mostly wine stuff

[cantunamunch]

^but sometimes you have to look for them a little harder.

 

[Uncle-A]

Yes. Oak Ridge - Really tasty
http://www.oakridgewinery.com/wine/oak-ridge-ancient-vine-zinfandel/

I have a inexpensive Red Zin from Italy and when they say ancient vines they mean over a thousand years old and that is why they call it Primitivo . Think I will pop the cork on it tonight. I have had it before and it is a repeat purchase.

Primitivo

• Uncle-A
• Oct 5, 2016

 

[cantunamunch]

Hmmm, I've not been terribly* pleased opening Italian Primitivos without at least 6-8 years** on them.

YMMV and all that.

*that should really read: 'at all'.

**followed by airing, a fair bit of airing.

 

[Uncle-A]

Hmmm, I've not been terribly* pleased opening Italian Primitivos without at least 6-8 years** on them.

YMMV and all that.

*that should really read: 'at all'.

**followed by airing, a fair bit of airing.

This one is a 2014 the last one I had was a 2012 and it was good. The more I read about Italian wines they say 2012 was a good year for all the Italian reds.

 

[cantunamunch]

Hmm, app sez I have several '09 A-Mano downstairs I should probably go look at 'em sometime this year (or next)

 

[skibob]

I have a inexpensive Red Zin from Italy and when they say ancient vines they mean over a thousand years old and that is why they call it Primitivo . Think I will pop the cork on it tonight. I have had it before and it is a repeat purchase.

Primitivo

• Uncle-A
• Oct 5, 2016

So, the oldest known producing vines in the world approach 160 years old. Primitivo is believed to be the same as Zinfandel. Italian immigrants brought unknown vines to CA in the mid 19th century. They eventually came to be called by a new name: Zinfandel. In tasting some clones, I believe they are the same. In tasting other clones, its hard to accept. Nonetheless, genetically, they are the same. The way all clones of say Pinot Noir are the same. Yet if you taste lots and lots of PN clones, it can sometimes boggle the mind that they are the same. Same goes for some Sauvignon Blanc, Merlot, and Chardonnay clones.

There can be significant differences between Italian Primitivo and CA Zinfandel. Lately, people have even been planting primitivo clones in CA. The best example I've tasted is made by my friend Hoss Milone at Brutocao Cellars in Mendocino Cty. He does a great job of preserving and highlighting the clonal differences, while making the wine in a modern, balanced style. And its not expensive, $18 or so if I recall correctly. If you ever visit the area (Hopland), I highly recommend stopping at their tasting room (formerly Hopland High School, its a fun and quirky space).

I've had the Epicuro Primitivo before. Its a relative value at ~$6 at Trader Joe's. There are much more exciting versions, but its a good daily quaffer for the money. Unlike some of the higher end versions, its made to drink now. It highlights the "dusty tannins" of primitivo without being too terribly rustic.

 

[cantunamunch]

What about Cali Teroldego, anything fun happening?

 

[skibob]

What about Cali Teroldego, anything fun happening?

Can't say I've seen Teroldego in these parts. A few Lagreins, but Elena Walch (Italy) is still the gold standard for that.

 

[Uncle-A]

So, the oldest known producing vines in the world approach 160 years old. Primitivo is believed to be the same as Zinfandel. Italian immigrants brought unknown vines to CA in the mid 19th century. They eventually came to be called by a new name: Zinfandel. In tasting some clones, I believe they are the same. In tasting other clones, its hard to accept. Nonetheless, genetically, they are the same. The way all clones of say Pinot Noir are the same. Yet if you taste lots and lots of PN clones, it can sometimes boggle the mind that they are the same. Same goes for some Sauvignon Blanc, Merlot, and Chardonnay clones.

There can be significant differences between Italian Primitivo and CA Zinfandel. Lately, people have even been planting primitivo clones in CA. The best example I've tasted is made by my friend Hoss Milone at Brutocao Cellars in Mendocino Cty. He does a great job of preserving and highlighting the clonal differences, while making the wine in a modern, balanced style. And its not expensive, $18 or so if I recall correctly. If you ever visit the area (Hopland), I highly recommend stopping at their tasting room (formerly Hopland High School, its a fun and quirky space).

I've had the Epicuro Primitivo before. Its a relative value at ~$6 at Trader Joe's. There are much more exciting versions, but its a good daily quaffer for the money. Unlike some of the higher end versions, its made to drink now. It highlights the "dusty tannins" of primitivo without being too terribly rustic.

I think you mean the oldest vines in the new world because the Spanish have been growing grapes in what now is CA since before the 1850's. The oldest documented producing vine is supposedly in Slovenia proven to be 400 years old. But other exist that can not be documented because of poor record keeping like the vines in Puglia Italy that produce a fair amount of Primitivo.

 

[skibob]

I think you mean the oldest vines in the new world because the Spanish have been growing grapes in what now is CA since before the 1850's. The oldest documented producing vine is supposedly in Slovenia proven to be 400 years old. But other exist that can not be documented because of poor record keeping like the vines in Puglia Italy that produce a fair amount of Primitivo.

You are mistaking isolated vines here and there with productive vineyards. Phylloxera wiped out virtually all vineyards worldwide in the mid/late 19th century. There are isolated examples (almost all on sandy soil or exceedingly isolated) in the CA delta, Chile, Spain, and a few other places of vines and even vineyards that survived. But even those isolated examples run 120 to 160 years old currently and are the rare exception.

Since then, virtually all planted vines have been grafted to resistant rootstock. As such, they tend to be less hearty than own-rooted vines (although not susceptible to phylloxera). Today, the commercial life of a vineyard is typically 30-40 years. Then its replanted. This is because of a variety of factors. Declining health, productivity, new rootstock that are more desirable, etc.

Of course there are isolated examples of older vines. Some, especially those not in sandy soil, have been studied in attempts to understand how they resist phylloxera. So far they've yielded few secrets. Once an own-rooted vineyard gets into the range we are talking, 100+ yrs old, they develop their own problems. Dead vines. Declining yields. Weird rot patterns, nutritional issues. For example, I know a cinsault vineyard in Lodi (own roots, sandy soil, about 130 yrs old). The yield is around half a ton per acre. Some of this is because there are a lot of dead vines. Some is because the existing vines just don't thrive anymore. Its been saved from being torn out and replanted (to chardonnay in the most recent example I know) many times by those enthusiastically championing old vines. But sooner or later they become a losing proposition and out they come. A healthy modern vineyard in a location like that will yield 5-7 tons/acre of premium fruit. More with lower quality. Although there is a lot of marketing hoopla about old vines delivering better quality, its translation to reality isn't profound in most cases. And almost never profound enough to warrant survival of truly old vineyards long term.

When it comes to primitivo in Puglia and other places, it isn't called that because they are old, although some are. That is the name of the variety. And, like I said, genetically they are identical to zinfandel. It isn't even particularly "primitive" as primitivo has been traced, as almost all varieties can be, to two obscure Slovenian/Croatian varieties.

BTW, I'm not trying to pull the expert card, but you should know I am a consulting winemaker. I've been involved in winemaking all over the world and have dozens of clients currently who consult me and my company for particular challenges they encounter.

 

[cantunamunch]

obscure Slovenian/Croatian varieties.

Heh. My grandmother had something she called 'tribidrag', not sure it actually was. The most we ever got was maybe 50l of jug wine with an oeil de perdrix look to it.

I've been involved in winemaking all over the world and have dozens of clients currently who consult me and my company for particular challenges they encounter.

Ok, question - is there anyone doing dry Furmint in the old school pre-Commie super-spicy style?

Second question - Torrontes - looking for melony flavours and chalky finishes in addition to typical signature ?

 

[skibob]

Heh. My grandmother had something she called 'tribidrag', not sure it actually was. The most we ever got was maybe 50l of jug wine with an oeil de perdrix look to it.



Ok, question - is there anyone doing dry Furmint in the old school pre-Commie super-spicy style?

Yes! I have had some great dry furmint. Couldn't tell you a single name. Great stuff!

Get ready for Zinfandel/Primitivo's ancestors: Crljenak Kasteljanski & Plavac Mali

 

[cantunamunch]

Plavac Mali

Heh, when I was growing up every semi retired fisherman with a boat storage shed/konoba could sell you 5l of plavac or 2l of olive oil, same price (about half of what a squeeze bottle of Coppertone cost, so guess what we used for sunscreen?)


I have had lots of 'internationalized' Furmint - Oremus, Pajzos, Diznoko, Evolucion, Dobogo, Royal Tokaji, they're just simply not as spicy as I remember drinking even in the mid-1980s.

 

[Mendieta]

Second question - Torrontes - looking for melony flavours and chalky finishes in addition to typical signature ?

Oh, Torrontes. I've had many through the years, since I am from Argentina. I don't really care for white wines, but I find torrontes "interesting": it has a very characteristic flavor profile, that is hard to confuse with anything else, (and you are referring to). I think they tend to have sharp, well defined flavors and a bit of acidity, so I would find them a bit more citrus-y than melon-y. Now, I've never had a geeky torrontes, or anything that I would consider particularly complex or ambitious. More of a nice summer wine to drink, chilled, by the pool.

 

[cantunamunch]

You pretty much nailed it - I'm looking for geeky or ambitious Torrontes, mostly because I like the characteristic note but I'd be the only one in the house drinking it unless there's something other than characteristic + citrus.

The closest I've come is old Etchart - it was my go-to wine for Chinese or Indian takeaway all through the late 90s/early 00s.

PS, I think you'd find dry Furmint 'interesting', it too has a signature distinct from anything else. Of the ones I listed above, Oremus and Pajzos are probably the spiciest. My go-to Thanksgiving turkey quaff.

 

[Mendieta]

The closest I've come is old Etchart - it was my go-to wine for Chinese or Indian takeaway all through the late 90s/early 00s.

Etchart Privado Torrontes. NOW you made me homesick

I need a hug!

 

[Mendieta]

Third night for this Garnacha. Making ricotta gnocchi. Yum!

.

 

[skibob]

Heh, when I was growing up every semi retired fisherman with a boat storage shed/konoba could sell you 5l of plavac or 2l of olive oil, same price (about half of what a squeeze bottle of Coppertone cost, so guess what we used for sunscreen?)


I have had lots of 'internationalized' Furmint - Oremus, Pajzos, Diznoko, Evolucion, Dobogo, Royal Tokaji, they're just simply not as spicy as I remember drinking even in the mid-1980s.

Dobogo and Oremus are names I recognize. I always seek out the weird wines--Lagrein, Furmint, Godello, etc. I don't have a comparison to the 80's though. Where did you grow up?

EDIT: Royal Tokaji too of course, but never dry.

 

[skibob]

Third night for this Garnacha. Making ricotta gnocchi. Yum!

View attachment 14493 .

Not to perpetuate stereotypes, but gnocchi is favorite food of every Argentine I've ever known. You'd think they were italian or something.

In all seriousness (and I'm sure @Mendieta knows this better than I do), Italy seems to have a stronger influence on Argentina's culture than Spain. At least in the Mendoza region, which is where most of (and the best) wine comes from. There are towns in Valle de Uco (Andean foothills between Santiago, Chile and Mendoza) where the common language is Italian, not Spanish.

 

[cantunamunch]

Now I wonder if there's such a thing as Argentine bresaola *hungrydrool*