Stem cell injections for the knees

[PTskier]

4 month update:

Both knees, especially the more damaged right, continue to get better. I'm able to exercise longer and harder and feel good the next day. My mantra...don't damage it. Exercises like squats and lunges are limited to about 45°. I'm doing squats with moderate weights, reverse lunges (step back) with weights, leg extension machine one leg at a time (I'd been easing off the side with the bad knee, that thigh shrunk, now I'm working to build & equalize my thigh strength), and working hamstrings, abductors & adductors. I'm doing 30 minutes on the elliptical machine at a target heart rate of about 75% of the max for my age. If there is some pain, ice is a big help, as is CBD. If the pain is merely discomfort, naproxen helps. Only time...and the first ski day later this month...will tell the tale for sure.

A fellow I ski with had umbilical cord stem cells injected into his knee last spring. It worked for a time, now his knees are back where he started. This treatment is similar to that in posting #37 above. To the best of my limited knowledge live stem cells are only present in fluids immediately drawn from the patient such as bone marrow or fat tissue. Only live stem cells can grow into new cartilage or ligament.

Target heart rate:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/exercise-intensity/art-20046887?pg=2
https://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/basics/measuring/heartrate.htm
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Healt...art-Rates_UCM_434341_Article.jsp#.WgH2P4hrzcs

 

[PTskier]

Bone marrow stem cell injection (plus fat cell stem cells plus platelet rich plasma) almost 7 month report.

Skied 6 days in December and 10 days in January. So far the results are good. Not 100%. Better without meds than last year with a strong anti inflammatory (Mobic/meloxicam) plus acetaminophen; even better with meds. I also tried Celebrex this year. I found that I'm allergic to that one (skin rash) as well as diclofenac (Voltaren) (hives) and meloxicam (skin rash). No problem with napoxen or CBD. Naproxen (Aleve) plus acetaminophen (Tylenol) plus CBD is working OK. A local saw bones said that naproxen or ibuprofen work against pain on one avenue, and acetaminophen works on another avenue, so combine both at label dosages for better pain relief. Naproxen works better for me than ibuprofen. The usual precautions apply.

So...skiing well as long as the pitch isn't too steep so a lot of force is on that right knee. Definite improvement. Still some high discomfort/low pain on the right knee in left turns on steep slopes.

Interesting---the improvement seems to be staying stable or maybe getting better. No pain after skiing 10 days out of 13 on the recent road trip. I'm good going up or down stairs. No knee pain after the day of skiing.

 

[neonorchid]

@PTskier, you're 7 months in, at what point will your Doc do an imaging study to compare pretreatment/posttreatment?

 

[PTskier]

No images planned. Neither the doc who did the injections nor my regular orthopod have suggested any. The results are what I feel.

For my own purposes I define discomfort as feeling something uncomfortable in the joint, but it doesn't change what I do. Pain is when I do change what I'm doing. So, minor pain on steep left turns where most of my weight is on that right knee. Otherwise, no pain. All in all, I'm significantly better off after the injections.

There are several top quality studies with stem cells going on now, including some by the FDA. We may have solid news sometime in the future. One is looking at fat tissue stem cells vs. bone marrow stem cells for arthritis treatment. Others are looking at different uses ranging from eyes to brain to veins. This has been going on a long time. A woman I ski with has an ex-husband who was doing stem cell research in the '80s. He has their daughter's umbilical blood in storage in case she ever needs her own stem cells some time in the future.

 

[Rod9301]

Unfortunately, in the US only same day procedures are allowed by the FDA, which means a few hundred thousand cells are extracted and injected.

I had stem cells cultivated for a few weeks, then injected in knees, ankles and toes, in Spain at itrt, Barcelona, in June 17.

Results so far are encouraging.

They went from 700,000 cells to 40 million.
I will have MRIs in June to see the improvement.

It had a study a few years back with 80 percent of patients showing cartilage regrowth.

 

[scott43]

I hopped on this bandwagon the other night after a rough post-hockey recovery day. Just looks like the science isn't there yet. And there are risks.. I'll continue to medicate with Advil and do my physio..

 

[PTskier]

Ibuprofen (Advil) or naproxen (Aleve) are pain relievers and anti inflammatories that work similarly. Some folks get better results from one or the other. Naproxen lasts longer. Both are hard on the gut. A doc explained to me that acetaminophen (Tylenol) works differently and can be used in combination with one of the others at label dose for better results.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

A buddy of mine who is a very athletic skier and a tri-althlete had umbilical cord stem cells injected into one of his knees in August 2017 by Dr. Courtney in Florida:

http://stemcellsolutionsofamerica.com/

My buddy says the pain is completely gone and he can ski like he did 10 years ago, before his osteoarthritis set in. My buddy's wife is a personal trainer and she says that one of her clients had multiple injections in multiple areas inflicted by osteoarthritis and that he swears that he is better for it.

I have spent some time on pubmed.gov researching the studies and my unprofessional conclusion was (from a Mayo Clinic study) that pain is statistically reduced, but that there is no proof that cartilage is regrown. And that the Mayo Clinic has just started a new study to determine whether or not cartilage, is in fact, regrown.

Apparently, there are very few before and after MRIs done in private-pay stem cell injections because the MRIs would be private pay as well, and well, the injections either work subjectively or not and why raise the expense? There was one meniscus tear study on pubmed.gov with before and after MRIs and the scientists did say that the stem cells caused cartilage regrowth in the tear area, and looking at the MRIs, it looked to me that cartilage was regrown too.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=stem+cell+therapy+for+knee+osteoarthritis

I applied to be included in a couple of knee stem cell studies which were advertised but they were on the East Coast (I live in California) and I was rejected as not a good candidate for not being local since if I didn't pay to fly back to be evaluated as required they would lose my data.

Right now, I typically ski in pain. And cannot get up from a fall without taking my skis off.

So, I hope you all post up your osteoarthritis stem cell skiing experiences because either a total knee replacement or stem cell injections are in my future for both knees.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Last Thursday, October 4, 2018, Dr. Michele Raithel, N.D., Revolutions Naturopathic, Folsom, California injected both my knees with umbilical cord stem cells sent in a cryopac from a lab in Utah.

https://revolutionsdocs.com/doctors/dr-raithel/

She took 60 cc's of blood from me, and reduced it to platelets and combined it with each vial of stem cells prior to injection. Two sites for each knee were injected, first the main capsule and then directly at the site where there was bone on bone osteoarthritis. Prior to injecting my left knee, she removed I guess about 50 cc's of synovial fluid including some floating proteins which signified inflammation. She guided the injection needle by using a hand held ultrasound transducer and screen. The cost for each knee was $3,000.

I don't know if it will work, but I do know that stem cells have helped my buddy for two years now. Although he recently told me that he believes that his injected knee is 85 % of perfect so after two years he wants another injection in that knee.

Don't expect the "science" to get "there." Since this is all private pay no science will be done. I am unwilling to pay for a before and after MRI, because I would have to pay for the MRI's out of my own pocket. For true science I would also have to agree to accept the risk that I would be a "control" meaning that I would accept the risk of paying $3,000 per knee for a placebo saline injection. Science requires some institution like the Mayo Clinic (they refused to accept me as a candidate because I was geographically unacceptable because I might not fly out East for a check up and, as a result, they would lose a datum point.) Or the Govt. Where is the California Stem Cell Initiative on this stuff? I haven't heard a word...

@Rod9301 you stated that you were going to have an MRI in June of this year? What did it objectively show? What is your subjective experience?

@PTskier How is your injected knee doing?

I will report back periodically about mine.

My alternative was a total knee replacement. When my sports med doc saw my X-rays in 2016, her comment was "When do you want your knee replaced?"

 

[RuleMiHa]

Last Thursday, October 4, 2018, Dr. Michele Raithel, N.D., Revolutions Naturopathic, Folsom, California injected both my knees with umbilical cord stem cells sent in a cryopac from a lab in Utah.

https://revolutionsdocs.com/doctors/dr-raithel/

She took 60 cc's of blood from me, and reduced it to platelets and combined it with each vial of stem cells prior to injection. Two sites for each knee were injected, first the main capsule and then directly at the site where there was bone on bone osteoarthritis. Prior to injecting my left knee, she removed I guess about 50 cc's of synovial fluid including some floating proteins which signified inflammation. She guided the injection needle by using a hand held ultrasound transducer and screen. The cost for each knee was $3,000.

I don't know if it will work, but I do know that stem cells have helped my buddy for two years now. Although he recently told me that he believes that his injected knee is 85 % of perfect so after two years he wants another injection in that knee.

Don't expect the "science" to get "there." Since this is all private pay no science will be done. I am unwilling to pay for a before and after MRI, because I would have to pay for the MRI's out of my own pocket. For true science I would also have to agree to accept the risk that I would be a "control" meaning that I would accept the risk of paying $3,000 per knee for a placebo saline injection. Science requires some institution like the Mayo Clinic (they refused to accept me as a candidate because I was geographically unacceptable because I might not fly out East for a check up and, as a result, they would lose a datum point.) Or the Govt. Where is the California Stem Cell Initiative on this stuff? I haven't heard a word...

@Rod9301 you stated that you were going to have an MRI in June of this year? What did it objectively show? What is your subjective experience?

@PTskier How is your injected knee doing?

I will report back periodically about mine.

My alternative was a total knee replacement. When my sports med doc saw my X-rays in 2016, her comment was "When do you want your knee replaced?"

Have you considered adding red light or infrared light therapy to help cells take?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

RuleMiHa: I have not heard of that. Please explain.

I probably will have Dr. Raithel inject some of my super oxygenated red blood cells into the injection sites to give the stem cells a boost in 6 weeks or so (aka "blood doping"). And I will likely get on a testosterone regimen since at 64 years old my testosterone has dropped and because testosterone is the "healing hormone" in my limited experience. About 10 years ago, I took Bulgarian Tribulus and DHEA and noticed what I attributed to be an increase in testosterone - but I never had it checked. Testosterone was on the lab panel which Dr. Raithel had me do.

 

[RuleMiHa]

RuleMiHa: I have not heard of that. Please explain.

I probably will have Dr. Raithel inject some of my super oxygenated red blood cells into the injection sites to give the stem cells a boost in 6 weeks or so (aka "blood doping"). And I will likely get on a testosterone regimen since at 64 years old my testosterone has dropped and because testosterone is the "healing hormone" in my limited experience. About 10 years ago, I took Bulgarian Tribulus and DHEA and noticed what I attributed to be an increase in testosterone - but I never had it checked. Testosterone was on the lab panel which Dr. Raithel had me do.

I've been researching and using light therapy for about six months. One of the more interesting uses seems to be in cosmetic surgery for helping transplanted fat grafts thrive. I've seen a few articles which suggest it helps stem cell transplants take as well.

Supposedly light at 660nm and 850nm acts on the intracellular cytochrome c enzyme to increase intracellular ATP production. This theoretically should improve stem cell transplant performance.

Decent lights can be purchased for $450 and there seem to be minimal side effects, so I'm just waiting to hear from someone who's tried it.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Fun reading for the hopeful (and naïve) like me:


Introduction
Cartilage contains one type of cell, the chondrocytes, and lacks the capacity for self-regeneration [1]. Cells used to repair cartilage could be obtained by biopsies from uninjured cartilage, but this approach may cause in injury to healthy cartilage. There is an increasing effort to determine optimal protocols and conditions to direct the differentiation of stem cells into chondrocytes [1, 2].

Mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) are capable of self-renewal, with the potential to differentiate into adipocytes, osteoblasts and chondrocytes, and possibly also into cardiomyocytes, skeletal myocytes, hepatocytes and neurons [3, 4]. They have been clinically investigated for their ability to repair cartilage [5]. They can be isolated and expanded from several sources, including the umbilical cord. Compared to other sources, the umbilical cord contains MSCs with higher proliferation potential and allows relatively easy and noninvasive isolation procedures [3, 4].
. . .
Conclusions
Our data suggest that MSCs could be differentiated to chondrocytes in the presence of PL (Platelet lysate) and absence of exogenous TGF-β. Further research needs to be conducted to understand the exact role and potential of PL in chondrogenic differentiation and chondrocyte regeneration.

From:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5859745/

 

[Dakine]

I had my bad knee injected with zirconium superalloy.
I'm routinely doing incline leg presses with 400#.

 

[Rod9301]

I had my bad knee injected with zirconium superalloy.
I'm routinely doing incline leg presses with 400#.

Why are you holding back on the weight?

 

[Dakine]

Why are you holding back on the weight?

Because I'm very slowly learning to act my age.
Very slowly.

 

[Jed Peters]

@Rich Peters had his done at the Tahoe Ortho clinic by Dr. Ganong (yes, that Ganong).

Pop, care to give the crew your experience?

 

[Jed Peters]

I should note that I had stem cells and PRP injected and placed into my knee, hip, and femur at the injury point.

My leg still hurts. (Which means nothing because , well, of course it does!)

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

@agreen Bob, has Reiter's Syndrome. Do you think this type of therapy would help with that type of arthritis?

 

[FredMontreal]

Very interesting thread! I had a motorcycle accident 21 years ago which left my knee completely torn. I had reconstructive surgery and I now have a trusty new brace I use for skiing but I had never heard of stem cell injections in the knee before. I will have to look into that!