Question for Coaches, video analysis for your athletes.

[hbear]

Wondering what you use to do so?
Our club is looking to possibly improve how this content is delivered (given improvements in technology) and curious what others are doing.

I know many still record on the hill and then go through the content indoors on a screen/TV, and others (like us) have tried experimenting with using tablets right on the hill as well with varying success (e.g. cold is a killer for batteries and screens, bright sun = hard to see the screen).

Some have toyed with just uploading to some online streaming service (e.g. youtube) and having athletes/parents be able to access online.

The premise is two fold. One to provide on hill feedback during training (feel vs. real) and allow athletes to actually see what the coaches are seeing. Two is to provide a vehicle for athletes to take ownership of being their own student of the sport and progress from relying on what coaches are saying/identifying, to understanding what they are seeing and coming to the conclusions themselves as well.

Curious as to thoughts.

Also not sure if this is the proper forum, but thought it was more applicable to race than ski school.

 

[Philpug]

Wondering what you use to do so?

Some have toyed with just uploading to some online streaming service (e.g. youtube) and having athletes/parents be able to access online.

What could go wrong here?

 

[Blue Streak]

Are you familiar with Dartfish?
It's pretty amazing!

 

[BGreen]

Wondering what you use to do so?
Our club is looking to possibly improve how this content is delivered (given improvements in technology) and curious what others are doing.

I don't know what you mean by delivery. I use Dropbox or Sprongo, depending on whom I'm working with. Dropbox I will try to upload whenever I have access to wifi or overnight. Dropbox uploads take a while, especially with slow internet. If the video is not uploaded by the time the athletes leave, like if we have a late lane time, I'll send a group text when it is uploaded. Video is organized in folders by date, and if I'm really nice (unlikely) I will label the video with athlete name and run number and video position (BillG_SL1_upper), but that info is narrated at the beginning of the video anyway (pretty sure all coaches do this). Our cameras are wifi enabled and transfer video to an ipad. We use Coach My Video Pro, but more often than not I just use the photos app because it is easy to slow-motion scrub forward and backward. Generally I will shoot three athletes a run and review with them on the chair lift. I think video is most useful when it is reviewed as close to the run as possible when the feel of the run and the choices made on it are freshest in the athletes' mind.

I know many still record on the hill and then go through the content indoors on a screen/TV, and others (like us) have tried experimenting with using tablets right on the hill as well with varying success (e.g. cold is a killer for batteries and screens, bright sun = hard to see the screen).

I have no trouble getting through a weekend on a charge on an ipad (though I tend to charge nightly because I get anal about that stuff). Camera batteries depend on the camera and how you use it. I can shoot all day on a single camera battery, but uploading the video to the ipad burns through charge quickly, especially in very cold. On a super cold day, where athletes are going inside to warm up every two or three runs, I'll leave the ipad inside and transfer there, which seems to help camera battery life. It also keeps the downtime warming up inside productive. I've moved away from reviewing athlete video on a big tv with the group unless it is something I want everyone to study and put one person on the spot -- for example only one person nailed the line or had the right timing on a jump. World Cup video goes on the big tv. When you are sitting with a couple kids and an ipad, you have their full attention. TV, not so much.

Some have toyed with just uploading to some online streaming service (e.g. youtube) and having athletes/parents be able to access online.

The premise is two fold. One to provide on hill feedback during training (feel vs. real) and allow athletes to actually see what the coaches are seeing. Two is to provide a vehicle for athletes to take ownership of being their own student of the sport and progress from relying on what coaches are saying/identifying, to understanding what they are seeing and coming to the conclusions themselves as well.

As noted above, video is uploaded to Dropbox or Sprongo depending on the group I'm working with. I generally try to avoid commentary on video because I don't comment on the run until I've talked with the athlete about it. Usually I will hand them the ipad and just ask them what they see, and ask specific questions about it (Is this where you wanted to start the turn? If you round it out going into the pitch here, will you be faster or slower going into the flats?). Only then will I tell them what I see. Other coaches comment on the video and post it on the sharing platform. I don't like this method because by the time the athlete gets the feedback, it's too late for them to make the changes and they may or may not remember how it felt. Also, it is easy for a coach to skewer an athlete on video for a terrible line when the athlete was working on smoothly building edge angle at the top of a turn. Not only is the commentary useless, it's damaging. Further, I have had parents that will review the video with their kids and wonder why the coach said their line was low two weeks ago and it still isn't fixed, or post the video on Facebook to brag about the kid, only to have a soundtrack of the coach berating the kid.

Let me know if you want more. I could go on and on about video as a training tool.

 

[hbear]

What could go wrong here?

Perhaps but as a parent myself it's done more in a "this is what we are doing and working on" and in no way done to compare kids. There is always something to be gained from observing and supporting everybody, but I can see where it can go wrong. (But in those cases it will go wrong irregardless of what is done).

 

[Philpug]

Perhaps but as a parent myself it's done more in a "this is what we are doing and working on" and in no way done to compare kids. There is always something to be gained from observing and supporting everybody, but I can see where it can go wrong. (But in those cases it will go wrong irregardless of what is done).

But you are a coach and not like all parents. Think of little league parents...X20.

 

[hbear]

Thanks @BGreen, that helps and is insightful.

Just wanting to make sure we aren't missing anything others are using and it sounds like we aren't.

I do agree 100% on nearly immediate feedback, just a bit tricky to do this well. Interesting about review with athletes on the chair up. I know coaches here typically setup shop at their respective positions (e.g. Top of course, mid, end) and use radio to communicate what they all see then athlete gets the feedback from bottom coach. Then the athletes cycle in their pod back up.

I agree in engaging the athlete to get a sense on what they are doing or feeling before feedback.

Interesting to hear you have gone away from group video, a lot of what you say does make sense. However as mentioned there is a lot to be gleaned from watching an athlete nail something or use the "pros" to model a viewpoint.

Thanks, I will certainly reach out to discuss in more detail as I believe it is such a valuable tool when used correctly.

 

[hbear]

But you are a coach and not like all parents. Think of little league parents...X20.

Not a ski coach but have experience in working with high performance athletes.....parents can nuts for sure. My experience is more are reasonable and only the few crazy ones are the ones we really think about.

 

[BGreen]

Just wanting to make sure we aren't missing anything others are using and it sounds like we aren't.

The one thing I might add is mix up the angle of view. Static looking uphill, static looking downhill, and low- and high-angle follow cam all have value.

I do agree 100% on nearly immediate feedback, just a bit tricky to do this well. Interesting about review with athletes on the chair up. I know coaches here typically setup shop at their respective positions (e.g. Top of course, mid, end) and use radio to communicate what they all see then athlete gets the feedback from bottom coach. Then the athletes cycle in their pod back up.

I don't think there is an absolute here. What we do depends on athlete/staff ratio (never more than 6:1), whether I want them to get video, feedback, or neither. I don't think every run should have video unless you have a dedicated video person. I see a lot more when I'm not looking at a tiny little screen. Everyone checks in on a start radio every run, so there is an opportunity to discuss things then. When practical, I also like to have a second radio at the bottom with the timing system -- preferably on a separate channel -- so if I'm stationary on the hill, I can talk to the at the bottom. If we are running full length, our training hill has four distinct sections and there is nowhere to station where you can see more than two of them.

Interesting to hear you have gone away from group video, a lot of what you say does make sense. However as mentioned there is a lot to be gleaned from watching an athlete nail something or use the "pros" to model a viewpoint.

This was pushed down from above a few years ago with the idea that kids don't want everyone else to see their critique. I think that is true in some cases, but there is a lot to be learned by watching your peers' video. The flip side is that they can still see everyone's video on Dropbox if they wish, and doing video on the lift or at the bottom of each run keeps everyone on the hill longer. One of the great problems of group video sessions is it is a big time commitment that could be spent doing other things. Personally, I still believe it has it's place.

 

[Swede]

We've done group videos on camps, when no one's going home. After PE everyone gathers in coaches cabin to look at and learn from the "dailys".

 

[K2 Rat]

As we all know, video is key and so important for kids to see themselves. But hard to figure out the best way particularly with a weekend program. I coach a fri-sun feeder program for an academy and we can't take away from snow time and the big group session after skiing just does not work. Of course, Dartfish is awesome, but don't have time to go thru with each athlete. I used to load videos on Sprongo and that is a great program. Kids could see midweek when they were tagged in a video and they can watch it at home. The problem for me is that it is very time consuming to write comments on it and, for a lot of kids, they don't know enough about the sport to benefit from watching it alone. So, I am using Coaches Eye now, which is a $5 app on my I-phone. I can take video on the hill and show kids on the lift . It allows me to zoom in and go frame by frame. Slowing it down is so key for kids to see. I will also look at their video with the kids at lunch. But I always create a video analysis with my voice critique and send to them so they can watch midweek. Parents love them and unfortunately some will watch much more than their kids !! It is a great tool ( like the others ) and allows me to talk them thru it, draw on it and also do side by side. Besides filming on my phone ( which you have to up close ), I will film with my video camera and upload into coaches eye. As of now, I put on YouTube so it is saved, but not required to do this. They do like that they get a lot of views from people around the word and not sure why a lot of these people follow my channel. Here is one example-- what is difficult is to keep it short and not mention everything possible that a kid needs to work on. Depending on the athlete, I try to say something the child is doing correctly besides what to work on. Although not much praise in this one, here is an example of a couple of 10 year olds I worked with last year and what you can do with Coaches Eye :

 

[Moses]

Coach's Eye, Sprongo

 

[Muleski]

A lot of good comments, and thoughts.

I think it's interesting to think about how video can be a really good tool for some athletes, depending on how it is shot, what they are watching, whether they are watching with a coach, and how it's being used. One thing that really has always stuck with me is that kids all learn differently. And coaches need to reach those kids in ways that will work.

I have witnessed coaches getting all geeked out over video with young kids, speaking in technical terms and language that the kids can't understand. Kids eyes glaze over. I think it also goes on, up on the hill. Many coaches are super well meaning, and like to get really into the weeks on techno speak. The kids need to have it simple. A coach might have a kid for one season. The kid might keep at this for close to 20 years. My kids started at six, and stoped racing at college graduation, 24 for one, 25 for the other.

I watch some really exceptional youth coaches, dealing with very good racers and the language always matched the kids age and maturity level. The younger the simpler. Not what you want to see for output, or the result.....but what you want them to do. Body movements. "crush the boot....", whatever. I've seen situations where the kid may be working on one thing, and suddenly it clicks and there is a breakthrough. Later the coach might show the kid a small amount of video....her you were before we worked n that, and here you are afterwards. Look better?

The amount of time that it takes a coach to compile this stuff and sort through it is huge. Parents, to a large degree want to see it ALL, all the time. I get it. They pay the bills. Big bills. But I don't know if its a good thing. Again, I know some good coaches who use the video in just the right amounts, right places, with the right kids.....and drag their tales to get it up on something like Sprongo for mom and dad. The last thing a coach needs is a group of parents, almost always well meaning and truth be told not that clued in, to be asking him or her about how thei kid is doing based on their video review.

It gets even worse as some kids look great on video, and others do not. Can get a bit out of control.

Then of course we have the classic "looks good to the kid and parents, times dog slow." My daughter had a close friend in her ski academy years who looked tremendous to the uninitiated. If you knew what you were watching, you would pick up on the fact that he overspeed every turn, held on to his turns too long, and was dog slow in transition. When that happened in every turn, it adds up, particularly as you become an older teen and other kids do not have those issues. It can ad up to 5-6-7 seconds a run issues. And you can have parents pouring over the video, saying he looks great......and getting in the way.

Watching the stars nail certain things can be a plus, if the kids know what they are watching, why, and how to pull it off.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Hmm, as a Masters coach, video is sort of a double edged sword. It can definitely be useful BUT the time required works against it. I can have 20 athletes in a training session with just myself and an assistant so, replaying video on the lift, or even at the bottom of a run is out of the question since we are both on the hill all the time. When I do video I will normally only shoot the first and the third run for comparisons. I will use radios at the top and bottom of the course to pass on comments and advice after each run but do not show video on the hill. Since a lot of our sessions are weekday mornings, most of our athletes ares dashing back to work as soon as we pull so even when I have video not usually that many around for a group session. Unfortunate but that is the reality. I use coaches eye for analysis when possible. At weekends a bit easier to do some video debriefing but our primary sessions are thursday and friday mornings. I will cut and send sections out to athletes but that is also very time-consuming for me and, while many of my athletes are mature enough to be able to learn something from it, without coaching input, it is less valuable. I will go though it with them individually when we get an opportunity.

We don't have a Sprongo subscription unfortunately although I have used it in the past and like it. Posting files to a private, non subscription, Dropbox account quickly hits space limits so I look for different options for file sharing where possible.

 

[razie]

if you can go inside and it only takes a few minutes, go inside with a small group. you can show/demo/stand up/look at that etc.

the next best thing is to grab two athletes and review in the lift - this works well when you work on one thing... but this is true of most video sessions: you should focus on one skill/movement at a time.

even at the top of the hill - this maybe works better for tactics, line etc.

The most important part for me has become to make sure they go out right after video session. This is when they improve the most.