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hbear

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For context, I prepped 4 new skis this weekend. After the usual top sheet bevelling, tip and tail shaping, sidewalk prep, etc. It took me less than 20mins to rip new edges from the factory set for all 4 pairs. (Setting new angles, and bringing the edge up to race quality tune....they are literally WC race ready, including a little gummy and ceramic stone work). I was also taking my time as I was getting used to the grinder.

During the year, it’s likely less than a few mins per pair to bring everything back to full race quality finish. (For the race skis likely 2 passes down each edge and it’s back to perfect).

Not only is the time savings there, but the finish quality is nothing short of amazing. Can I get there with hand tools (possibly close enough) but certainly the time requirement is significantly higher.
 

hbear

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I wouldn’t hesitate on the Razr Tune. Looks like a great machine. I ponied up for the big gun as I just knew too many that have had great success with it and feel I’ll have ample access to both repair and grinding media down the road given the proliferation of the unit at the higher ski levels. I also liked having stainless steel guides and it being raised off the ski a bit more making it easy to tune the tips and tails as well. (+ ability to calibrate the angle both to an absolute number but also to my hand bevel)

Overkill for my needs but also have full confidence I’m not going to burn it out either
 

RuleMiHa

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There aren't enough threads on Side Edge Grinders so I figure I should start another one :)

What I'm trying to unsurfaced is which one is "worth it" to me? What's the Return on Investment (ROI)?

I've read everything (I think) posted here. Watched many, many, many youtube videos and visited all the Manufacture's sites. The high end one's are out of my budget(Tri One, Carrot, Protek, Snowglide etc. I think I got that right). For me, it is coming down to the Razor Tune and Swix Evo.

From my research I've come to the conclusion that what I want is the Razor Tune. It appears to be made of higher quality and I like the idea that the weight sits on the base of the ski. What I like about the Swix Evo is I have access to one at a significant discount to include replacement/spare discs. This weighs in as maintaining it can end up being much cheaper, even if things don't last as long.

My needs aren't as stringent as some. I don't race Masters though I do race beer league. And of course there is all the coaching I do here in NH so I do want and appreciate a sharp ski. I have almost every tool you can think of to take care of skis. Some I can even use correctly :(, so I already have what I need to set and maintain my edges. I also have too many pairs of skis of my own and I take care of some family members as well. It really comes down to time.

What I'm looking for is to be able to sharpen my skis and maintain the sharpness, in as little time as possible. I would like to get them as sharp as when I tune by hand. I lack the ability to say "good enough", when I tune by hand, it takes me a very long time. Too long and many folks tell me how they have all their skis done in the time it takes me to do one pair. I work in manufacturing an have looked at process improvements and ways to shorten the time, but what I won't do is skip a step. I probably don't need to do so many steps but the routine is set and I feel like I cheat when I don't (don't judge).

Like in manufacturing, one of the ways we look to shorten the time is a "step improvement". If a process takes a certain amount of time, we look to see if there is a machine that can do it at least as good (preferably better) in less time, but there has to be an ROI. $1M for new equipment to save $200K isn't worth it. $1M to save $1.1M is.

For me, I see the time saved by the RT or SE is worth it and am trying to see which one is the better investment (higher ROI).

So...
Is the extra money I would have to spend on the RT worth it if they both get the skis just as sharp and both take about the same amount of time?

Thanks,
Ken

Maybe you would benefit from setting up a reward system for yourself (after doing x number of things you don't enjoy doing but still have to/should do, you can reward yourself with a gadget upgrade). That way occasional splurges won't guilt you out but you still get to enjoy getting exactly what you want.

I will suggest that you get the Razor Tune, because if you cave and get the budget model and it doesn't really meet your needs, you will be seriously annoyed, and because you paid for it you won't be able to justify buying the Razor Tune later. (There's your ROI; less annoyance, lower blood pressure, lower risk of heart attack and stroke. Win/Win all around!)

Really--find a way to justify, reward, or scrimp on something else, or wait and save, and get what you want because very few things are as frustrating as dealing with setbacks due to an item you spent money on but wasn't exactly what you wanted.
 
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L&AirC

L&AirC

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Maybe you would benefit from setting up a reward system for yourself (after doing x number of things you don't enjoy doing but still have to/should do, you can reward yourself with a gadget upgrade). That way occasional splurges won't guilt you out but you still get to enjoy getting exactly what you want.

I will suggest that you get the Razor Tune, because if you cave and get the budget model and it doesn't really meet your needs, you will be seriously annoyed, and because you paid for it you won't be able to justify buying the Razor Tune later. (There's your ROI; less annoyance, lower blood pressure, lower risk of heart attack and stroke. Win/Win all around!)

Really--find a way to justify, reward, or scrimp on something else, or wait and save, and get what you want because very few things are as frustrating as dealing with setbacks due to an item you spent money on but wasn't exactly what you wanted.

My rule of thumb when it comes to gear and equipment (not just skiing) is to figure out which one I need and then get the next model up. I like good gear and struggle with poorly made equipment. I'm also a believer in buying well made things so I don't have to buy them repeatedly. I'm not really sure why I was doubting myself this time.

Razor Tune it is.
 
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L&AirC

L&AirC

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Now I just have to wait for it to arrive. The timing should work out well as I just put three pairs of skis in the local race shop to get a fresh grind with emphasis on flat. The skis should be done just after the RT arrives so I'll be able to practice on a couple older pairs I have hanging around that are in decent shape.
 

jzmtl

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You could mount the router upside down through a table and just run the ski along the bit with a fence set to give a perfect 3 degree bevel every time. I know I saw a world cup tuning room video once where it looked like they were using a 1/2" router by hand too.. It was an inverse bit so it ran with the base of the router flat on the base of the ski. I would agree trying to run it on the edge of the ski with the ski on its side would be a disaster. @Primoz might be able to explain what I thought I saw..

Anyway, something like this with a grinder bit instead of a cutting bit would be cool..

Still what bit would you use though? I've never seen any abrasive bit made for a router.

Along the router/trimmer line of thinking. Edge Tune Pro uses a Dremel tool, a commercially available grinding bit and a spec guide to accomplish that goal.
It's a bit crude. The set up does not appeal to me. In particular the small diameter of the grinding bit. Also I am not comfortable with the run out of a Dremal tool under load.

I have this one, the load is axial so runout doesn't matter much, result is decent enough for my purpose and frees me from manual stoning. It's more of a maintainer than a sharpener though, the included stone is very fine and barely removes any metal, and repeated grinding heats up the stone fast.
 

crgildart

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Still what bit would you use though? I've never seen any abrasive bit made for a router.

.

I think this might be what I saw in the world cup tuning room video.. It wasn't a video about tuning. It was a video about a ski team and showed some tech using something like this in the background. I assumed it was a router with some modifications.. I also assumed there would be bits available for specific bevel angles.

carrot_by_comax_edge_sharpener_1.jpg


Carrot Ski Edge Sharpener
 

KingGrump

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The Carrot also uses a diamond cup on the business end. The plastic tube and associated elbow appears to be for vacuum/dust control purposes.

Carrot by Comax ceramic ski edges sharpener

BTW, please check the RPM limits on grinding points before using them on router/trimmers. Big variance in operating RPMs between those machines.
 

crgildart

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The Carrot also uses a diamond cup on the business end. The plastic tube and associated elbow appears to be for vacuum/dust control purposes.

Carrot by Comax ceramic ski edges sharpener

BTW, please check the RPM limits on grinding points before using them on router/trimmers. Big variance in operating RPMs between those machines.
I've cut and beveled a lot of wood and formica with just about every kind of router, but never tried to use one to grind steel. I can imagine the potential for breakers to flip, motors to burn etc. Would definitely be an experiment to try with an old, disposable tool and especially a trashed, not skiable ski..
 

KingGrump

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I've cut and beveled a lot of wood and formica with just about every kind of router, but never tried to use one to grind steel. I can imagine the potential for breakers to flip, motors to burn etc. Would definitely be an experiment to try with an old, disposable tool and especially a trashed, not skiable ski..

My primary concern is with operator safety rather than that of the equipment used. 1/4" shaft mounted points usually have a upper RPM limit of 15/16K. Most routers normally operate in the 25K range. Some large routers can go as low as 10K.

I have never seen a mounted point come apart at 25K RPM. But I can definitely imagine the damage it can cause. Especially with the operator's hands nearby.
I have done a lot of jury rigging stuff in my years in construction. This definitely will not be one of them.
 
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L&AirC

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I thought I should circle back.

Wow! Very impressive. Everything seems to have been done right. It was shipped well packaged. Comes with a travel/storage case, that is also well made. The instructions are easy to read and to follow with clear color pictures (IKEA - take note). As has been mentioned, the Razor Tune itself is well made and feels like a tool and not a toy.

Changing the grinding wheels is a breeze and I would also say the learning curve to use it is less than learning to file edges. The only part that uses up more brain space is when you get to the tip or tail. This is because the two guide wheels need to travel along the ski edge to keep it aligned but when you get to the end, one wheel loses the edge. I don't think it is a big deal and is just a matter of trying a couple things. I haven't done much more than play with it some to get the feel.

I have some old skis that I keep for learning new techniques so I grabbed an old pair of Race Tigers that are flat but the base has run out of PTex in a spot or two. From the time I opened the box, read the directions (I had already watched the videos a few times), set it up, made a couple practice runs with it off, to the time my crappy skis had a WC edge with all three wheels, was about 25 minutes.

I'm hoping to do a full review this weekend but wanted to get something out there in case anyone else is on the fence. I see this to someone that does a lot of tuning like the cell phones 20 years ago. Everyone (me included) said they didn't need one and they were a waste of money until they got one and now they can't live without one.

I fully expect to be able to sharpen one pair of skis including pulling back the side wall and setting the edge in less than 5 minutes and maintaining the edge through the season in less than 2 minutes.

Very happy with this so far.

Ken
 

Polo

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My 2 cents.

For the recreational skier that only tunes their own or maybe the families skis a couple times per season, side edge grinders may not be all the beneficial or cost effective. But, if you are tuning multiple sets of race skis on a weekly basis you will definitely appreciate one of these types of tools and they will quickly become your new best friend.
 

silverback

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Assuming one had the budget for the snowglide, is it really any better than the razor-tune?
 

Polo

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Assuming one had the budget for the snowglide, is it really any better than the razor-tune?

The Snow Glide for a long time has kind of been considered the "gold standard" to which others are compared and many of your better shops still use them. Remember, depending on which model we are talking about the Snow Glide does both side edge and base bevels.

In a shop setting you'll want the Snow Glide but at the consumer/home tuner level, it's a lot of extra cost that really isn't needed because there are multiple different power edge tools that'll get the job done for a lot less of an investment.
 

smoothrides

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Assuming one had the budget for the snowglide, is it really any better than the razor-tune?

Assuming you're looking at the AFL for side edge grinding, the snowglide is adjustable in hundredths of a degree. There are numerous benefits to this adjustment when you're trying to work efficiently. If you don't need that level of adjustability and you're only maintaining a couple pairs of skis I don't think it's necessary to use a snowglide.
 
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hbear

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Adjustability aside, the ability to calibrate the machine is very nice as well (although a bit of a pain but not bad). I can calibrate directly to my fixed bevel guide, where as the other machines (protek being the exemption) cannot so your diamond stones may be being used at a different angle than your grinder (may or may not be a deal breaker)

The bigger part is the quality of machine, it certainly is built more robust than cheaper alternatives (protek looks to be the only exception but far from “cheap”). The stainless steel guide rails is much nicer and also sits the grinder up higher off the base making tips and tails no problem. No chance of those rails getting damaged (unlike the plastic for the razr tune) and if they do they are easily replaced.

Even the construction between the AFC and AFL are quite different as well. Same motor but different build quality.

The other consideration is that given the prolific use on the WC, the grinding media and continued machine support will be around for the foreseeable future. I know all the other companies plan to be in business a long time too but what if they aren’t and how do you get new grinding media or get the machine fixed down the road?

The big picture is there is no wrong machine, they all function, but like most things you do pay for extra precision, accuracy and durability. (Like most tools). Quality of finish will be determined by grinding media quality, pressure of media on the ski edge and how quickly the motor spins.

I’m perfectly happy with the snow glide but don’t think I’d be unhappy with either the protek (was going to buy this if I didn’t get the snow glide) or the razr tune (looks pretty good, decent price but ultimately I went for the big gun based on the above, knowing many with direct experience using the machine, and the buy the tool once theory).
 
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L&AirC

L&AirC

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I would have loved to get the Snowglide but my manufacturing head wouldn't allow it. There is also the fact that divorce lawyers aren't cheap.

My math couldn't justify the extra cost to cover the need since this is for personal use. If I was single and didn't have a daughter in college, I would have still struggled to justify it for my needs, but I would have bought it anyways because I like having really good tools and I can be a little reckless with money when not supervised by an adult woman (the first 50 years of childhood are difficult for men).

I will also say, that for the features the RT offers and the quality, it would be hard to beat the price.

This is kind of like comparing two well made cars. Both get you to where you're going but one has more features and a more comfortable ride. If price isn't a concern, get the one you're going to be happiest with. If price is a concern, get the one that will make you happy and meet your budget.

If anyone would like to gift me the SG that does base edges as well, PM me so I can send you my home address.:crossfingers:

Ken
 

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