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LiquidFeet

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I don't think we have enough information to tell you want you want yet. There are gear hounds here who can really help you find the right ski. But they need more info.

--Where do you ski? What terrain and conditions currently flummox you?
--How many days do you ski a season?
--Tell about the last lesson you took.
--How do you start a turn?
--Do you always ski with a group?

...and yes, all this applies to figuring out what kind of ski will help you progress.
 
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Snowcat

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When your on hardpack and on a carve that you know is right, and the ski hooks or skids at the apex of the carve.. you're probably under geared.. when you carve and you know it's right but you need a ton of speed to maintain it, or even initiate it.. you're probably over geared. and for each situation on every hill, there is a ski that is better than another ski.

@WheatKing This comment was super helpful!!

I realized as I was thinking through my situation that what I'm seeking is a better understanding of how to think about skis in the context of skill development and how I can learn to think about this on my own (you know, "teach a man to fish vs give him a fish"). I agree that what I need to develop is my own sense of what to look for and to understand what does and doesn't work. My original hope was to learn from the advice of more advanced folks like you here so thanks!
 
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Snowcat

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@rcc55125 @LiquidFeet. Thanks for your interest in helping :).

Location is a mixed bag say 50% east 50% west. Hoping to do ~15 days this year.

Have had half a dozen or so lessons already with level 2 instructors, working on smoother turns, pressure / edge control, better extension in turns, use of poles.

Most trouble with steep narrow terrain at top of a run getting the first few turns right. In general I feel like my first 1-2 turns at slow speed are usually the worst in form regardless of steepness of terrain. The last lesson was on this. Also need to improve my ability to ski through afternoon crud.
 
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Snowcat

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Maybe I'm not in the crowd you are looking for advice from, but if you are lower intermediate and want to improve, the best ski for you to do that with would be one with a SL shape and full camber, but softer in flex. Soft is a relative term. If you weigh 185 lbs, a Fischer WC SC (not SL) would be great, if you weigh 150 lbs, it would still be too stiff.

@François Pugh - Thanks for the input. I understand the effect of flex "on paper" ... unfortunately, what I don't fully get (but am starting to understand better from comments here) is how that affects real world feel since my experience with skis is very limited. I know that I should probably do a demo day. Just seems so difficult to line up.
 

Tony S

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Location is a mixed bag say 50% east 50% west. Hoping to do ~15 days this year.

Hey Snowcat. We respect privacy, but you have to be explicit in asking for it, if that's what the vagueness is about. People here, collectively, know every run on every mountain around, so they want you to be really really specific about where you ski, east and west. What mountains, what runs? For example, if the steep and narrow drop-ins that you don't feel comfortable on are blue runs at Bretton Woods you might get different input than you would if you're talking about something coming off the top of Madonna at Smugglers. That's going to help you get the best advice.
 
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Snowcat

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E84 is a great ski, with a generous sidecut. Stick with it, I think.

I agree - the E84 (non HD) seems to do a lot of things right. One of the things that made me put up this post, however, is that I was able to try a ski more like 75 underfoot (don't remember what it was) and I found it way easier to edge and gave me a greater understanding of edging and pressure control. Then it got me to thinking what else I was missing in my development that was related to skis... hence this post!

ETA: these were not beginner skis. I borrowed them from an advanced friend of mine. They were probably too stiff for me but still much easier to tip over on edge than my E84.
 
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Snowcat

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@Tony S Haha. No, the vagueness is more about not skiing in consistent places and not remembering the names of runs as I'm often with a group who knows the terrain. Sorry about that! I've skied blue and black runs at places like Squaw and Park City and had no issues and then a black run at a tiny hill (exaggerating) no steeper than those runs and found the first 20 yards challenging due to narrowness, steepness and ice.
 

Monique

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Most trouble with steep narrow terrain at top of a run getting the first few turns right. In general I feel like my first 1-2 turns at slow speed are usually the worst in form regardless of steepness of terrain.

FWIW, this is true for literally everybody.
 
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Snowcat

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FWIW, this is true for literally everybody.

OK, thanks. Phew. Thought it was just me.

By the way, I'm sure you're right that I don't know what is accessible by lift. There are lots of things at this stage of development that I don't know yet and I'm sure I don't even know what most of them are :).
 

Plai

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I agree - the E84 (non HD) seems to do a lot of things right. One of the things that made me put up this post, however, is that I was able to try a ski more like 75 underfoot (don't remember what it was) and I found it way easier to edge and gave me a greater understanding of edging and pressure control. Then it got me to thinking what else I was missing in my development that was related to skis... hence this post!

Sounds like maybe the e84 are too stiff for your speed.

If a ski does not bend, it will not turn. Go a bit softer. Avaoid people validating their own purchases and saying "I just got the new XXXX xxx2000 is a 186, the ski rpis, you need to get this too...Best. Ski. EVR!

+1

Maybe get a softer flex ski for now until your commitment on steeps is there. Maybe used.

I usually upgraded when I was was going faster and the skis felt less stable than desired.
 
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Snowcat

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@Plai Interesting point that has me confused. I have good edge control with the E84, just can't tip it over as easily as the 70 something. I always thought that meant width, not flex. Am I mistaken?
 

Plai

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@Snowcat If you're an early intermediate and starting to venture out on blacks, and not able to edge on the blacks, it's usually because you're in the backseat. That means your tips are unweighted. The softer 75 (or under) ski was easier to turn on steeps because what weight you had at the tips was enough to bend the softer ski.

So, do you really need the softer skis?!? Probably not, the 84s are soft enough relatively speaking.

What you need are a few more days/miles on them. On blue/green terrain, look for smaller bumps or small ridges that run down the fall line that you can go up and over. When you go over, don't get air on them, but *commit* to the down hill side and turn back up hill and repeat. It's an fore-aft body position drill.

There are a number of ways to think about the fore-aft weight thing and everyone seems to have their own terminology about how to get in the right position. The quick little drill above let's you practice in a nonthreatening environment. Best of all, your mistakes will be pretty obvious and it'll be pretty easy to try again.
 
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Snowcat

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@Plai the 70s ski I tried was from an advanced friend. Not a beginner ski. Probably too stiff for me but much easier to tip on edge than my E84.

Thanks for your other suggestions. My instructors don’t tell me I have any serious fore aft issue but I definitely have it at times. It’s mostly when I’m just starting out on a run. Once I get going my balance is pretty decent.
 

Plai

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70s ski I tried was from an advanced friend

Maybe identify the other "70s advanced" ski. A sanity check and a comparison of the shape, flex, etc vs your e84 might reveal why it was easier to tip even though it was stiffer.

Right now, we're mostly throwing guesses at what's going on.

FWIW I went to a double metal intermediate-advanced that was too stiff and heavy in order to get dampness/stability. Now I'm on a softer flex lighter ski with good stability some would argue is more advanced/technical. It doesn't really matter if it's advanced or not. The real question is, does the characteristics work for you?

Welcome to the (expensive ;-) journey of finding the skier within.
 

Analisa

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maybe naive but how can you tell whether you are under or overgeared flex-wise? I definitely can turn but some skis are easier than others to bend and drive. how do you know when you have the "goldilocks" level for you?

Too short is an easy one. You know when you have a stacked washer-dryer and the washer is on spin cycle and the entire thing shakes and sounds like it's about to blast off into space? It's the same sensation on skis. You feel fine with the terrain and could bomb it comfortably, but you have to make turns just to keep the speed lower to avoid the spin cycle sensation.

In a more technical sense, when you bend a ski, you apply energy (force) to it. More advanced skis handle the energy in 2 ways - either being stiff enough that the ski doesn't overbend, or bending a lot and snapping back - being "poppy" - returning the energy so to speak. For the wood in your skis has a modulus of rupture and a modulus of elasticity that captures stiff & poppy qualities, and the same concept applies to things that stiffen it, like fiberglass, titanal, carbon stringers, etc. If your skis lack the elasticity and the stiffness to handle your force, you could theoretically break them, but thanks to a bunch of physics that's *way* over my head about how we turn, they generally just wash out instead.

The question of how long is too long is a little trickier. You should be able to steer it. That changes a lot depending on where you are on the mountain. I'm on a pair of 162s. On the toughest run at my local hill, I wish they were 3-4cm shorter. On most off piste terrain, I wish they were 3-4cm longer. On groomers, I'd love to add 10-14cm. Since I spend 80% of time off piste, I'm making due for now and demoing things in the higher 160s for when I "grow" into them, hopefully as they go on sale in the spring. If your E84s ride like a quiet Cadillac on the groomers, it might be worth trying a shorter demo to test out on steeper terrain. If you dabble on tougher runs, I wouldn't build your setup around the shorter length.

As for handling your nervous sweat at the top of intimidating runs, ski it, then ski it again, then ski it one more time. For my first day skiing doubles, only 1 run had decent snow conditions and I ended up lapping it around 10 times. Surprisingly, you do get a slight boost in confidence when you stand at the top of the run for the second time and think to yourself "I skied this. And even though I fell down 14 times, I didn't die, so there's that."

Oh - and in terms of your E84s vs your friend's skinny skis, the skinny ones sound like carving skis. Those are easier to get on edge since they're specifically built for it. Width is part of the reason the 84s would be harder to get on edge, but a true carving ski has a ton of torsional stability as well. If the 84s were just like a carver but with a wider platform, they wouldn't be nearly as forgiving for an intermediate skier and would lose any ability to float in anything more than a dusting. In terms of whether or not you should dedicate time to carving technique? I know I'm beating a dead horse, but it depends what you're hoping to learn. There are several ways to make a turn - carving, skid/steering, jump turns - being good at all of them would make you a very, very good skier. I've personally worked on steering most. It gives more options for turn shape and speed control. My goals were to get down hard things, so steering was great for that. I've only been exploring carving as I feel comfortable on the entire mountain. Those turns generate a lot less friction, which means more speed. You don't necessarily have to learn one then the other like I did. You could perfect your carving on all the runs you're confident on now first and then up your terrain game, or work on both throughout each ski day. Do you need a carving ski? On one hand, they're built to be the best match for carving turns as you learn the technique. On the other hand, if you're looking to use carving skills all over the mountain and not just perfect corduroy, you'll be carving on something else at some point. I don't think there's a right answer.
 

LiquidFeet

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....I was able to try a ski more like 75 underfoot (don't remember what it was) and I found it way easier to edge and gave me a greater understanding of edging and pressure control. ....
....these were not beginner skis. I borrowed them from an advanced friend of mine. They were probably too stiff for me but still much easier to tip over on edge than my E84.
....found the first 20 yards challenging due to narrowness, steepness and ice.
....I have good edge control with the E84, just can't tip it over as easily as the 70 something. I always thought that meant width, not flex. Am I mistaken?

You are right, the narrow waist makes tipping happen faster and easier. Width not flex, helps with tipping. Flex affects bending, once the ski is tipped.

There are two major things we do with skis, we tip them and we "direct pressure" to the outside ski, to its middle or its shovel, in order to bend it once it's tipped. (Some would argue that we also rotate the skis manually when they are flat, but let's not go there in this conversation.) Being able to tip the ski with ease opens the door to being able to bend the ski once it's on edge and gripping the snow. Fat skis are easy to tip in soft snow, and they will bend when tipped. But if you are skiing on top of groomed, packed snow most of the time, and you want to increase your technical skills that you'll apply on hard snow, a narrow-waisted ski will give you more time to mess with "directing pressure" and bending, since you'll be able to get the ski up on edge earlier in the turn.

Your weight will determine how stiff longitudinally you want that ski. A softer ski will bend more easily, so you can feel it bend, if you're light weight. If you can feel it bend, you've got the right flex. If you feel it bending in a wobbly way at speed, you've got a too-soft ski that isn't stable at the speeds you want to ski.

Your general skill level will determine how torsionally stiff a ski you will want. Let's assume you're working on tipping the ski to start a turn rather than pivoting it around, but that you still do pivot it most of the time (which makes anything steep and icy difficult). A torsionally stiffer ski will hold its grip when you tip it up on edge. If you are not yet controlling your edging with precision, such a ski may send you for a ride you don't want to take if your timing is off. If you're aft sometimes, the same thing will happen. A torsionally softer ski will not grip as readily, so it won't send you off into the trees if you make a mistake (aka, it will be forgiving). Some skis are very soft torsionally because they assume you will not be able to time anything right; these are more suitable for beginners. You don't want one of these because you won't be able to feel it grip when you time things right.

It sounds to me from the quotes above that you should be buying a ski that's 75ish underfoot that's got some torsional stiffness built in (and also camber). Can you find out what that borrowed ski was, exactly?
 
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flbufl

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All mountain ski between 75-85mm waist is nice for east coast. But as a learning tool, IMHO, ski with 70-75mm waist is better.

1. Where are you skiing and what do you want to ski terrain wise? Trees and bumps, steep groomers, East vs West snow conditions?
2. What ski are you currently on? What length too?

For example if you were an eastern skier that skis mostly groomers, but looking into trees....an all mountain ski between 75-85mm waist.
 

flbufl

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I would grade the forgiveness of skis to 3 levels: when you make mistakes, the ski 1) punish you, 2) warn you, or 3) mask for you.

As a learning tool, I would rather choose the ski that warn you when you make mistakes than the most forgiving skis that mask mistakes for you.


I'd review the comparisons of gear that Phil does here and pay close attention to those that say "does not punish mistakes". To me the difference between the intermediate and advanced intermediate(and above) is not so much the skill, it's the ability of one to trust not only the gear, but your abilities. If you can't put faith into your gear you'll never inclinate and angulate.. which is the gateway to advanced/expert

I still remember the run, the spot and the time when I threw caution to the wind, and decided to lay them and myself over and put blind faith into my skis and either they were going to work some kind of magic.. or I was gonna be laid out across the slope.. much to my surprise i didn't fall down, quite the opposite.. and from there the rest because easier..

My advice... ignore the "expert" skis.. ignore the "rec" skis.. get an "easy" ski on which to learn.. for me.. and i'm glad I took the advice from old guy at the ski shop.. was the amp rictor in a relatively short 167.. there are many better skis out there.. but i don't think i would have progressed as well if it wasn't for an easy to ski ski..
 

flbufl

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Try a pair of rental skis (basic, not premium ones) on hardpack, you will instantly know how it feels when the ski is too soft:)

New questions:
  • maybe naive but how can you tell whether you are under or overgeared flex-wise? I definitely can turn but some skis are easier than others to bend and drive. how do you know when you have the "goldilocks" level for you?
 
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