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luliski

Making fresh tracks
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Nice ride in Santa Cruz yesterday with my daughter and my 12 year old niece. Thanks to my sister's shuttling services, we were able to do a point to point ride, starting in the redwoods at 1200 feet and descending to the ocean. The trail was partly an old ranch road and partly single-track. There were a few little climbs. My daughter (who grew up in the flatlands) was very timid descending until I explained positioning a little and she realized it was like "two-point" on a horse. My niece, who has grown up in Santa Cruz, was a natural, although I don't think I saw her shift gears once (she stood on climbs, something I don't like to do on loose trails).
 

Crank

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Thank you! Do you live on the East Coast? Whenever I visit there I'm surprised at how intolerant I am of the humidity.

Yes in CT. When I was a lot younger I lived out in CA for 7 years and for my first 2 summers back east I could barely function.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Thanks. I may try this too. Do the flats work out ok for climbing?

I'm no great shakes at climbing, never was, but if you have a good pedal stroke, it's fine. If your pedal stroke wasn't so great in the first place, you'll find out!

Bear in mind that "flats" does not mean "that plastic thing I had on my bike when I was a kid." Flats have a bunch of traction pins - the business end of a screw - sticking up from the pedal, and you should wear shoes (the most common brand is 5.10) that have sticky rubber meant to interface really well with those pins.

When you switch to flats, you should probably wear shin guards for a bit while you adapt. I tend to let my pedals hit my legs "gently," which is less gentle when there are small poky things involved.

The traction pins are flat, though, not shaped into a point.

Also, my bike is such a beast compared to my road bike, I have to worry about keeping the bike from rolling back and knocking me over if I dismount on a steep hill.

Wait, what? Do you mean weight wise?

If you're not already doing so - when you dismount, grab the brake. It will keep the bike from rolling down the hill.

Also - if you're wearing shoes designed for flat pedals, they grip rocks and such much better than cleated shoes. I find that walking up technical sections, or sticking out a foot for balance, is much more effective in my 5.10s than it ever was with cleats.

I was following them and they were dismounting often on ascents and descents, causing me to do the same.

If you're not too worried about the kids - leave more room in front of you! Mountain biking is very different from road riding - unless you're trying to pass someone in a race, there's no benefit to being close. On downhills, if I suspect the person ahead of me will be slower, I might count to 20 or 30 seconds before going. Uphill, even more. (I'm rarely faster than other people when actually pedaling, but I can still get bunched up when someone has to dismount and walk. I hate not having the chance to try a tricky section!)
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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I'm no great shakes at climbing, never was, but if you have a good pedal stroke, it's fine. If your pedal stroke wasn't so great in the first place, you'll find out!

@luliski , another point here - people have been doing front wheel lifts, rear wheel lifts, and bunny hops since long before clipless shoes were invented. If people can lift their bike in the air on flats, they should be able to pedal pretty well.

This is still a pretty big area of controversy, and many will swear up and down that clipless are definitely more efficient, but there's some counterevidence, at least for mountain biking, where spinning just isn't as relevant. But there are still reasons to choose clipless, if you wish.

In a conversation with @AmyPJ about this topic a few weeks ago, I hit on my personal philosophy: "Dealing with obstacles while mountain biking is entirely about confidence. If you're more confident riding obstacles in clipless, use clipless. If you're more confident on flats, use flats." This is the sum total of what I believe about mountain biking pedals. I have been riding for about 15 years (with some notable absences due to injury), during which time I started on clipless, went to flats, went back to a clipless that had a platform frame around it, and finally have settled on flats for the last 5ish years. I will admit that this season, for the first time, I spun out my pedals on an obstacle, leading to a pretty big scratch on my shin that seems like it will likely scar. But I wasn't going to be a model, anyway.

If you go to a clinic, they will likely ask you to use flats. I assume this is because the use of clipless pedals can obscure bad technique - you can get away with sloppier riding and still do a bunny hop etc. This could also be an argument for why you want to use clipless - maybe you find it more fun and want the forgiveness. Personal preference.

http://www.nourishbalancethrive.com/blog/2015/10/02/its-not-about-pulling-why-flat-pedals-work/ -- "Both studies offer compelling evidence that support the idea that clipless pedals offer no mechanical advantage over flat pedals." (however there is acknowledgement of flaws in the studies)

https://www.bikejames.com/strength/...lats-are-more-efficient-than-clipless-pedals/ -- (emphasis theirs) "Despite being on crappy flat pedals and using his clipless pedal shoes (hardly a fair comparison to a decent set of flats and shoes), the end result of the test was that the rider pedaled more efficiently on flats. He consumed less oxygen to complete the test on them than he did on the clipless pedals, which obviously shocked everyone." Also: "The real takeaway lesson from the video was that clipless pedals let you get away with a less efficient pedal stroke because you can pull up on the backstroke."

Here's an article that shares my view on personal preference:

http://ebike-mtb.com/en/pedal-group-test-flats-vs-clipless/
"
Before we move further, there is a minefield to cross! There are two types of pedals: in one corner we have ‘flats,’ which are the standard platform pedals with pins that we all know and love, and in the other corner the confusingly named ‘clipless,’ where your shoe is clipped to the pedal. The age old question of ‘clipless vs flats’ is an emotional topic that often reduces internet forums to childish warfare – but in the end, it’s really a matter of personal preference. It’s possible to shred hard and have a great time on either type, and there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Most racers tend towards clipless pedals, as the increased efficiency and the ability to sneak in a few extra pedal strokes puts them at an advantage. Clipless riders prefer the improved connection to the bike, but it’s easy to get lazy and use poor technique when jumping.

In defence of flat pedals, fans will shout, “What about Sam Hill?” – but let’s put that argument to bed. Sam Hill is a freak of MTB nature, and he could win a race in high heels! However, let’s not write off the flat pedal. Riding flats will not only supercharge your technique as you have to pedal and weight the bike properly but will also have you grinning from ear to ear. Those with bad knees will also enjoy the free feeling of flat pedals.

In the end there’s no definitive answer – try both and see which one makes you happiest.
"
 

Doug Briggs

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Thanks, @Doug Briggs. I live in California, so lots of dust. I have lube that the local bike shop recommended for this area. I need to get better about keeping my bikes clean (I try, but am not as diligent as I should be), and now I have two bikes to deal with (not complaining about that, though)!

Cleanliness is very important for reliable shifting. Grime and gunk on the chain, cogs and chainring(s) causes nothing but trouble. Get in a routine. Mine takes about 5 minutes. Hose with low water pressure, brush while running water over the area being brushed, then lube. My brush was designed to be attached to a hose and have water run out the bristles. It has broken so now I have to use a hand for the hose and a hand for the brush, but it gets the job done.
 

luliski

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I'm no great shakes at climbing, never was, but if you have a good pedal stroke, it's fine.
I think my pedal stroke is fine. I used to use toe clips (the ones with the straps) back in the day for mountain biking, though, and would always cinch them down tight for climbs and loosen on the descents. I have ridden my hybrid on mountain trails and been fine, but there weren't any sustained climbs.

Wait, what? Do you mean weight wise?
Yes, weight wise. It's probably about 30 lbs.

f you're not already doing so - when you dismount, grab the brake. It will keep the bike from rolling down the hill.
I thought about the brake thing, but I guess it's not natural to me yet. I don't have to do this on my road bike (brake as I dismount on a climb) plus my hands are on the hoods when I climb on the road. Plus I don't really ever dismount on a climb, I just keep pedalling! I'll have try that next time I mountain bike, or better yet, avoid dismounting when climbing. I was just having to do this because of my daughter and my niece.
If you're not too worried about the kids - leave more room in front of you!
I tried!! I kept catching up. And there were sections where my niece (the only kid really, she's 12, my daughter is 22) would zoom ahead and my daughter would be tentative. It was mostly a downhill ride, and they are both tiny, so it was hard to keep gravity from pulling me into them.
 

luliski

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Cleanliness is very important for reliable shifting. Grime and gunk on the chain, cogs and chainring(s) causes nothing but trouble. Get in a routine. Mine takes about 5 minutes. Hose with low water pressure, brush while running water over the area being brushed, then lube. My brush was designed to be attached to a hose and have water run out the bristles. It has broken so now I have to use a hand for the hose and a hand for the brush, but it gets the job done.
Is this a special brush purchased at a bike shop? Being in a routine of cleaning my road bike is easier because I often ride locally, but I have to drive to mountain bike. I know it's important, but by the time I get back home there is so much to do :).
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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I rode Antelope to Bitterbrush to Nelson Loop this morning. I keep thinking about how many "new" mountain biking trails we have in the last 15 years since I started. Antelope didn't exist then - you had to ride Hall Ranch, which is infamous for its rock gardens. (I think I only ever rode it once - maybe twice. I really should go back and check it out.) Antelope is much less technical but has a whole lot of tight switchbacks. It's also a lot shorter. You meet up with Hall's Bitterbrush trail after a mile.

Trail map: https://bouldermountainbike.org/system/files/Hall Kiosk Map_1.pdf

I took note of a rocky section on my way up - plenty of time to look, since I ended up walking it - and told myself specifically that I could ride this on the way down. Sometimes I do this - check out a tricky (or intimidating) section on the way up so that when I get there on the downhill, I already "know" I can do it. It worked! I gulped and rode it, made it down, and yelled, "Good girl!" loudly. That's not weird, right? Right.

Also had fun using some water bars to get a little air. CPR - crouch, press, release.

Well, this is a little dark for a bench dedication:


20170814_101037.jpg


View from bench. No crocodiles:
20170814_101044.jpg


Another view, maybe from same bench:
20170814_101049.jpg


Most people around here consider prairie dogs pests - but here's some countering propaganda! (I didn't see any of the little guys. Weird, since they're omnipresent near town.)
20170814_103952.jpg


One advantage of frequent stops and slow riding: I didn't spook this little lady, who in any case is probably quite accustomed to bikes by now. I watched her for a few minutes as she ate, and finally managed to snap a rare shot of her looking at me.
20170814_113927.jpg


Neat! Someone installed a tool station where Antelope and Bitterbrush meet. It even has a built-in pump! It also has a QR code you're supposed to use to look up information on how to find the tools - useless as I have no reception here.
20170814_121743.jpg
 

luliski

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try both and see which one makes you happiest.
This makes sense to me, and is what I will most likely end up doing. If cleaning and lubing my pedals gets them back to being super-easy to engage and release, I'll stick with the clipless for awhile. I'm not doing any jumping, and I like to ride just to be outside. I started mountain biking biking again because I get tired of riding with cars zooming past. I like to mix it up, and I have really good memories of all-day mountain bike rides in the Marin Headlands when I lived in San Francisco.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Hey, quick question - this is where the O ring ended up after my clinic - ie, after a bunch of jumps, drops, etc. Is this too much sag , or just right? I have been perfectly happy with the behavior, but I wonder if it's too close to bottoming out.

View attachment 27883

I'd say that's about right. I'd expect to see it smushed up against the crown after an "I can't believe I got away with that" moment.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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I'd say that's about right. I'd expect to see it smushed up against the crown after an "I can't believe I got away with that" moment.

But doesn't bottoming out mean it will likely be damaged?
 

scott43

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Monique do you have a shock air pump? You can fiddle if you have one and see what works..but it looks like you're fine where it's at now as Epic says.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Monique do you have a shock air pump? You can fiddle if you have one and see what works..but it looks like you're fine where it's at now as Epic says.

I have four shock pumps! (I had five, but after advertising them for free on the local swap and everybody saying they wanted one ... only one person actually picked his up!)

But I'm perfectly happy with how it handles, so it's not a matter of fiddling to see what I like better. I just worried that it might do damage if I left it that way.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Rode yesterday afternoon at Thunder Mountain (Berkshire East). Here's a run following the kid down Hawleywood. Actually, Hawleywood starts at the 2 minute mark, I'm not sure what the trail that brings us off the top is called.

That looks so fun! Was that the first time you two had ridden it, or is it familiar? (Seemed pretty confident entering various jumps etc)
 

Erik Timmerman

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That was our third lap. We got half day tickets and probably rode for about 3 hours. Wish it was closer!
 
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