Seeking help getting through / past intermediate stage - focus on skis

[DoryBreaux]

I've been thinking about your comment and realized I don't really understand your last sentence . Can you clarify? Are you saying that if I can tell with a set of skis whether I am bending them vs just skidding them that they are giving me sufficient feedback? As an example, I definitely could tell with the Magnums when I was bending them vs just skidding...it just took more effort to bend them. I felt like I had to consciously drive the skis to bend them but of course the faster I went the easier this was to do.

Yes that.

 

[Snowcat]

This.

A ski looks simple, but it isn't. There are more than three independent variables built into each ski. Manufacturers don't do a good job of communicating what they've built into a ski, because most buyers don't want to wade through that stuff, and even if they did (you???), they still couldn't predict how a ski would behave because there are too many factors involved.

When you demo, the tune can affect how the ski behaves, the demo binding may be different from the binding you put on the ski if you buy a new one in plastic, and the shop may not have the length you will ultimately purchase available for demo. No matter how hard you try to predict how a ski will behave, it's still a shot in the dark what you'll get. Unless you demo and buy the same ski.

The best guide will be a general idea of what you think you want - plus specific recommendations from informed "expert" skiers who know your skiing.

So many variables. OK, so is there a way to tell upfront whether a ski has/had a bad tune upfront so it isn't a good demo of how it will actually do (and thus you should avoid demoing it)? Alternatively is there a way to tell afterwards whether a ski you didn't like was due to a bad tune vs you just don't jive with it? Or is this all trial and error, test and repeat?

 

[ADKmel]

Hi @Snowcat (it's Mel) I've been thinking about your questions. I want to suggest you get shorter poles.. that will lead to you leaning into your boots more, more forward pressure, more control of the skis.. If you are out skiing this weekend try a pair 2-3" shorter.. it may make a world of difference. Poles that are too long lead to standing too tall, backseat driving and the straight locked leg' position. or even try some "no pole' skiing with some exaggerated deep knee bending turns to feel the skis/your body react.

There are so many skis.. to find the perfect ski when you ski 15-20days/year I think will be difficult. it is trial and error. I've been on skis that 5 turns I hated them. and others that as soon as I skied them I loved them..

To get dynamic in skiing it is time in and being able to "trust' your skis and know how they react in all sorts of situations.

 

[Read Blinn]

So many variables. OK, so is there a way to tell upfront whether a ski has/had a bad tune upfront so it isn't a good demo of how it will actually do (and thus you should avoid demoing it)? Alternatively is there a way to tell afterwards whether a ski you didn't like was due to a bad tune vs you just don't jive with it? Or is this all trial and error, test and repeat?

Variables: Throw in snow conditions. If it's icy on the mountain on demo day, you'll be demoing skis on ice (obviously). If you get (real) ice where you ski most often, that's significant. (I've rejected the non-metal version of Kästle's FX85 because it scared me on ice, which is frequent in the east.) If it's a warmish day with soft, not especially deep snow, you'll learn how the skis work on (what we in the east call) hero snow (I probably would have liked the FX85 on that snow). Most things work well on hero snow, including the skier.

Tune: If the ski acts really weird — meaning weird in a way that skis shouldn't act (wobbly or asymmetric or very unpleasantly grippy) — there's probably something weird with the tune. (Not to pick on Kästle, and I've told this story before, but I demoed a pair of LX72s that were dangerously grippy. I couldn't drift a turn to save my life and kept feeling I'd trip over the skis. For reference, my SL skis have a base bevel of .5º under foot — 1º is normal — the LX72s were grippier by far.)

 

[Kbat117]

Well this has been an entertaining thread with lots of good information!

To the OP, the E84s you have are a great ski, so do not feel a need to get another pair of skis to fast. My vote would be to save money by not buying skis, and put it towards your next trip or some good lessons. Skiing is fun at (almost) every skill level!

 

[PisteOff]

E84 is a great ski, with a generous sidecut. Stick with it, I think.

The Experience line (non H-D) is a great developmental ski. The 80 or the 77 might be a bit better than the 84 for getting edge to edge easier and quicker. Myself and my son both skied pursuits and experience skis. The experience 80 was a great ski to learn carving skills on and they propelled me into the stiffer metal endowed skis.

Like the OP, I want to get to the point that I can ski any trail in the resort. The son and I are always careful to know where we’re at and where we want to go. We’ve put ourselves in a couple tough spots. Nothing we couldn’t ski out of, but it was dangerous and not necessarily fun. I want to get to the point that trail ratings are meaningless to me from a survivability standpoint.

The biggest thing to me is balance. Being balanced, maintaining a balanced position, quick recovery of balance, etc. It all requires time on the hill. Absorption of terrain and staying balanced while doing so is huge. Looking ahead and not immediately in front of our tips. When terrain management begins to become natural that’s a big one, is for me anyway. I can bomb nice piste all day. I can edge and make my way down a steep. I can work my way through a bumped up mine field. I want to be able to do both faster with confidence. The heavily chopped up runs have given me problems. I’m not confident blowing through the heavy chop. Getting there. Looking down range better, legs naturally absorbing terrain better, have a lot of turn shapes and styles in the tool box. I can jump the rollers and big piles. I’m athletic and very coordinated but I still get tossed. Practice practice practice. I don’t crash much, more often than not I drop the plow when it gets squirrelly. But I find all of it to be a break down in balance. I’m fall line orientated....I’m 51, physically very strong but my weakness is cardio from decades of smoking. I don’t want to make 50 turns when a dozen should do. So learning to blow through heavy chop and chunder has been my latest endeavor.

The point I guess I’m trying to make is, you can have all the right gear, be it for your ability, conditions, etc. but until you master staying balanced in all circumstances over your skis you will struggle at times. I believe the move from intermediate to advanced is all about two things.....experience (time skiing) and balance. Unless your’e just a natural it takes the former to get proficient in the latter.

Just my opinion.....

 

[Andy Mink]

The Experience line (non H-D) is a great developmental ski. The 80 or the 77 might be a bit better than the 84 for getting edge to edge easier and quicker. Myself and my son both skied pursuits and experience skis. The experience 80 was a great ski to learn carving skills on and they propelled me into the stiffer metal endowed skis.

Like the OP, I want to get to the point that I can ski any trail in the resort. The son and I are always careful to know where we’re at and where we want to go. We’ve put ourselves in a couple tough spots. Nothing we couldn’t ski out of, but it was dangerous and not necessarily fun. I want to get to the point that trail ratings are meaningless to me from a survivability standpoint.

The biggest thing to me is balance. Being balanced, maintaining a balanced position, quick recovery of balance, etc. It all requires time on the hill. Absorption of terrain and staying balanced while doing so is huge. Looking ahead and not immediately in front of our tips. When terrain management begins to become natural that’s a big one, is for me anyway. I can bomb nice piste all day. I can edge and make my way down a steep. I can work my way through a bumped up mine field. I want to be able to do both faster with confidence. The heavily chopped up runs have given me problems. I’m not confident blowing through the heavy chop. Getting there. Looking down range better, legs naturally absorbing terrain better, have a lot of turn shapes and styles in the tool box. I can jump the rollers and big piles. I’m athletic and very coordinated but I still get tossed. Practice practice practice. I don’t crash much, more often than not I drop the plow when it gets squirrelly. But I find all of it to be a break down in balance. I’m fall line orientated....I’m 51, physically very strong but my weakness is cardio from decades of smoking. I don’t want to make 50 turns when a dozen should do. So learning to blow through heavy chop and chunder has been my latest endeavor.

The point I guess I’m trying to make is, you can have all the right gear, be it for your ability, conditions, etc. but until you master staying balanced in all circumstances over your skis you will struggle at times. I believe the move from intermediate to advanced is all about two things.....experience (time skiing) and balance. Unless your’e just a natural it takes the former to get proficient in the latter.

Just my opinion.....

Nail on the head! I'm 53 and getting back into skiing. I'm very much the same; I can get down most if not all runs (except the ridiculously steep ones) but often without much grace. Chopped up stuff still stymies me. I'm not sure why but I think balance is definitely part of the issue. In my head I know what I should do but sometimes the body doesn't coordinate with the brain. Only time on snow will fix that. This year I've had the opportunity to get lots of time on the snow and I have improved to the point where I go into mogul runs and trees on purpose. Some days I do fairly well, other days not so much. But I'm getting there. I have found a mid-80s/low 90s ski to be the best all around for me. Luckily, I've been able to use the DPS Foundation Cassiar 87 for next year several times this year. It's been great. See review here:https://forum.pugski.com/threads/preview-2019-dps-foundation-cassiar-87.7560/

 

[oldschoolskier]

Aside from the skis, seriously consider your boots as part of this package.

A beginner or intermediate boot could very well hold you back from advancing as it dampens and forgives your input into a ski (read as too soft). If what you ski is a race boot and too stiff it again limits you technique as you may move correctly to drive the correct input.

How this plays into skis, beginner skis soft and forgiving, race skis stiff and precise. Everything else somewhere in between.

The key to progressing to the next level is finding a boot/ski balance that lets you grow without hindering. My choice if you have good strength and decent technique, advanced boots and advanced skis (not expert, unless they are FIS SL, and then choose the softer range).

 

[tachedub]

I have always found it important to demo from an "on the mountain" shop. That way you can do an easy for you run, and then a more challenging run and go right back to the shop and see what suggestions they have for another ski to try. You will need to talk to them before so they know that this is your intention. Do not try this on a weekend, they are way too busy to cooperate. Do explain that you want a forgiving ski for the learning process. Side note, Leto Tejada Flores put out a Breakthrough on Skis series years ago that you may still be able to find on DVD that does an incredibly good job of teaching the process you want to learn

 

[Snowcat]

Thanks for the additonal comments everyone. I originally intended for this to be a general discussion on this topic but it was helpful nonetheless. I'm glad that there are other people than me thinking about things this way and I'm glad this thread helped other people!

 

[DonC]

I'll add my piece - PNW skier who cruised blue groomers and wanted to get into ski mountaineering (and shortly thereafter matched with an expert while playing ski resort Tinder).

Ski resort Tinder? How is there not a thread about this?! Is it like Tinder, but for finding a ski partner- or actual tinder and if you get lucky the partner also skis?

 

[Analisa]

Ski resort Tinder? How is there not a thread about this?! Is it like Tinder, but for finding a ski partner- or actual tinder and if you get lucky the partner also skis?

Both-ish? Regular Tinder, matched at our home resort and his friend recognized me when I ended up on a chair with them by chance. I was just supposed to use him for rides in his 4WD, but two years later, I guess it's a little more than that

 

[skimore1]

My two cents: The E-84 should be fine providing length is appropriate, I believe it has a good all around flex and torsional stiffness to handle a lot of situations, a side cut that can do a lot and a traditional camber under foot with an early rise tip(rocker) I believe. Ive been skiing a long time and have bought my own ski's since I was in my early teens. We bought a ski and learned how to use it for what it was. Sometimes loved it and sometimes not.I may have missed it in the thread but DEMO some skis and ski the type of terrain you normally would. Get the feel of it then try some terrain that you would like to conquer. If your technique is solid you will better understand how the ski you choose should work. Stick with the lessons too it will help!!! Hope this helps a little.

 

[DCagle]

Interesting thread, and a good read with lots of great information provided for the OP. I, too, learned to ski as an adult and have kept at it for the better parts of three decades.

My take on the scenario: OP tried friend's Magnums, had fun on them, and is now concerned that his own skis are holding his progression back. Personally, I have progressed on every ski I have owned, whether it was narrow, wide, stiff, or soft. After a number seasons on a pair, I'm ready for something different. A new ski does allow me to experience the sport in a different way and improve a particular aspect of my overall skiing. But, in reality, it is most likely the accumulation of hours on the snow, experiencing different conditions and terrain, that contributes most to my overall progression.

The advice to demo many models is spot on. Find a ski that meets your current needs and that makes you excited to be on the mountain. For the OP, this could be a more demanding ski that forces him to maintain proper technique, or it could be a finesse ski that gives him the courage to explore new terrain. It could be a wider, rockered model that excels in free-ride conditions, or a carve-oriented model to master the groomers. Or most likely, it will be a model that combines more than one of these attributes.

Almost any ski can advance your level, if it keeps you excited about the sport and on the mountain. Get out there, challenge yourself, have fun, enjoy the ride.

 

[François Pugh]

I see lots of posts above about how the E84 is a fine ski for a variety of uses, and how one should demo to find the ski they like the best. Maybe so. However, that is not the question; The question is what is the best ski to speed advancement in skill. The answer, once you are skiing parallel and using tipping and bending the ski as your main means of turning, is a narrow full camber, short side cut radius, less stiff than race ski.

 

[PisteOff]

I see lots of posts above about how the E84 is a fine ski for a variety of uses, and how one should demo to find the ski they like the best. Maybe so. However, that is not the question; The question is what is the best ski to speed advancement in skill. The answer, once you are skiing parallel and using tipping and bending the ski as your main means of turning, is a narrow full camber, short side cut radius, less stiff than race ski.

Right, the Experience line.....

 

[François Pugh]

Right, the Experience line.....

Why yes, but only if they are bringing back the 2006 VS Oversize Ti and calling it the Experience 66.

 

[Phaceplanter]

Question: what does the "HD" vs non HD Experience skis represent? I've read comments that suggest sticking with the non HD experience skis, then looked for some on another website and all I saw were the HD versions.

 

[PisteOff]

Question: what does the "HD" vs non HD Experience skis represent? I've read comments that suggest sticking with the non HD experience skis, then looked for some on another website and all I saw were the HD versions.

The HD is a stiffer flex for more advanced skiers. Both the ones below are a couple years old. They've redesigned them a bit now and the top-sheets have changed.

Here's a regular E80. My son has these in 176. Great intermediate ski.

Here's an 80HD with carbon alloy matrix added for stiffness....

 

[Ventura]

I would get a slalom type ski to work on better technique. Then I would add to my ski quiver for the terrain I prefer to ski.

Didn't take long for someone to post this, and I agree 100%!

I was a strong intermediate through my late teens then moved to the southeast and rarely skied for ~25 years. I moved to New England seven years ago and jumped back into skiing in a big way. Close to 60 days a season, tons of racing days, but also plenty of time in a variety of terrain. I've made trips to the Alps and Japan, so not just NE skiing.

I highly recommend working on technique with a set of SL's. You can pick up a pair of older race SL's for cheap, just watch to make sure the binding DIN settings don't exceed what you need. 16 DIN's usually drop low enough for most folks, 14's and 12's for sure. If you get a set of 20's, the minimum setting might be too much for you. The SL's will enhance your need to carve nice turns rather than slide / slip. Also they are a hell of a workout- I usually start the season on a pair though I never race slalom. If you like to 'bomb' runs, be careful with the SL's and their ability to whip into a turn faster than you might be able to react...

Motivation to learn to race, and then continually improve my racing has been a huge boost to the quality of my skiing. Perhaps try a race clinic or two, even if you have no interest in actually racing. I have found that even my 'powder' (deep wet concrete in New England) skiing has improved greatly as a result of skills honed for racing.

As far as non-racing skis are concerned, I have gravitated to the stiffer all mountain skis. I typically prefer something with metal sheets and a full sandwich construction, though my E88's are all glass and still quite beefy. Way easier to turn than my GS race skis, but probably too stiff for beginners to low intermediates. Assuming you want an all mountain ski, look for reviews that rank them highly for advanced skiers.