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Skiing Risk Management
- Thread starter Mendieta
- Start date
Thread Starter
TS
Yes, I think that's one of the biggies. And it popped up all over the place, in this thread, so far. Limits also change as you progress. @Chris Walker talked about racers. They don't have the typical backseat fall ACL injury that a newbie would, but they ski AT their limit. Their physical conditioning is top notch, which tends to reduce likelihood of injuries. They could ski double blacks all day everyday without breaking a sweat. But they race at superhuman speeds and go at the limit of what's humanely possible with the current technology. So they get knee and other injuries rather often (as other competitive sports people do). I am sure @Muleski could illuminate us here.
So, here is a question: crashing is, IMHO, an indication that you are skiing close to your limit. A good friend of mine tries to have a crash every 6 ski days or so average. Otherwise, he feels like he's not pushing his limits.
Any thoughts of that? Should I add a poll to this thread? What's the ideal crash rate?
Zero. However, since there are people involved, reality is much different. If I'm just skiing, I don't push myself hard enough any more to get in any kind of big trouble. I could go days and days without falling. However, since I normally spend a significant part of my day doing the old school free-dogger whirly-twirly thing, I usually splat once or twice each ski day.
Great idea!
Knowledge and preparation keep you out of trouble!
When I got into motorcycles, I studied everything about them. There are (pretty old, but detailed) statistics about not only accident causes but common injuries (the Hurt report) and I worked to develop solid habits, based directly on those statistics, to improve my odds. I've read every good book about riding, took a few courses, including racing. One realization was that the best defensive strategy is to be assertive and even slightly aggressive.
Same with skiing. On top of that, getting into race coaching, one learns a lot about and there's a lot of focus on safety, since it's easy to put racers in danger... you learn to play the statistics game, to improve their odds. Pay attention to the crowds, the runs, snow conditions, warm up, progressions etc. A lot of that becomes second nature and you learn a lot of "tricks" while working with other coaches.
Didn't work so well with my moto-enduro racing... nothing major, but I have a lengthy record at the local hospital... it was too much fun to keep it safe, in the beginning! Eventually got fast enough and found the right equipment (light fast bike) to keep me out of trouble while still keeping the smile big enough.
The moral is... when we push it, it is inevitable. All we can do is the play the numbers game and smartly improve your odds.
Keep it safe.
Knowledge and preparation keep you out of trouble!
When I got into motorcycles, I studied everything about them. There are (pretty old, but detailed) statistics about not only accident causes but common injuries (the Hurt report) and I worked to develop solid habits, based directly on those statistics, to improve my odds. I've read every good book about riding, took a few courses, including racing. One realization was that the best defensive strategy is to be assertive and even slightly aggressive.
Same with skiing. On top of that, getting into race coaching, one learns a lot about and there's a lot of focus on safety, since it's easy to put racers in danger... you learn to play the statistics game, to improve their odds. Pay attention to the crowds, the runs, snow conditions, warm up, progressions etc. A lot of that becomes second nature and you learn a lot of "tricks" while working with other coaches.
Didn't work so well with my moto-enduro racing... nothing major, but I have a lengthy record at the local hospital... it was too much fun to keep it safe, in the beginning! Eventually got fast enough and found the right equipment (light fast bike) to keep me out of trouble while still keeping the smile big enough.
The moral is... when we push it, it is inevitable. All we can do is the play the numbers game and smartly improve your odds.
Keep it safe.
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I don't know if zero is exactly the ideal crash rate for skiing. Someone I know had the same ACL reconstruction I did, several years ago. She says she knows she hasn't recovered mentally because she hasn't fallen, at all, since then.
As @razie said, risk is inevitable when you push. Sometimes you're going to fall. Not all falls are catastrophic. Most aren't even that painful. @Tricia can tell you that the first thing I did when I fell is giggle, before the pain hit. Giggling is my usual response to a fall - which tells you how often it's been bad news to me. I hope I can get back to that.
Motorcycle, different story. Much higher consequences to life and limb, not to mention expensive cosmetic damage every time you lay it down. We all know people who had *one* crash on a motorcycle and then sold the bike, I think. It got too real.
As @razie said, risk is inevitable when you push. Sometimes you're going to fall. Not all falls are catastrophic. Most aren't even that painful. @Tricia can tell you that the first thing I did when I fell is giggle, before the pain hit. Giggling is my usual response to a fall - which tells you how often it's been bad news to me. I hope I can get back to that.
Motorcycle, different story. Much higher consequences to life and limb, not to mention expensive cosmetic damage every time you lay it down. We all know people who had *one* crash on a motorcycle and then sold the bike, I think. It got too real.
I'm good for 3-4 crashes a year, one usually worthy of garage sale status. Caught up with me last spring and have some LCL and meniscus issues that still may need work. We'll see. Will be starting the season in a brace.
Totally, on all counts!
To improve (faster?), you need to work at the limit of ability and of course some crashes are unavoidable. Managing your odds/risk though can mitigate the consequences of those crashes. Being smartly crazy is important for development. I find that I crash a lot less in recent years. It may be that I discovered patience
or got smarter?. Or my brain figured the rest of the body heals slower...One moto crash on the road will likely make me hang it up or at least radically change my riding. Even more, there is a nugget of wisdom that I abide by, it says that the first time you have a hesitation about going on a ride, it's time.
My riding is smartly crazy as in I take risks, but they're calculated and not on the margin. That was my point on "knowledge and preparation" as without those two, you cannot take "calculated risks". If you don't know what you're doing, if you can't foresee at least roughly what the result of this or that may be, your risks are not calculated.
At the same time, the simple notion of "taking risks" comes together with the law of big numbers to guarantee a crash...
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This rings true from my experience. Many times I'll quit skiing for the day when I start feeling that fatigue. @Philpug often says, "You don't want your last run to be your last run"
As for the people who are on terrain that they're not familiar with, which is a part of it, but also I see an issue with people over-terraining themselves.
Skiers who are skiing with a group and don't want to admit that they probably shouldn't ski an area that the group is skiing, or they get caught up in the moment and are convinced that they're okay with terrain that they shouldn't be on.
On another point - One of the things I learned at a Next Level Ski Camp was forecasting your run by paying attention to several things while on the chair lift.
- Which was is the wind blowing?
- How strong is the wind?
- What slope is facing the sun?
- Is the sun making things shiny or slushy?
- Where are there no tracks(sometimes for a good reason)?
- If you're planning on skiing a chute, are there rocks in the path that you may not see from the top?
- If you're planning to take a jump, what does the landing look like?
I have to answer this with well...Duh!
This is a good point that doesn't happen every day but could happen and is scary.
Thanks for pointing it out.
........ also .........Never blindly follow the crowd. Know the terrain or at least the sensitivity of the people you're skiing w/. I've learned that when I ski w/ a diverse group, I always undersell my skill set, endeavor to help those that are struggling, and NEVER tap my "Reserve Energy" in case someone ends up in trouble and needs serious help......
Was w/ a crew out at Alta and the local guide was interested in impressing one of our group who is a well known Mag/Video guy. I deduced, WAAAY too much testosterone in this guide! I saw where this guide was taking the group and was not impressed w/ his lack of sensitivity as to the overall skill set of our diverse group, and we were all good, solid skiers. Tough conditions to boot!
After our first hike, I grabbed my best friend and bailed to the bar. Hours later when the rest of the group found us at the bar hanging and enjoying the sun, they told us the horror story of the guide "Cliffing" them out to where they actually had to climb up and out of some ravine. Torn clothing, bruised egos, but thank God no injuries. They were panicked tired but had been intent on following the group rather than "wasting the day" at the bar w/ us. They wished they had bailed like I did. I toasted to them and said I'm a Poser w/ nothing to prove...... always Advanced Intermediate here and proud!!!.......... now let me get back to chatting up this really cute nurse I've met from Maine! LOL
Was w/ a crew out at Alta and the local guide was interested in impressing one of our group who is a well known Mag/Video guy. I deduced, WAAAY too much testosterone in this guide! I saw where this guide was taking the group and was not impressed w/ his lack of sensitivity as to the overall skill set of our diverse group, and we were all good, solid skiers. Tough conditions to boot!
After our first hike, I grabbed my best friend and bailed to the bar. Hours later when the rest of the group found us at the bar hanging and enjoying the sun, they told us the horror story of the guide "Cliffing" them out to where they actually had to climb up and out of some ravine. Torn clothing, bruised egos, but thank God no injuries. They were panicked tired but had been intent on following the group rather than "wasting the day" at the bar w/ us. They wished they had bailed like I did. I toasted to them and said I'm a Poser w/ nothing to prove...... always Advanced Intermediate here and proud!!!.......... now let me get back to chatting up this really cute nurse I've met from Maine! LOL
Falls per season wise, about two per season. Usually some kind of distraction on something fairly benign. Usually hurts like hell too.
Potentially season ending/major injury/death type of falls – two in the last eight years. Not much happened physically as result. A couple of bruised ribs and a torn jacket sleeve in one fall. The other fall resulted in a very short film of my life being played in high speed. Definitely not Oscar worthy. Thankfully, didn’t catch the end of the flick. Psychologically, they made me dial it back a few clicks away from my personal physical limit in terrain of consequences. Very similar to razie’s older/patience/smarter routine.
My take on personal limits are if you are racing, then push it. If you are free skiing then who are the competitors present that requires you to push your limit?
Over the years I have move from getting my thrills on the adrenaline rush of pushing my limits to enjoying the physical sensations skiing generates. The rush from raw straight line speed is nice. With time, I have learned to also appreciate other subtle sensations while skiing. Sensations like the feel of skis on snow, acceleration (both positive and negative), G forces, weightlessness, time dilation, serenity and graceful movements.
For me, skiing has evolved from a competitive sport, whether real or imaginary against another skier, nature or myself, to a dance. A dance with gravity, Mother Nature and Father Time.
Potentially season ending/major injury/death type of falls – two in the last eight years. Not much happened physically as result. A couple of bruised ribs and a torn jacket sleeve in one fall. The other fall resulted in a very short film of my life being played in high speed. Definitely not Oscar worthy. Thankfully, didn’t catch the end of the flick. Psychologically, they made me dial it back a few clicks away from my personal physical limit in terrain of consequences. Very similar to razie’s older/patience/smarter routine.
My take on personal limits are if you are racing, then push it. If you are free skiing then who are the competitors present that requires you to push your limit?
Over the years I have move from getting my thrills on the adrenaline rush of pushing my limits to enjoying the physical sensations skiing generates. The rush from raw straight line speed is nice. With time, I have learned to also appreciate other subtle sensations while skiing. Sensations like the feel of skis on snow, acceleration (both positive and negative), G forces, weightlessness, time dilation, serenity and graceful movements.
For me, skiing has evolved from a competitive sport, whether real or imaginary against another skier, nature or myself, to a dance. A dance with gravity, Mother Nature and Father Time.
Pushing it is not just going faster.
My favorite is skiing steep couloirs.
I mitigate the risks by knowing the conditions in the couloir, either climbing it or observing similar exposure slopes.
I try to ski then in good conditions, powder or softened corn.
I look carefully at avie conditions, perhaps dig a pit to confirm.
The big risk is falling, and that's a big no, depending on conditions.
So I ski them conservatively, at perhaps 50% of my ability, sometimes stopping after every turn.
You might guess this is mostly in the backcountry, as there are not that many steep, long couloirs in bounds.
I had two falls in such conditions in the past 18 years, one with a stop after a few feet, second after 500+ feet of tumbling backwards, with surgeon bills.
When I ski in the resort, I push it a lot more, so I may fall a few times a year.
You can get hurt in either case, but you won't die in a resort, so I'm ok to push my limits.
My favorite is skiing steep couloirs.
I mitigate the risks by knowing the conditions in the couloir, either climbing it or observing similar exposure slopes.
I try to ski then in good conditions, powder or softened corn.
I look carefully at avie conditions, perhaps dig a pit to confirm.
The big risk is falling, and that's a big no, depending on conditions.
So I ski them conservatively, at perhaps 50% of my ability, sometimes stopping after every turn.
You might guess this is mostly in the backcountry, as there are not that many steep, long couloirs in bounds.
I had two falls in such conditions in the past 18 years, one with a stop after a few feet, second after 500+ feet of tumbling backwards, with surgeon bills.
When I ski in the resort, I push it a lot more, so I may fall a few times a year.
You can get hurt in either case, but you won't die in a resort, so I'm ok to push my limits.
Oh, you can die in a resort.
Thread Starter
TS
That makes sense, intuitively. But I wonder if you should work at the limit, or a bit under it. You can probably push the envelop working close to your current limits.
Racing is different: during a competitions you see racers go AT the limit. And boy, is it scary!
Thread Starter
TS
Yes. In the stats that I shared in the OP, and some of the articles I found while researching around, it appears that a lot of the deaths happen on blue runs, at high speeds, where the skier loses control and hits a tree or a lift tower.
Thread Starter
TS
Exactly. I just mentioned this without realizing you said it a couple posts earlier. Well, for someone like me in the learning phase, there is a need/desire to get better. But I find that, like you mentioned in your post, a crash erodes my confidence. So, there is a compromise between staying close to the limit to improve, but far enough that I don't dial back every day.
Thread Starter
TS
Yes! As I was reading your post, I couldn't help getting this terrifying but well researched special by the NYT in my mind:
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunnel-creek
It's hard to go through, but it's a great read. One of our Puggers (I don't remember who, sorry) recommended it in another thread. But the important thing is that many in the group felt something was wrong. Something seemed ominous. But nobody wanted to speak up and ruin the day for the others.. So, some people actually separated from the group and avoided the avalanche. some got lucky through it, and dear Lord I'm not being judgmental. I would have probably stayed with my mouth shut and a macho grin. And, clearly, hindsight is 20/20. But there are two clear points:
- Trust you gut. Feels Ominous? Move on. You want to ski another day.
- Don't be afraid of speaking up, if skiing in a group
A good read.....classic mistakes.... and yes they needed to go w/ their gut and have confidence in their personal assessment as they were all pretty much "Experts". A buddy and I had to dig a friend out after one of those "Classic" mistakes........ unforgettable, NOT fun experience........ forget "yellow" snow, once you see dark red snow.......... you never forget it........... EVER......... your endorphins impart this ethereal texture to the entire scene......... you try desperately to see through the haze and continue to act to save lives....you have super human strength...... do amazing things to get to the victim.... things you don't remember.......... it's like being in a dream.............you don't even notice small things like your pole wrapping tightly around your wrist cutting off circulation while you dig like a frantic honey badger............
I just remember dreaming......"Why is my hand going numb?"......... right up until you feel the grasp of the entombed victim as they desperately grab at you w/ the one hand that you've freed.........they are at the edge of life and death and they know it.....you practically have to beat them into submission to calm them down so you can continue your dream and dig........... dig .......keep digging.......for all you're worth.......... no time to breathe...... just dig...........he later told me he was remembering his four kids when he was finally able to grab my hand...............I think I almost broke his arm trying to release his grip...........no worries, we are all bonded "Brothers" for life now..............
During the short hike into that area I just remember my buddy Chris saying ........ "Bad Juju....... something Bad always happens in this area........ be careful Mark and stay close to me".....I promptly remembered I was by far the weakest skier in this amazing group of expert level skiers.................... then we proceeded in........
I just remember dreaming......"Why is my hand going numb?"......... right up until you feel the grasp of the entombed victim as they desperately grab at you w/ the one hand that you've freed.........they are at the edge of life and death and they know it.....you practically have to beat them into submission to calm them down so you can continue your dream and dig........... dig .......keep digging.......for all you're worth.......... no time to breathe...... just dig...........he later told me he was remembering his four kids when he was finally able to grab my hand...............I think I almost broke his arm trying to release his grip...........no worries, we are all bonded "Brothers" for life now..............
During the short hike into that area I just remember my buddy Chris saying ........ "Bad Juju....... something Bad always happens in this area........ be careful Mark and stay close to me".....I promptly remembered I was by far the weakest skier in this amazing group of expert level skiers.................... then we proceeded in........
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It goes both ways. I know I have a reputation of stretching some of the attendees during the gatherings. But that is with their tacit approval. That is why they are in my old and slow group. Otherwise, they always have the option of joining the hard charging group.
However, what is not known is that on occasions we also have talks with skiers in efforts to persuade them to move to another group that is more suitable to their ability level.
