Skis for carving in powder

[ski otter 2]

* P.S. I use Marker Schizo bindings on all my fatter skis partly for such problems. (They have easy, almost instant, on-the-slope fore-aft binding adjustment.)

 

[Rod9301]

Boy, a lot in this thread.

First, for @karlo , the OP. It may or may not be the skis you're on, and/or their mount position.



A "pintail" just means the ski narrows at the tail, causing a bit of tail sink in powder, for purposes of control, ideally. And this is a great example of a ski that if mounted too far back would tend to sink your tail and porpoise up your tip!

"Porpoising" as you describe is not a problem I have. But, I have on occasion had something suspiciously similar to what you describe happen to me on particular ski(s), possibly close to too short for my height and weight (and style) in powder, particularly with bindings set at the wrong position(s) fore-aft. Usually, it's with a ski designed for great edgehold in little or no powder (stiff, etc.) that one has mounted back so as to give the feel/handling of a charger ski. (Some skis have factory recommended settings pretty far back, in part, for such a feel.) That far back setup may work for speed stability on groomers and such, but may leave you "backwards heavy" when the bottom falls out, in other words in deep powder.

Another example: for me, the Volkl V-Werks Katanas 184 set back a little bit over -1 cm..

I did this because at zero I was getting fore-aft instability in windblown drifts at that length, at my height & weight (5'10", ~150 lbs.) But, dang, the fronts of the skis would porpoise up (because the tails would sink) something fierce when the snow got deeper than, say, 8".
Moving the bindings forward just a half a centimeter or so solved that problem completely. At around -1/2 cm, these skis reached a "sweet spot," fortunately.* They stopped "porpoising" completely, and still held very stable, fore-aft: no stutter or stop when I hit good-sized drifts. (But in addition, the fine-tuning of this said to me that the longer 191 Katana might respond very well for me personally. And this year I've gotten a longer 191 pair to see.)

To me, it's supposed to be just intuitive and fun, almost instinctual, this powder skiing. And very forgiving. You get a feel for the ski and what it can and wants to do, and there you go. Those 184 Katanas are my current favorite skis, and favorite powder/crud skis also.

(Another thing about the skis being some of the problem at least: I want to try the current, improved DPS skis, Alchemists especially. But for me, I don't know about the older ones - the Pures and Hybrids. Not intuitive, for me. I can ski powder, but I'm at heart a finesse skier. For me, it really matters what ski I'm on. For, say, my old friend Rich, almost any ski can be made to do the dance incredibly. But not for me!)

I have the same ski and I minted it at+1 1/2. Works great.

 

[karlo]

pintail" just means the ski narrows at the tail, causing a bit of tail sink in powder, for purposes of control, ideally

Thank you so much for the description and the explanation. Googling pintail, I had come to the erroneous understanding that this was his another way of describing a twintip's tail.

Moving the bindings forward just a half a centimeter or so solved that problem completely. At around -1/2 cm, these skis reached a "sweet spot," fortunately.* They stopped "porpoising" completely

I have the same ski and I minted it at+1 1/2. Works great.

The ski I was on was a rental, frame bindings. No idea where my boot was relative to center. I could very well have been set to the back.

Re the Katana's, the season after that photo, I was on BMT 109's, which I understand is much the same but lighter construction, and that I purchased. Boot set at factory line. Much less porpoising. Still some though, particularly when hitting a drift. So, sounds like setting the bindings ever so slightly forward might solve that problem altogether. Unfortunately, the pin bindings can't be moved without re-mounting.

Here's a photo on the BMT's. About the same part of the turn in the last photo, but shot from behind me. Clearly though, no porpoising.

Despite not porpoising, I feel I can't "carve" this BMT ski. On hardpack or groomer, I can bring the ski under me and across and get on the other edge very early. When I try to do that with this ski, in powder, I feel like there's no support and I'm going to keel over. So, I end up doing the old-fashion weight and un-weight turns. This is a full rocker ski. Maybe I need camber for what I want to do? Just don't know.

Anyway, pretty clear to me now regarding porpoising. Avoid pintails, avoid having the boot set aft, avoid big shovel tips.

 

[karlo]

Oh wow, further to what I wrote just a moment ago about still porpoising when hitting a drift, here's a photo of it.

Maybe not exactly a drift, more of a rise. Couldn't blast through it and stay centered. Tips go up and I get set back.

 

[markojp]

Sometimes tips come out, sometimes not. Honestly it isnt something I think about for even a moment. See my avatar? Tip is out. Submarining on the other hand...

 

[slowrider]

Karlo if your getting set back when your tips surface it's not the skis. Like mark said, its not something that you should be concerned about. 1 ski surfacing and 1 is not.

 

[KingGrump]

Tips go up and I get set back.

When skiing bumps. You ski up a bump. The tips go up.
What happens? You get set back?
What do you do?

 

[markojp]

Strong suspicion of an ankle flexion problem, not the ski... or simply a weak core. Either way, both are easily addressed.

 

[James]

There's always the virtual bump in a turn. The steeper the hill and the more you turn across it, the bigger the bump. Speed makes it bigger also. To lessen it one makes shallower turns, skies less steep or goes slower.

It's slways going to be there to some extent. Sounds like some of what's happening on these steep powder runs is as soon as you feel this "bump" and start sinking, there's a "not again" thought and you sink back. Tips go up even more then and now you're in a hole.

Notice in the vid you linked the guy lifts his feet up sometimes to absorb this bump. This is some of what King Grump is asking you to think about.

 

[karlo]

I thought through these statements, and everything else that has been written, repeatedly. And what on its own didn't make sense, I had to figure out how to make sense of it.

Karlo if your getting set back when your tips surface it's not the skis

Sure feels like it's the skis.

When skiing bumps. You ski up a bump. The tips go up.
What happens? You get set back?
What do you do?

I don't get set back. I flex and extend. I'm right on top of my skis on the bump and on its backside, carving a turn early.

or simply a weak core

My core is not weak.

the guy lifts his feet up sometimes to absorb this bump. This is some of what King Grump is asking you to think about.

Thinking, thinking.

There's always the virtual bump in a turn.

Still thinking. Yes, it's a bump! So, what do I do skiing bumps? I flex, I "lift" my feet to absorb it. And, I keep a tight core! And, I don't get set back! So, I'm thinking, ski it like I'm skiing bumps, except these are bumps I am making, not bumps made by other skiers!

Then, I'm realizing my mindset. Fresh snow on a mogul field - nice easy skiing through bumps, still need to flex, extend, and keep core tight. Fresh snow on a groomer - nice easy skiing, not nearly as much flexing needed, not as much core. Deep powder - looks like the fresh snow on the groomer scenario. I'm not ready to flex into a bump. I'm loosy goosey with my core (weak core).

Answer, ski the powder like I'm going through a mogul field, with the benefit of me choosing where the mogul will be! The mental discontinuity will be, visually, there's no mogul there. So how to? I got to thinking, ski it like I'm skiing a mogul field in heavy snowfall and total white-out. Can't see the mogul. Feel them with the ski tips and with the feet, and flex. Go over a virtual bump and feel the "base" drop out from under me, extend.

So, yes, if I'm getting set back when the tips surface, it's not the skis. It's me.

I can do this.

 

[slowrider]

I like a guy that can think past his technique. Your going to the next level.

 

[Lauren]

Still thinking. Yes, it's a bump! So, what do I do skiing bumps? I flex, I "lift" my feet to absorb it. And, I keep a tight core! And, I don't get set back! So, I'm thinking, ski it like I'm skiing bumps, except these are bumps I am making, not bumps made by other skiers!

Then, I'm realizing my mindset. Fresh snow on a mogul field - nice easy skiing through bumps, still need to flex, extend, and keep core tight. Fresh snow on a groomer - nice easy skiing, not nearly as much flexing needed, not as much core. Deep powder - looks like the fresh snow on the groomer scenario. I'm not ready to flex into a bump. I'm loosy goosey with my core (weak core).

Answer, ski the powder like I'm going through a mogul field, with the benefit of me choosing where the mogul will be! The mental discontinuity will be, visually, there's no mogul there. So how to? I got to thinking, ski it like I'm skiing a mogul field in heavy snowfall and total white-out. Can't see the mogul. Feel them with the ski tips and with the feet, and flex. Go over a virtual bump and feel the "base" drop out from under me, extend.

So, yes, if I'm getting set back when the tips surface, it's not the skis. It's me.

I can do this.

This whole train of thought is awesome.

I recall the first time I was skiing powder "correctly" and realized it's the same motion as skiing bumps...it was amazing. Still working on said technique...but knowing is half the battle, right?

 

[KingGrump]

3D snow.
3D terrain.
Visibility ???

 

[markojp]

Without video, there really isn't any unspooling of MA issues. One can stil 'flex' to release and not effectively maintain cuff contact, but there's no way to know from one still pict.

 

[karlo]

knowing is half the battle,

That and visualizing. I did a bit of that today.

One can stil 'flex' to release and not effectively maintain cuff contact

If I ski it like I ski bumps, whether short turns or GS turns, there will be a lot of pressure on the cuff. For turn-at-each bump in a mogul field, I tend to tuck my feet under to get an early turn with tip engagement. Visualizing that, I'm wondering if, in powder, I'll run into a problem with aforementioned submarining. Then, I will either somersault, or the skis will pop up and "breach" like a whale. I'm thinking I may be better off doing the GS-through-moguls turns, keeping a high angulation, with the skis well outside of me, not under me. Guess I'll have to play with it.

Anyone have thoughts on skis that will stay either at near surface or at a constant depth? Is there such a thing? Or, such a way to ski deep powder? Maybe just narrower skis and some camber, nevermind having so much float?

 

[DanoT]

Karlo, you are over thinking things and besides it is not the arrow it is the Indian, so whatever ski you are on in powder you need to adjust your body position so your weight is evenly centred over the centre of your skis.

If your skis start to dive, then don't blame the ski; instead pull the tip up toward the surface. If you start to lean too far back over the tails, then push your body forward toward the tips. If one ski splits off or starts to dive, then react by pulling your legs together.

And if all else fails...just take up water skiing instead.

 

[karlo]

If your skis start to dive, then don't blame the ski; instead pull the tip up

How does one do that? My instinct is to lean back, but that causes other problems.

BTW, I agree, am over thinking it

 

[DanoT]

How does one do that? My instinct is to lean back, but that causes other problems.

BTW, I agree, am over thinking it

Leaning back is OK as a corrective measure, just don't lean back too much or too long, so as soon as the ski starts to rise, then get your weight forward and centred over the skis. Be fluid and reactive but don't over react or over compensate.

 

[markojp]

FWIW, having skied a bunch of different skis in powder, some 'powder' skis, many not, I find that generally we make small changes to adapt to the characteristics of a particular ski. The only ski that really stands about as having a propensity to dive was the Rossi E-98, though it wasn't awful. The binding mount line was quite far forward. If it had been that big an issue, I'd have moved it aft a bit. Ski width determines ski tactics more than anything else, but doesn't prevent one from skiing powder. Was sort of thinking about one of the days at the gathering las season when it would have been nice to have something 100-105'ish, but 88 was what was brung, so that's what was wrung.

I've never skied a 'powder' ski that specifically 'porpoised'. As mentioned before, that has a whole lot more to do with the density of the snow on a given day and how fast the conditions allow one to ski. A couple seasons back, I was able to get 6 pretty incredible laps on chair 6 at Crystal Mountain on the 118's that usually stay in the closet. It'd been closed for a mechanical in the morning. It was a weekday later in the season, and I got second chair at 1pm on a day when many probably already left or had gone to another part of the mountain figuring the loft was down for the day. It wasn't super deep, but everything was very smooth under the snow sirface so super-g turns were possible. I was certainly more 'on' than 'in', but the sensation of floating/flying was the same... just big arc-y turns following the contours of the pitch... absolutley awesome skiing! I've been on the same skis in deeper snow at different speeds (slower) where there was certainly porpoising. No big deal... Just manage pressure as appropriate and add more retraction and pulling the feel back. It's pretty tough getting a ski over 110-115 to submarine in much of anything. Not impossible in truly awful condtions, but generally doesn't happen.

Skis with a bunch of side cut and a more 'hammerhead' tip shape can be 'interesting' i.e., 'hooky', and that combined with a narrow waist can make things pretty sub-optimal. I'm never going to claim a Head Titan is a great choice on a powder day, but the 'wrong' ski certainly keeps you honest and in your game face in practice. Years ago I had a pair of K2 Super Stinx for a teley mounted piste ski. A load of fun, but aways a challenging powder ski for the reasons mentioned above on the rare occasion that they were out on a powder day. Fortunately there's usually something else in the car to swap out. But whatever... I guess the message is yes, I'm also on the 'don't overthink things' bandwagon. If a particular ski likes to do a particular thing, go with it.

 

[tromano]

How does one do that? My instinct is to lean back, but that causes other problems.

BTW, I agree, am over thinking it