Mental Thoughts/Images to Keep Weight Forward

[SSSdave]

Keeping weight forward in moguls is even more difficult than say groomed steeps, a continual battle. Thus mogul skiers learn to recognize the feeling of a positional stacked form where the quiet upper body tilts in a perpendicular axis against whatever average slope gradient while the body below the waist independently deals with the highly variable terrain on the snow surface. One learns by inner sense of balance to have the upper body leading enough in front that there is a feeling gravity is just enough beyond a balanced threshold to keep the upper body from breast above, especially arms and head falling down in front at the lead. Sometimes when I sense am slipping further back will bend my upper body over and down a bit lower on a turn or three, out of an ideal stacked form, simply to provide more body mass for gravity to work with in order to regain a forward falling ahead position while also stretching my hands out further down a slope that complements pulling it ahead.

Although there are technical terms and verbiage, videos of, and mental images to help doing so, in the end each skier needs to sense and recognize the feelings of body position and dynamic balance while riding in forward motion standing on skis, and over time train one's inner body muscle memory with controlling mind to automatically perform doing so.

 

[Fishbowl]

I try not to think of it as keeping my weight forward. I try to think of it as pulling my feet back under me.
That seems to help me keep stacked a little better.

I like tips that address the cause rather than the symptom.

 

[Rod9301]

I think that feeling you're in the back seat is typically too late.

Most people have a reaction time of about 0.25 seconds, then doing something to correct it takes another. 25 seconds.

So you already traveled 5 feet or so before you can correct the back seat situation.

So in bumps, that's too late.

So instead of feeling and reacting to the back seat, do something to prevent it.

For example, when you crest a bump or go from flat to steep, pull the feet back strongly. This will unsure that you're forward when you need to be, not later.

 

[slowrider]

30mph=44ft/sec.x.50sec=22 ft.
Jack be nimble Jack be quick....

 

[François Pugh]

Staying out of the back seat is a ubiquitous problem. I use a combination of "close the ankle" and "pull the feet back".
However, you (OP) specifically mentioned "steep". It could be the "steep" is psyching you out and making you lean back. I thought up a little mind game thirty some years ago: I don't think of it as steep, I trick myself into seeing it as horizontal, just with gravity pulling more forward than down, and letting it do so. Works for me.

 

[VickieH]

@LiquidFeet - I'm interested in your thoughts on this. You get very specific and detailed, which is exactly what I need. Any images or specific techniques you recommend?

 

[LiquidFeet]

The issue you are asking about is how to get not-aft, right? It's important to keep in mind why we need to be not-aft. The point is to get the shovel to grip the snow. There's no other reason. If the shovel is sliding lightly on the snow while the tail is gripping, the skier has little control over the turn. That's the functional definition of "aft" or "back seat." Being not-aft is particularly important at the start of a turn, since the shovel is the leading part of the ski; it gets there first, it needs to take its job seriously and get a grip.

While paying attention to the shovel gripping, we should not forget the tail. The tail should grip too. You paid for a whole ski; use the whole thing. A tail that is light can easily swish around at the top of the turn, causing the shovel to be loosened and let go as it points downhill. A light non-gripping tail at the top encourages a pivot entry. If it's still light at the bottom of the turn that tail will have a tendency to skid out. Neither of those options is very helpful in getting your ski to take you where you want to go.

How does one weight the tail while getting the shovel to grip the snow at the very start of a turn? Lots of things don't work. Folding forward at the waist doesn't work. Shooting both arms forward a la Night of the Living Dead doesn't work. Bending the knees in an attempt to press into the boot cuffs at the top of the turn doesn't work. Standing on tippy-toes to press down on the ball-of-foots does press the shovel downward, but it lightens the tail, so that only works half-way.

Matt Boyd, one of the PSIA National Team members, did a clinic at the mountain where I work one year where he dealt with this issue of how to gain purchase with the shovel and the tail at the same time. We were all inside for this training session. Matt had a ski with an empty ski boot clicked into its binding. He got two volunteer instructors to hold the ski up for everyone to see, one supporting the shovel and another supporting the tail. Then he took his hand and stuffed it into the front of the boot, pressing down on the area where the ball-of-foot would be. He asked the two volunteers to try to lift their parts of the ski. The shovel wouldn't lift, but the tail did.

Then he pressed the ball-of-foot down again with his hand as before, and with his other hand pressed forward into the front of the boot cuff. Same result; the shovel was "pressured" downward and wouldn't budge, but the tail easily lifted.

Then he took a broom handle and stuck in down into the boot, pressing its end downward where the heel of the foot would be. He tilted the whole broom handle forward so it pressed into the front of the cuff at the same time. When the two volunteers tried to lift their ends of the ski, neither was successful. Both the shovel and the tail were "pressured" downwards. The heel pressure came from the end of the broomstick, and the shovel pressure came from the front-of-cuff pressure. Note: there was NO ball-of-foot pressure; nothing was in the boot in that area. Worth repeating: no ball-of-foot pressure at all.

His point: you can give both ends of the ski a chance to grip the snow if you stand on the rear of your foot (specifically back of the arch/front of the heel according to many) while successfully pressing forward into the front of the boot cuff with your shin. Doing that involves "closing" the ankle, which moves the entire body from the ankle up forward -- all that weight causes the lower leg to press into the boot cuff which keeps the shovel weighted.

So do that. Bend forward at the ankle so your body tilts forward from the ankle upwards, and stand on the back of your arch/front of your heel (!!). Actually, your tibia, the big bone in your lower leg, points straight down onto the intersection of your heel and your arch. Stand on the spot directly below the tibia.

Some people say "back-of-arch" is where you should stand. Others say balance "over the arch." That's because no one wants to say stand on the heel because that quite justifiably brings up visions of back-seat skiing. Oh wait, I think @Josh Matta said it the other day. There you go!!!

I think Matt said press the heel firmly downward. How about this: stand on the foot part that's directly below your tibia.

And bend forward at the ankles. Different side of the same coin for that ankle part: pull your feet back and hold them back. This will bend the ankles forward. Bending forward at the ankle works for some, while pulling the feet back works for others. Different cues work for different folks, thus all the variations.

Matt's demonstration does call into question lightening the heels in order to stand on the balls-of-the-feet. I'm an adult learner, so I remember that when I discarded standing on the BOFs and started standing the way Matt demonstrated with that broom, my skiing improved immensely. It wasn't that long ago.

Here's the image I like to borrow from Paul Lorenz. He is not standing on his tippy-toes; his heels are firmly planted. His shins are pressing all that weight above them into the fronts of the boot cuffs.

from: https://snowbrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Stance-SnowBrains.jpg

 

[LiquidFeet]

If you are worried about doing this on the steeps and trying to figure out how to make yourself do it there, find short-short steeps with a flat-runout and practice on those. The shorter the better. Look around; these little "steeps" are on the sides of the trails where snow has been piled up by groomers (you can side-step up, then ski down), and at trail intersections here and there. They are also in terrain parks -- the "jumps" are short steeps with a flat runout down below. But there you have to watch out for park junkies barreling down on you from behind.

 

[HardDaysNight]

The above post by LiquidFeet should be a sticky. Not only well written but right!

 

[Bad Bob]

1/ Your hands in the field of vision like everybody else said.
2/ If you see your toes you are looking down and in the back seat; look down the hill.
3/ Link your turns. If you are traversing and shopping for a spot to turn you are headed for the back seat.
4/ Project your body down the hill through your turn, it lets your COM (weight) take a shortcut and be on top of your feet as the come through the turn.

5/ Go ski something less challenging and get used to this stuff. Learn it on the flats, own it on the steep!

 

[Johnny V.]

5/ Go ski something less challenging and get used to this stuff. Learn it on the flats, own it on the steep!

Amazing how few people (not Pugskiers of course) understand this concept.................

 

[PTskier]

A friend I've been working with came up with this: Pour yourself down the hill. Feel like your head and shoulders lead everything else down the hill. It is very important to start this early, as soon as the old turn is released, or maybe even earlier as an initial part of the release. Pulling the feet back, way back, with the strong hamstring muscles in the backs of the legs works much better than raising the toes and dorsiflexing the ankles. That's OK on easy stuff, not enough power for steep pitches.

"Flex toes up and push knees toward ski tips (ie press against the tongue of boot)." That does not move the body's center of mass forward over the skis sweet spots.

I'm not sure about LF's thoughts of engaging the ski tails as much as the tips. I want the ski tips to do more work for me. Everyone here can try the tips that resonate with them and see which result in better ski engagement with the snow.

 

[slowrider]

Amazing how few people (not Pugskiers of course) understand this concept.................

They just do not want to put the time/effort in.

 

[Tony S]

The heel pressure came from the end of the broomstick, and the shovel pressure came from the front-of-cuff pressure. Note: there was NO ball-of-foot pressure; nothing was in the boot in that area. Worth repeating: no ball-of-foot pressure at all.

Awesome post, LF. I have some musings on it. Note: I'm not an instructor.

I think the bof thing is an effect, not a cause. Good skiers feel it under certain circumstances, so it's easy to think it's a driver for a good turn. I feel / create high bof pressure on the outside ski in the belly of a locked edge turn when the ski - especially the shovel - is pushing back at me really hard, keeping my mass from moving straight down the hill where it wants to go. I speculate that what's happening here is precisely the need to move some pressure off the tongue and balance it with some heel pressure. Opening the ankle helps with this. It helps keep my com from over-levering the tongue and the shovel in that moment (only). Doing so creates bof pressure by necessity. In the next instant I'm going to need a bit of oomph on the tail to keep me locked through the turn finish, so I'd better not be shovel-heavy. The key not-aft moment comes, of course, immediately after, when I must "pour myself down the hill" (thanks, @PTskier), or be tossed summarily into the trunk.

Note: During the belly of the turn when I'm feeling the bof pressure on the outside ski, I'm typically neutral or even dorsiflexing on the inside ankle to keep tightening radius / edge angle for speed control, if that's wanted or needed.

YMMV.

 

[Marker]

Staying out of the back seat is a ubiquitous problem. I use a combination of "close the ankle" and "pull the feet back".
However, you (OP) specifically mentioned "steep". It could be the "steep" is psyching you out and making you lean back. I thought up a little mind game thirty some years ago: I don't think of it as steep, I trick myself into seeing it as horizontal, just with gravity pulling more forward than down, and letting it do so. Works for me.

I hadn't thought of this quite the way you phrased it, but I realize now that this is what is working for me until I over terrain myself. I then will go back to a less steep run and it feels more manageable. I will then rinse and repeat on that run until it feels routine and not too steep. This works especially well with short sections of black trails. To ensure I'm stacked on my outside, I'll lift and tap my inside heel a few times, but after I pull my inside foot back and tilt it to the little toe. Reaching for pole taps really helps me keep the hands out and weight forward. Do I do all of this at the right place and time? I wish...

 

[Corgski]

I have used the Skia trainer to get a feel for what the correct body position feels like on skis. Gives me an opportunity to experiment with different cues and get immediate feedback on what the effect is. I find that as an intermediate, skis can really confuse one's sense of where you are balanced, something like roller skates will tell you very quickly if you have it wrong.

My question though is how does this translate to steeper slopes? The physics suggests that if you are accelerating at the maximum possible rate for the slope angle, to keep your weight centered over your foot as described by @LiquidFeet, your body position relative to the skis should be the same as on a flat (meaning that you are leaning forward relative to horizontal). However if the acceleration is less, your body position would need to shift back to keep your weight over the same position over your foot. What feedback does one rely on? I am guessing a more advanced skier can tell from the feedback from their skis where their weight needs to be, is this an effect that the those of us still learning need to think about?

 

[chilehed]

Warm up by practicing the "pedaling the bicycle backwards" motion on a series of short rollers, like on a high-school boardercross course; then let that motion inform how you release from one turn to the next when you're on a groomer.
On steep slopes, shift your perception so that the steep slope appears as level ground.

 

[VickieH]

Thanks, @LiquidFeet. On smooth groomers, I wasn't aware of a problem. 6" of new snow on blue trails, packed and chopped, and I was bounced around. I moved my hands farther forward, but noticed that became more of a bend-at-the-waist.

I'll go back to the greens to work on stance and finishing turns. I also seem to be aborting turns early which is triggering defensive moves.

Timely thread.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I use a lot of self talk when I ski. Steep slopes usually just amount to an exercise in confidence. The directive talk gets me going.

On steep slopes, when I'm about to lose my nerve, I tell myself to stay in it. I tell myself all I have to do is keep my weight forward and be aggressive. "Get after it! Finish the job! What are you, a p#*;y? How will that look stopping half way down and side slipping because I'm afraid? I have the need for speed!" It's any mix of drill instructors and manly friends letting me know that fear is the mind killer and this skiing is just a tilted green so get after it, reach for the bottom and be there.

What you have to remember about a steep pitch is that if you back away, flinch, or lose your confidence, you'll fall. Just keep telling yourself to be aggressive and get after it.

As for an image, I like pretending I'm Iron Man, an F/A-18, a monstrously huge bird of prey, or a professional racer. I like to think aggressive thoughts that get me committed to skiing as fast as I can while carving and not schussing. Whatever it takes to get the job done! Be a little kid again! You only need to do it a few times until you get used to steeper pitches.

but that's just me...

 

[Josh Matta]

Some people say "back-of-arch" is where you should stand. Others say balance "over the arch." That's because no one wants to say stand on the heel because that quite justifiably brings up visions of back-seat skiing. Oh wait, I think @Josh Matta said it the other day. There you go!!!

I am extremely cautious about talking about for and aft balance and how truly dynamic it is amoung students and instructors alike. I think heel pressure can be used as a cue assuming the ankle is closed(and ramp/forward lean is correct), if the ankle is open, heel pressure is aft skiing, and nothing more.

I really love the story of Matt Boyd, I have to wonder when I was at the Tech team tryout four years ago, and was observing during one footed pain the S on hayride that him and lani skis, as well Several people in the group that the lifted ski was tip down at the end of turn on the BTE, and beginning of LTE, but was tail down going from LTE to BTE, what his thoughts were on my comments about for and aft balance in that drill , Troy and Tim Thompson actually went along with at the time. This makes me excited to have more access to such a great skiing mind.