Orienting Upper Body to the Outside of the Turn

[Suzski]

I've been diligently struggling to understand this concept. Is this a technique used primarily in racing or should any advanced skier be aiming to execute turns this way (or at least be able to)? Here's Debra Armstrong teaching U10 race coaches. The discussion starts at about 4:12 and follows through to the end. I'm assuming that the real purpose is to get the skis around a gate, but I've never raced and I really haven't a clue.


thanx in advance!

 

[LiquidFeet]

If you are asking if a recreational skier should face the outside of the turn when not racing, the answer is yes - if it's a short or medium radius turn.

Why? There are lots of answers to this question, and they have to do with what "facing-the-outside-of-the-turn" is paired with. It doesn't happen in isolation. So you may get lots of different answers depending on the other stuff people will be thinking about. Those answers may be confusing.

---First of all, a turn needs to be created by the feet and legs, not by the upper body.

---Some people keep their upper bodies (including the hips and everything above them, the whole torso, pelvis and shoulders included) pointed the same way the skis point. It's called "skiing square to the skis," or "following the skis." This is fine when the skier is making a huge long turn, but not so fine when making short and medium turns. That's because the upper body has a lot of mass. When it turns left then right then left then right with every turn, it has the potential of throwing the skier out of balance. It takes some energy to stop it from turning right and start it turning left. It weighs a lot. Keeping the upper body "quiet" allows the skier to maintain better balance and not be thrown left-right by the upper body's left-right rotations.

---Some people start their turns by rotating their shoulders and hips first in the direction of the new turn, before the skis start to turn. This rotary movement of the upper body is a strong one because the upper body is massive. Its rotation can drag the skis around in the direction of the new turn. This way of starting a new turn is called "upper body rotation." It's a bad habit, but it works in some situations. Its problem is the same one above, only worse, because the rotation is more deliberate and dramatic. Try skiing this way in moguls; you'll throw yourself down with every turn.

---The way to avoid having the upper body rotate when making short turns, like the ones Deb is making, is to face it more or less down the hill while getting the skis to turn beneath it. When a skier does this, the turn is being created by foot and leg movements, not by upper body movements. That is a very good goal for any skier. When the skier does this, the upper body ends up facing the "outside" of the turn when the skis are pointing down the hill and afterwards at the bottom of the turn. It's also called "facing your bases," and skiing with "counter."

---An added benefit of "facing your bases," in addition to removing the upper body's rotation from the turn and smoothing out balance, is that that body position allows the skier to lean the upper body out over the outside ski a bit. This helps direct weight and pressure to the outside ski, where it should be. That outside ski needs to handle the skier's weight and the accumulating pressure from the turn.

---Many skiers who ski square, or who use upper body rotation to start their turns, also lean the whole body as a unit to the inside of the turn to help get the skis tipped up on edge. "Leaning in" aka "banking" puts a lot of weight on the inside ski. When this happens, the outside ski tends to lose its grip, decreasing the skier's control over the turn. That's not good. No one needs to lean the whole body in order to get the skis tipped up on edge. That's overdoing it big time. (Just tip the skis with your feet and lower legs.)

So the skier making short and medium turns, who skis square, who leans inwards to tip the skis, who maybe even turns the upper body first to drag the skis around, needs to learn how to start a turn with the feet and legs while holding the upper body quiet. A byproduct of learning to do this will be having the upper body facing the outside of the turn.

Some approaches have the skier face their bases at the very start of the short/medium turn. This can mean turning to face almost uphill at the very start of a turn. The more prevalent teaching systems have the skier face more or less downhill the whole run, so that as the skis turn under them, their upper bodies end up facing the bases without ever having to "turn" to face that way. They "ski into counter."

Hope that helps.

 

[Rod9301]

Actually, you face the outside ski in all turns, short to long.

Harb does a good job explaining why.

 

[slowrider]

More Angulation less Inclination.

 

[François Pugh]

What works better for me these days is face your upper body in your general direction of travel (as you ski in and out of counter).

 

[DavidSkis]

TLDR: See bullet points at bottom of this post.

This video is missing a lot of context! We have to expect that these skiers already lead the turning effort with their lower joints, AND that they have enough mobility to be able to balance.

Deb appears to me to be talking about two things here: Separation, and moving with the ski (as opposed to away from the ski)

Separation
If your lower body leads the turning effort, you can (and I would suggest, should) let separation happen. Separation is when you allow those joints to keep turning without the hips and chest and shoulders turning. Separation is caused by your legs turning in the socket. It allows cool things to happen, including angulation, which allows for grip, and a very nice "coiling effect", which auto-turns your skis.

The effect of separation is a bit like a spring. If you wind up a spring and let it go, it will unwind. When you've separated, and you balance on the sweet spot of your ski, your legs will unwind into the next turn. Separation lets you ski shorter turns and steeper terrain. It also leads to angulation, which gives grip.

In the video, Deb uses a form of javelin turn to artificially creating a twist into separation. This is only to create a sensation. In normal skiing, you shouldn't have to twist into separation - it should be an outcome of turning the lower joints. I separate just by resisting the spinning forces by gently engaging my core muscles.

Moving with the ski
The more important concept I think Deb's getting at is travelling with the ski instead of moving away from it. For most skiers, if they want to go left, they'll step on the outside leg, move their hip in, and then try to balance on that outside leg. You can temporarily get a platform this way, but by tipping your body inside the turn, you're moving away from the ski. Moving away from the ski takes the pressure off the ski, which stops all turn shape from happening. The end result is a rushed, low pressure top of the arc, heavy ski at the end of the arc, and a braking, scrubbing hook back up the hill to control speed. We can do better!

If you can instead let your body travel towards the outside of the turn, THIS will build the platform, create some load on the ski, and cause the ski to bend, which lead to the change of direction. Think of it like loading a trampoline at the side of the hill. When you trampoline, you don't push away from the trampoline - you load into the trampoline in order to spring. Or think of a bow and arrow - you want the arrow to pull back against the string in order to release. In this case, your body is the arrow, and the string is the side of the hill.

Anyway, those are the two concepts I think she's working with. What it means for the skier:

• Separation helps me make strong short radius turns, and it helps me to be angulated, or balanced on the outside leg, which improves my grip.
• Separation happens when the lower joints lead the turning. This means my turns can be more powerful, more proactive, and easier to adjust (e.g. shorter vs longer) than when I use the upper body to turn.
• Separation should happen just by resisting those spinning forces with a bit of core activation - I'm not twisting my spine or pushing or pulling my hip anywhere. Too much separation creates a manufactured look, and then you're skiing for form rather than for function. And I'm sure it will block you up somehow in your skiing.
• Expert change of direction happens by letting our mass move to the outside of the arc.
• If I push away from the ski, I am no longer moving my mass to the outside of the arc; pressure will come off the ski at the top of the turn, which impedes the change of direction.

 

[Fuller]

The very last comment she makes is my takeaway for the video - I understand and am starting to see the benefits the previous points, but what is interesting to me is the drill at the end where she starts on the little toe edge and it becomes the new outside ski. I can't do that at all - yet.

All of which is not relevant to the OP's question but I'm happy to get ideas wherever I find them.

I also think something is missing - even if you "get" the concept of separation how do you make it happen? For me it was a true understanding of what should be happening with that inside ski in order to be able to create some separation / angulation. Shorten the inside leg, tip it to the inside of the turn and pull the tip of the inside ski closer in line with the outside ski. Do it as one fluid motion and let your hip fall to the inside. My skiing is greatly improved in the last week by finally being able to execute this in less than ideal snow.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Steamboat has night skiing? Also, nice mittens.

 

[S.H.]

Steamboat has night skiing? Also, nice mittens.

That's at Howelsen Hill, in town.

 

[coskigirl]

Steamboat has night skiing? Also, nice mittens.

That's at Howelsen Hill, in town.

I haven’t looked at the video so it may be at Howelson but Steamboat does have night skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Oh you have to look at the mittens.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I also think something is missing - even if you "get" the concept of separation how do you make it happen? For me it was a true understanding of what should be happening with that inside ski in order to be able to create some separation / angulation. Shorten the inside leg, tip it to the inside of the turn and pull the tip of the inside ski closer in line with the outside ski. Do it as one fluid motion and let your hip fall to the inside. My skiing is greatly improved in the last week by finally being able to execute this in less than ideal snow.

You need to ALLOW it to happen. It's more about making your lower body turn while NOT turning the upper.

 

[JESinstr]

I second what @LiquidFeet has written above. Here is a video by JF Beaulieu that does a good job on the subject of separation. IMO, separation is the result of proper alignment with the outside ski for the task at hand. Understand that how the shoulders/chest (what I call upper body) position themselves is dependent on intent and turn dynamics as LF stated. Shoulders/chest should endeavor to face direction of travel. At low speeds and low dynamics this is generally in line with the ski. At 3:35 in JF's video he does jump turns which is a down the fall line short radius exercise followed by SR turns. You see here that it may initially look like his shoulder/chest faces the outside of the potential turn but it is really facing the direction of travel.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Suzski, what have you been working on in your skiing?

 

[Fuller]

You need to ALLOW it to happen. It's more about making your lower body turn while NOT turning the upper.

Agreed, but it's a bit of a chicken vs egg situation. Speaking as some one who has recently seen the light, I found that it was necessary to learn how to get the skis to turn without a big upper body movement. Once I had some success with that I didn't need to have an upper body movement. It took me 100 days on the snow to get there.

 

[Suzski]

Thanx All,
This info is very helpful. Funny how hearing it explained a different way can sometimes ring bells. I look at videos of myself from the start of last year and clearly see myself "skiing square." Fortunately, this was pointed out to me and I worked on it the remainder of last season. In this year's first video I can see that I'm achieving noticeable separation. There is more work to do, but progress is progress. My mantra this weekend will be drill, baby, drill.

@LiquidFeet, we've been working on just that - more separation. Specifically, I've been working on the crossover and moving forward and down (upper body "falling into" the next turn). What I haven't been doing and just started working on last weekend is feeling the little toe joint in the inside (new outside) ski and rolllllling onto the big toe joint or "rolling into the turn" as Armstrong puts it. My instructor in Taos called it pushing the big toe/little toe "buttons." I'm also moving my hip "onto the bar stool" (something I have considerable familiarity with). I was achieving angulation last season, but it felt artificially created; now it is happening naturally.

 

[Doby Man]

Actually, you face the outside ski in all turns, short to long.

Harb does a good job explaining why.

Facing the outside ski and the outside of the turn is the same orientation and almost literally the same frame of reference. They are both facing the direction perpendicular to travel. Though, when we think about it, that is 90 degrees which is twice more than enough which results in the skier trying to orient their shoulders perpendicular to the skis when it is the hips that we want the focus of rotation to be on. If we rotate our shoulders 90 degrees to get our hips to rotate 45 degrees, then our shoulders become over rotated and late for the next turn. It also implies that the skier is using their upper to control their lower which is never good. However, when we face our “hips” to the outside shovel or ski tip, we get about 45 degrees which is much closer to what we want. As well, our shoulders won’t be laboriously twisting 180 degrees within each and every turn to make it happen.

Though, “why” (as in final ski-to-snow interaction outcome) we actually use rotation and angulation for separation has yet to be described in any biomechanical detail. Since you are hinting on a description that Harb uses, could you save us all from having to dig through his site to find it and instead just briefly summarize it for us here? I’m sure just a sentence or two would suffice. Whenever I log onto that site, my internet connection goes phantom on me.

 

[Corgski]

The very last comment she makes is my takeaway for the video - I understand and am starting to see the benefits the previous points, but what is interesting to me is the drill at the end where she starts on the little toe edge and it becomes the new outside ski. I can't do that at all - yet.

Recently tried doing that, did not go well. My impression is that if you are able to traverse on the uphill little toe edge then transition to big toe, you are not far from being able to ski on one leg. Somewhat surprised that some consider this suitable for a beginner. Nevertheless this is one of my goals for this season.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Doing that at low speed like she is is just about the ultimate test of your alignment and boot setup.

 

[Fuller]

Yes, my biggest issue was that my foot would slip down in the boot and pronate the ankle. Can't stay on your LTE like that.