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SBrown

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This. I too had never warmed up to Vonn, but this past year she's become the champion she was meant to be. And this is only partly about athletic performance: it's also about outlook on life, behavior. I don't have particular intel on that, but she's also seemed more willing to act as a mentor to others on the team. Federer also grew from a brat into a champion (and he also cries after both victories and defeats -- there's no shame in that!). Maybe Kristoffersen will wise up ;)

I was just thinking that LV has reminded me a little bit of the WIlliams sisters as they grew up/older. Different situations, for sure, but early on they were very isolated and wary of competitors, not friendly, etc. Things have totally changed over the years. Jury is still out on Sharapova ;-)
 

Started at 53

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I was just thinking that LV has reminded me a little bit of the WIlliams sisters as they grew up/older. Different situations, for sure, but early on they were very isolated and wary of competitors, not friendly, etc. Things have totally changed over the years. Jury is still out on Sharapova ;-)

My only postable response is...... :roflmao:
 

Snowflake2420

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Because LV has a gold medal in Downhill from Vancouver, perhaps it a little easier to swallow than having never won one. It's funny I've talked to people some prefer LV's clear professionalism even when getting emotional to Mikaela's, while genuine, anxious and intense focus. Interesting how interpreted differently. Personally, I respect and like both at least what I see on TV, which is all I can know as a fan. And can we agree some of the interviewing tactics (I know it's the Olympics) are with a clear agenda?
 

newfydog

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I know a couple with Alpine and Nordic WC wins in their marriage. No comparison in their work loads.

You want to see a pair who worked their butts off, check out Randal and Diggins. One fifth place after another, no burbling and whining. Just went out and won.

Edit. Got to agree with Mule--- the press went trolling for the grandpa tears.

On plane for Mexico. Winter break. Best to all!
 
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Franzz

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From my eyes there was two LV, the first one was a Predator,take no prisonner attitude and hard as a ski run at PyeongChang..
The second is now a Beast on decline with calculated friendly attitude toward others and seriously diminish
by years of training and terrible crash, she is visibly tired and exhausted from a pursuit to beat
Stenmark record...Maybe she can beat him but at what price, still wish her the best!
 

Bogatyr

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Hey, hockey is all we have!! :D Congratulations for the US women. Maybe we'll get you next time out. :)
Hockey is NOT all we have - just see the medal standing.But I said I was glad to see this happen since this would kind of bring them back to the earth.They will need to work harder now for the next 20 years domination period. The other teams don't sleep, they work hard as well (as we saw last night)
 

SBrown

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From my eyes there was two LV, the first one was a Predator,take no prisonner attitude and hard as a ski run at PyeongChang..
The second is now a Beast on decline with calculated friendly attitude toward others and seriously diminish
by years of training and terrible crash, she is visibly tired and exhausted from a pursuit to beat
Stenmark record...Maybe she can beat him but at what price, still wish her the best!

And I was just coming back to say, This is largely what I meant earlier. Time may mellow them all, but as long as they are still competitive, I don't believe for a second that they feel all that much different. They are just smarter about how to act.

Jimmy Connors was an awful human being but amazing to watch. I for one don't really care. I am just doing this for entertainment. I am tired of the Federer-Nadal lovefest. When Djokovic was young, I hoped he would add some spice, but he's too addicted to approval. (Go Kyrgeos!) Ok yes, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, but honestly the vast majority of these athletes are driven in ways we normal people would never understand, or really admire. That's ok. "I am not a role model." Different discussion for a different day.
 

dustyfog

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One. Bode has always been about line and distance. Always. I recall one of his coaches when he was joining the team joking that "Bode knows the shortest distance between two lines is a straight point." A bit backwards.....but that coach years later told my kids that "As Bode proves, some times straight and late really works...." So, he's watching line, he's watching changes in line from training run to training run to race day. And from skier to skier.

Somewhat technical and I think subtle Questions for Race Pros, Coaches, Instructors, Aficionados: Applicable to ski racers with great technique (not this poster, neither racer, nor have great technique, just for the benefit of teens and juniors I know)
  1. Isn't it more that the remark "Straight and Late" was intended to be "Straight and never late" in Giant Slalom. Isn't this what Bode refers to when he describes how Marcel H. "cuts off line".."cuts of distance" and Hirscher is ideally never late ? Clearly this is hard to do and avoid skidding etc. but please insights invited?
  2. Bode was commenting on Ted on how he always traveled a longer distance because of how he skis, the ultimate arc-to-arc but he did it faster than anyone else, but he had trouble generated that speed in S. Korea?
  3. Why is it so hard to tell how fast people are going, especially for the skiers with quieter technique, seem so smooth and they are fast but appear not to be so ? (silly question, but this viewer is curious about your perspectives)
Thanks much
 

UGASkiDawg

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All entitled to our opinions.....most based on what we see on TV cuts, or read in the largely uniformed mainstream press.
I may be a bit closer to this, relative to others. Three years ago, I was incredibly disappointed with her, in general. Mainly because she was pouring energy into "her brand", doing the S.I. bathing suit issue, trying to develop a beach and runway body, spending a lot of time in LA {to the point of buying a home there.} In general there was no camera that she didn't like. She spent less time in the gym, I hear, than ever, and less time in the summer on snow. It basically turned around after she broke her arm. And when this past spring and summer arrived with the reality of this being nearer the end of her career, I hear {from people working with her} that she was not only all in, but has never worked harder. With a few breaks in time, again, what I hear, from coaches all over the world is that nobody works harder. MS, gives us the "dual threat", as nobody spends more time on snow than she does. But not many spend 6-8 hours a day in the gym.....

So, when she says "I worked my butt off", I will cut her some slack. She could have said that "I work harder than anybody in this sport, because I am NOT a great natural athlete, and I have been doing it longer than anybody in the sport", and she would have been 100% accurate. But she did not. Not close.

The comment that everybody had the same wind, visibility, etc. to deal with is not really accurate. It hurt some, it helped others. Having a swirling wind on your tail at the right time is good. In your face, not so much. Is it wrong to say "I had some wind?" Is it wrong to explain how running #1 in the SG was no bargain? That format is stupid, and likely to change, BTW. Your #14 raked racer should nt be favored over #9 and #10.......Dumb.

The skis. OK, believe it or not, but her skis on race day were the deciding factor, and while she did not point any fingers or pitch a fit {as MANY others would have}, is it wrong to say that he skis were burned. She didn't blame her tech, or throw him under the bus. She did say that she was proud of her younger teammates. She honestly is a good friend and a big sister type to Sofia Goggia. She's a big influence on Alice McKennis, and all of the USA speed girls. BTW, nobody treated her the same when she was coming up. But here's the "acid test" on her skis. No chance on earth that the other skiers on Head, including the other two from the USA would have been that close, when she skied cleanly. She has earned the right to have the best prepped and fastest skis under her feet. The surface and conditions were very screwy. The whole ski world is saying so. Whatever was done to prep her skis, in terms of the structure and the wax/overlays........the skis were cooked about 15 seconds into her run. Any woman racer that I know {and I know "a few"} would have likely been off the wall. Let alone the best ever, in her last olympics. She may have said "yeah, my skis got burned and it cost me." The S*** that's going down away from her on this is far worse.

So, NO, not everybody dealt with base burn to that degree. Some companies evidently had remarkably little. Some Head skiers had very little, or none. Did her skis run well in the combined speed run {her terms were that they felt "good", "they were accelerating"}? Yes. Did they suck in the DH? Yep. Did everybody else's? No. Some no doubt. Just look at the USA and other Head results. So was her statement that bad?

We make a lot of judgements about people that we see in the public light. We all do. I can absolutely understand why many people might not "like" LV at all, and might be put off by her. I get it. A few years ago, I was at an event where some younger mothers were talking about what a great role model LV was. At that time, pretty sure that would be a no. Today, I'd say yes. Saw her in Aspen in late December and she was awesome. Just incredible with kids. Loving her being on snow.

Same thing with MS. "Such a delight and great role model." Based on........? People's direct inside knowledge? People who know her just might have a few more interesting views about Team S.

LV is far, far from perfect. No question. For those who have known her and seen a lot of her for 25+ years, that's obvious. But, I really can't take issue with her statement that she worked her butt off, given the realities. I can't take issue with her comments on the ski, though I might not have posted the picture on Twitter.

She's not in the same position of any other other female ski racer at the games, and yes she is no doubt very disappointed. Maybe I missed some of what the rest of you are so critical about. I've heard from a number of people there, and pretty damn close to her in proximity, that she's been great to everybody she meets. Incredibly supportive to her teammates {male and female}, very gracious and friendly with the other women. Heck, look at the blast she had at the opening ceremonies. Ohh, other big name alpine racers? Largely too important to be there. Maybe MS had to nap.

It was pointed out to me that the world expected her to win the DH, and likely the SG. This whole "thing" with the US Press, and NBC
naming clear and prohibitive favorites, virus the subtle change of saying that she is one of he top favorites expected to contend, is a big one. The questions being asked of her were in some cases pretty pointed, including ones that we were not shown. Same thing with MS after her SL. No doubt there are pople who think that both KV and MS choked in the combined. Won a silver and choked. Insane.

OK....."Why didn't you win?" I think she handled it pretty well. Producer into ear of reporter "Get at her grandfather......get some emotion and tears." I would bet that was going on.

I know too much about this sport, and about too many of the people. I love sports, but my wife and I are pretty tired of the Olympics. Even on some small details that NBC persists in getting wrong. Nothing that effects LV. But things that do affect other friends of ours. I'm very glad to not be there. Everybody who's there because of the skiing is just exhausted...fried. This was a lousy pick for alpine racing.

I think LV did pretty well. Guess others hold her to a higher standard. I recall hearing an Italian skier official presenting her with a medal and trophy and telling her that she would be the best ski racer in the world......when she was 12. Been a long road.

Her competitors like her. They pretty much couldn't stand Mancuso, and they all think that MS is a bit strange {though a to better and more mature these days in many ways.......just odd on race days and on the hill}. That's bigger acid test to me than what most of us think we know.

I'm not discussing any more about her in public. Can't. Let's say that my opinions differ from many others here, I guess. All good, I hope!

Exactly...there are NO perfect people in this world. LV has been a force of nature for over ten years. Ski racing ain't the NBA where it's basically not necessary to have the games. Just check the rosters and predict who will win and you will be right the VAST majority of the time. Sh%t happens.
 

scott43

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Hockey is NOT all we have - just see the medal standing.But I said I was glad to see this happen since this would kind of bring them back to the earth.They will need to work harder now for the next 20 years domination period. The other teams don't sleep, they work hard as well (as we saw last night)
Look at the curling.. Not a cake walk anymore..
 

Ohioskier

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@Muleski good comments putting things in perspective. I’m amazed with so many variables not related to athlete wind and tech related items and races coming down to tenths and hundredths of seconds we Americans say someone choked by finishing a close second to a fierce and tough competitor.

Maybe someone can answer me this one question. Don’t the competitors train year round just as hard and have phenomenal skiing abilities? I thought so but I guess not in American eyes.
 

eok

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I'm always kind of surprised at the expectations many people have of the US alpine teams.

The WC is a war. The Olympics is a single battle. In the WC, you can lose battles & still win the war. Not really the case in the Olympics. This Olympics went like many I've watched over the years, where WC leaders couldn't get the results they wanted. Just because a racer is crushing it on the WC circuit doesn't mean they'll make it so in the Olympics. Any athlete going into the Olympics expecting to win is setting themselves up for "the agony of defeat".

This time around the pressure on LV and MS was immense. The weird snow conditions and unusual courses definitely eroded their potential advantages over the field. And if you don't believe me, replay the men's slalom.

It seemed to me that too many of the top racers, men or women, were overthinking (or underthinking) their strategies. So many racers seemed to have problems being confident on the PyeongChang snow.

MS was just too stressed. Not appearing to enjoy herself. The SL snow & course setting were not in her wheelhouse. The SC slalom course seemed like faster snow, but the course was unusually short - a disadvantage for MS, who often hits the afterburners in the lower half of races. So the results were not surprising to me.

For LV, the DH was also outside her wheelhouse. The snow was slow & grabby (no injection). It surely wasn't a fast high risk course, where LV seems to usually have an edge. The course itself was actually rather tame. It appeared (to me) to be deliberately set to "level the playing field" to a good degree - which it did. LV appeared to be enjoying the whole Olympic experience thing. Glad to see that. Just goes to show how such a great ambassador/mentor she can be for the sport.

Lastly, I'll point out that all outdoor competitive sports ALWAYS have a high degree of unpredictability. It's because they are OUTDOORS - subject to all sorts of dynamic variables - expected and unforeseen. Mix in a diverse crowd of racers for one big race and, really, anything can happen and often does. This factor makes any alpine sport really really hard to win when you need to the most. That's why I've always been impressed by WC point leaders but not as much by Olympic medals.

So, like past Olympics, we have witnessed a number of unexpected results - and crushing pressure from relentless media BS. That's pretty normal for Olympic alpine events. Regardless, I still loved watching as much of it as I could (except the ice skating, UG!).
 

Muleski

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"Straight and Late" is an age old term. I doubt if anybody uses it other than to describe how NOT to do it to younger kids. Simlar to Bode speaking about "boot topping" where you leave NO room, and are literally taking SL gates right on your boot cuffs, inches form the hinge. I've seen kids think that trying to boot top every gate is fast.....it's not.

What I guess I was trying to illustrate, probably not that well, is that Bode has always been focused on{and I mean ALWAYS, since he was a kid} is skiing less distance than anybody. "Pinching off line". Again it's not easy. Much easier said than done. There are a lot of factors that come into play in trying to ski less line, and has he suggests spending more time in the fall line. Bode mentions a lot, that skiers are taking turns too deep, and finishing them well below the gate, then jamming them and throwing the skis across the fall line....kind of in desperation to get back on track. That's real slow, and at math level a couple of those will coast you a second or more. So out of it.

LIgety perfected perfect technique for the 35M skis. He also had GREAT skis built for him. So, he would ski further than somebody like Bode, but he would be in the fall line, he would pressure the ski evenly and get a lot of force and acceleration out of most every turn. He'd be making time in each turn direction. Much faster than the guys who were muscling their skis, stivoting and redirecting like crazy. That's what he had that year with the enormous winning margins. The others got smart with the skiing....but honestly just as much with the skis. Hirscher got better skis, as did others, and margins went down. Watch video of Hirscher in the first year of the 35M skim and it is ugly. It's one of the reasons why he "got bigger." Also was the source of a tin of tension with his ski company.

Now, with the 30M skis, Ted had no such advantage, and he's skiing pretty much the same way, and looking......slow. Most of the time. Has nothing to do with Korea. He hasn't adapted his skiing. Watch him, watch the top 15 in the world, particularly the younger guys, and he looks...old. Not effective with these course sets, and these skis. I presume we will see Ted retire at US Nationals.

It's VERY hard to judge speed, visually on TV. I found the TV placement to not be a great help. One example, in the DH, the first "break over" or bump/jump followed by that really bump transition left to right looked on TV to be fairly gentle and almost flat. I think it was one of the steepest sections of the course, and where they accelerated the fastest. Don't really look that way.

The steepest and most demanding sections on the GS hill didn't look like it in most TV shots. Everybody kind of looked the same. I think you could tell that some of the skiers were ripping based on how dynamic they were, and just how fast things were coming at them. Often at the bottom. You'd probably think, wow, this person is carrying some real heat.

Being on the hill is an entirely different perspective. You can really judge ad appreciate the speed.

Hope that's not confusing. I have a friend who's a long time top level college coach, and when watching kids, partuclarlu at the U16 and U19 ages, he'll often say "looks beautiful.....times real slow." Genreally they are too much across the hill, and in particular holding oto their turns much too long. "Overskiing" it. Generally this skiers look quite round with their line. Igety was an entirely differnt animal as he generated SO much energy and speed from his skis. Stand on the hill when he was training or racing and you could see it, and pretty much hear it and feel it.
 

Muleski

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It's degrees of ability, and degrees of work on snow and off the hill. And it's coachability and the willingness to learn, listen and evolve. To just get better, and better. No to be content with having your USST jacket, but to be boring to win on the WC.

I think everybody at that level has 90% of that. Some are incredibly athletic, but perhaps fell a bit short in the other areas. We always hear that Julia Mancuso was probably the most athletic female skier ever on the USST. I always hear Bode described as perhaps the best pure athlete to ever ski on the WC.

So, you have LV, who is honestly not super athletic. She essentially willed herself to be the best at her craft. Would never be out worked, would never give up, was absolutely fearless {come would describe it as just nuts}. She also was determined to be the strongest and the most fit she could be. That happened over time. When she was young, she was kidded for being chubby. I seriously don't think anybody spends her time in the gym with her trainers. Do most of the others spend a huge amount of time? "Plenty" of time, year round. Yeah, from what I observe, absolutely. Those who have the talent and minimize the training are maybe a very small handful.

Now, MS not only spends a huge amount of time in the gym, but she also logs more the on snow than anybody. Some people seem to burn out, or at least hit diminishing returns on snow. She thrives on it. Aside from the endless drills and directed free skiing, which she finds relaxing. As an example, you might have a coach who would plan on 6-8 really focused training runs. 10 might be much more that he'd planned. After that, the athlete might get tired, and be not skiing well.....no point in it. You hear stories of MS taking 15-18-20 training runs and actually skiing better on the the last two! That works for her {or did} and would not for others.

So, IME, they are all working hard, year round. An athlete saying that they are going to be in the gym with LV, or doubling their on snow volume is not going to necessarily help. Probably will beat them up. Depends entirely on the athlete.

Today, it's very popular to have at least one big block of time off snow. Might be a month, maybe six weeks. That's not the way it was 15 years ago. At that point, the USST guys were almost never OFF snow for more than 2-3 weeks, year round.

These people work hard. The athletes, coaches, support staff, techs. This is not easy. I think they love it, but its hard, hard work.[/USER]
 
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Ohioskier

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@Muleski good insight my point was just that the athletes that beat both Shiffrin and Vonn weren’t some scrubs that can’t ski. They are very good themselves and well trained. We lose sight that the other European nations work hard and have great skiers. We just only hear their names every 4 years.
 

Tom K.

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I'm another one that is very disappointed in LVs overally performance.

In addition to dealing with the challenges of skiing, fans, media, team mates, sponsors, and a sunsetting Olympic career, I expected her to walk on water.

She is, after all, from Minnesota! ;)
 

dustyfog

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"Straight and Late" is an age old term. I doubt if anybody uses it other than to describe how NOT to do it to younger kids. Simlar to Bode speaking about "boot topping" where you leave NO room, and are literally taking SL gates right on your boot cuffs, inches form the hinge. I've seen kids think that trying to boot top every gate is fast.....it's not.

What I guess I was trying to illustrate, probably not that well, is that Bode has always been focused on{and I mean ALWAYS, since he was a kid} is skiing less distance than anybody. "Pinching off line". Again it's not easy. Much easier said than done. There are a lot of factors that come into play in trying to ski less line, and has he suggests spending more time in the fall line. Bode mentions a lot, that skiers are taking turns too deep, and finishing them well below the gate, then jamming them and throwing the skis across the fall line....kind of in desperation to get back on track. That's real slow, and at math level a couple of those will coast you a second or more. So out of it.

LIgety perfected perfect technique for the 35M skis. He also had GREAT skis built for him. So, he would ski further than somebody like Bode, but he would be in the fall line, he would pressure the ski evenly and get a lot of force and acceleration out of most every turn. He'd be making time in each turn direction. Much faster than the guys who were muscling their skis, stivoting and redirecting like crazy. That's what he had that year with the enormous winning margins. The others got smart with the skiing....but honestly just as much with the skis. Hirscher got better skis, as did others, and margins went down. Watch video of Hirscher in the first year of the 35M skim and it is ugly. It's one of the reasons why he "got bigger." Also was the source of a tin of tension with his ski company.

Now, with the 30M skis, Ted had no such advantage, and he's skiing pretty much the same way, and looking......slow. Most of the time. Has nothing to do with Korea. He hasn't adapted his skiing. Watch him, watch the top 15 in the world, particularly the younger guys, and he looks...old. Not effective with these course sets, and these skis. I presume we will see Ted retire at US Nationals.

It's VERY hard to judge speed, visually on TV. I found the TV placement to not be a great help. One example, in the DH, the first "break over" or bump/jump followed by that really bump transition left to right looked on TV to be fairly gentle and almost flat. I think it was one of the steepest sections of the course, and where they accelerated the fastest. Don't really look that way.

The steepest and most demanding sections on the GS hill didn't look like it in most TV shots. Everybody kind of looked the same. I think you could tell that some of the skiers were ripping based on how dynamic they were, and just how fast things were coming at them. Often at the bottom. You'd probably think, wow, this person is carrying some real heat.

Being on the hill is an entirely different perspective. You can really judge ad appreciate the speed.

Hope that's not confusing. I have a friend who's a long time top level college coach, and when watching kids, partuclarlu at the U16 and U19 ages, he'll often say "looks beautiful.....times real slow." Genreally they are too much across the hill, and in particular holding oto their turns much too long. "Overskiing" it. Generally this skiers look quite round with their line. Igety was an entirely differnt animal as he generated SO much energy and speed from his skis. Stand on the hill when he was training or racing and you could see it, and pretty much hear it and feel it.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Insightful on all levels. "looks beautiful.....times real slow." definitely resonates.

And the details about staying in the fall line to "pinching off line" quite clear, guess it's all about getting the turn over with at or just above the gate while "pinching" that line, and not skidding ... hard to do most certainly.

Appreciate it.
 

Bogatyr

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The problem with MS is that she has the ability to smash the competition and wins by large margins any time on any snow given the technically very weak competitors.And yet....... she made her fans suffer a lot in PyeongChang. Rumours say she skied in the ‘ Salomon ‘ side of her Atomic boots that never worked for her on these Olympiques. Whatever the reason the problem with MS is that she skied pretty far from ...... herself.
 

fatbob

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Couple of those shootout goals were siiiiiick!

Just watched the replay before bed. Hadn't realised that it was a full OT period. Hard work.

Laydeez had game on those shootout draw and pokes rare to see that level in the NHL.
 

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