other settings (DIN, fwd pressure, toe hight) being equal?

Here are 2 pics without boots and with boots. (Sole lenght 318mm / 27.5)

- Top shows original setting
- Bottom shows adjusted version (+10mm to the front)

Thnx for any input...
Yes, that is how it works. You are telling the toe that you are in a 328mm shell and he heel you are in a 308mm.
 

Rostapher

All Praise Ullr
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2018
Posts
279
Location
SoCal - Inland Empire
Old thread I know, but 2 people here @smv & @Turnoisier mentioned having the AM12 binding on the AX, and I haven’t found much info about it otherwise. How is it? Is it worth keeping or do you need a pair of Attack13s or Wardens to really get the best performance out of the ski?

Reason being... 175 AX with AM12 on ebay!
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/233482738261

Hi Guys,

New member here and owner of the AX at 175 with the AM12 bindings. I've been following this thread and I am tempted to try out moving slightly to the front but do not want to undrill/redrill. I was wondring, and excuse my ignorance on the technical aspects behind this, (just an intermediate skier), moving the binding adjustements by 2 clicks in the front, is this how to do a forward shift of the center?
Is this adding any risk, all other settings (DIN, fwd pressure, toe hight) being equal?

Here are 2 pics without boots and with boots. (Sole lenght 318mm / 27.5)

- Top shows original setting
- Bottom shows adjusted version (+10mm to the front)

Thnx for any input...
 

smv

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Posts
45
Old thread I know, but 2 people here @smv & @Turnoisier mentioned having the AM12 binding on the AX, and I haven’t found much info about it otherwise. How is it? Is it worth keeping or do you need a pair of Attack13s or Wardens to really get the best performance out of the ski?

Reason being... 175 AX with AM12 on ebay!
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/233482738261


Rostapher, I am not an expert, rather an intermediate trying to move to the next level, adv.intermediate. I don't believe I am at such level to judge differences between bindings. I bought the 17-18 Laser AX (175) with the AM12 as it came from factory and traded a previous Stockli model Spirit Globe with MX 12 (?) on them. Did i see a difference? Certainly yes, but rather due to the ski not the binding per se.. (for me they are set at 6 and as long as they lock and there is no play they are good for my skiing). So good, that when I traded my Laser AX (175) to the latest 19-20 model (at 168) the shop recommended I keep the AM12s as they were good enough and no need to spend more money on new bindings. So for my relaxed weekend skiing with family and friends the AM12 is perfect for what it is and for the ski I do with the AX. Can the ski go further an pushed more? Certainly yes but I have another pair of SX (170) with SP12 and plate ( factory fitted) for skiing alone and practicing carving and high speed descents.. Do I see a difference wrt the AX? Huge! But then again it is due to the sticks. Again, as long as the bindings click and lock/unlock correctly, they are good for me to go!
 

Rostapher

All Praise Ullr
Skier
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Joined
Nov 12, 2018
Posts
279
Location
SoCal - Inland Empire
So good, that when I traded my Laser AX (175) to the latest 19-20 model (at 168) the shop recommended I keep the AM12s as they were good enough and no need to spend more money on new bindings.
Really good info @smv. It must be a pretty decent binding if they recommended moving it to a new AX. Also, I didn’t know it was the factory binding, so that’s good to know as well. Thanks! :thumb:
 
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