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Lauren

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My current AT setup is Tyrolia Ambition bindings on an old pair of Fisher Koa 88s. A few years ago I bought a set of Ambition bindings to put onto an old pair of skis in order to get into the backcountry world with spending minimal money. This year I'm looking to upgrade my setup to something a little more friendly to the uphill, but I don't want to sacrifice downhill performance...the Kingpins seem to be exactly what I'm asking for on paper.

My only hold up is that I ski a lot more on the resort than I do off...and it seems a little silly for me to have a 100% dedicated touring setup for the amount I hike...probably 1/2 dozen days a year...I live in New England and therefore very much a the mercy of the snow gods.

So, my question is, how do the Kingpins stand up to the performance of a regular alpine binding? Anybody here ski Kingpins on a resort ski? Would I be better off sticking with a frame binding?
 

jmeb

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For 1/2 dozen days a year I'd say stick with the frame bindings. The Kingpin is the best choice if you're going to ski in the resort, but the toe piece still doesn't come close to mimicking the power and release characteristics of an alpine toe.

For the price of kingpins, you can probably find an older set of used touring skis with Dynafit Verticals / Comforts / Radicals / Turns -- which are all still reliable, good bindings -- mounted to a set of skis. While the Kingpin definitely skis better than these because of it's heel, ski tourers have been laying down big lines for years on those bindings skiing quite hard. Then you don't need to compromise either setup.

In either case, factor in new boots too unless your current ones happen to be tech compatible.
 

ScottB

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I have a friend who used Kingpins on a resort ski. He skins at resorts mostly, and alternates some lift rides to the top with some skin treks to the top. (I consider him crazy for walking up, but I do get it). East Coast skier. I do see people skinning up at resorts more and more these days in New England. Anyway, I have some bad feedback as he was skiing fast downhill and popped out of his Kingpin toe piece and broke his leg. He blames the binding for the release and the fall was bad. I am looking into AT gear for myself (I guess I maybe getting as crazy as him) and have been asking him a lot of questions. He says there is no where near as much control of the ski with the Kingpins as there is with downhill type bindings. The rest of his family have Ambition type bindings on their skis. He is no longer using the Kingpins and has bought the carbon version of the Ambition (about $600 price) and is going to try that out this year. He does not like the weight of the "typical" frame bindings, but wants the control over his skis. (or he needs to slow down a lot).

I think the issue is "how fast and aggressive do you want to be on your AT gear". If you want downhill performance you need the frame bindings, otherwise you need to dial it back some to the level the binding can handle. (I am not speaking from experience, just speculating from what I have read)

Not to highjack the thread, I am unsure about something and maybe I can get some advise as well. Can you skin with the frame AT bindings if your ski boots do not have a walk mode? I ski the blue Lange Race boots (RS140) and would like to try to use frame AT bindings with them.

I took a look at my friends AT gear the other day and was somewhat surprised. To use the Kingpins, you have to have special AT boots that have pin inserts in the toe. I didn't put his boot in the binding, but the pin connection to the boot seemed very sketchy (very short penetration of the pin into the insert). The boots were also pretty light weight. He has bought another pair of boots that have a changeable toe so he can fit into pin or alpine bindings. So from what I gather, if using frame AT bindings you can use Alpine boots and you probably should have a walk mode cuff on them. If going Pin AT bindings, you need new boots and you are into a whole new world of performance trade offs. For myself, If I could use my Langes with frame AT's, I might give it a try for a little side country. I have no desire to buy new boots and go full back country dedicated gear.
 

jmeb

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@ScottB -- sorry to hear about your friend. That really sucks.

However, there seems to be a lot of FUD (Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt) in your post. While I whole-heartedly agree that alpine bindings offer far superior power and transmission to a ski and are much better suited to inbounds skiing (esp on the East Coast) -- you can absolutely ski very hard on tech (i.e. "pin") bindings. They are not "very sketchy". For example, this entire edit was filmed on tech bindings, without ever locking out the toes, and the skier in it reported (and not via some marketing bit) that he had no pre-release during the season on it:
Regarding skinning in your Lange Race boots. Technically, yes you can. But it is going to be relatively no-fun. (I.e. don't judge the fun factor of AT skiing based on it... it'd be like skiing straight skis and rear entry boots from the 80s and deciding downhill skiing isn't much fun.) You have severely limited range of motion in such a boot, let alone how heavy it is, to take efficient strides. Even an AT boot in a frame binding is far more efficient. And a pin/tech boot in a pin/tech binding is many times more efficient again over that.

There is no doubt that there are performance trade offs with AT gear. Even advanced, non-expert skiers can feel that. That said, incredible skiing is done on tech bindings. Just not huge, high-G turns on hardpack or in bumps.
 
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Lauren

Lauren

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@ScottB - Yes, you can use any alpine boot in a frame binding, regardless of having a walk mode or not. That being said...I've never skinned with a boot that doesn't have a walk mode. I imagine it's manageable, but not the most enjoyable thing to do. As for your comments on tour boots with a pin connection, many alpine bindings (as well frame AT bindings) are now being made with an adjustment to take either type of sole...MNC (Multi Norm Compatible).
 
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Lauren

Lauren

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For 1/2 dozen days a year I'd say stick with the frame bindings. The Kingpin is the best choice if you're going to ski in the resort, but the toe piece still doesn't come close to mimicking the power and release characteristics of an alpine toe.

Thanks for your input...I'd like to add to my first post that these would not be my only skis, and therefore would only be used on the resort on better snow days. I don't plan on taking them out on the resort on hard packed, stay on the trail type days. Curious if this would change your initial thought of sticking with frame bindings? Also follow-up question, have you owned or personally tried the Kingpin?

In either case, factor in new boots too unless your current ones happen to be tech compatible.

I am considering new boots anyways, so not a big factor in my decision.
 

jmeb

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Thanks for your input...I'd like to add to my first post that these would not be my only skis, and therefore would only be used on the resort on better snow days. I don't plan on taking them out on the resort on hard packed, stay on the trail type days. Curious if this would change your initial thought of sticking with frame bindings? Also follow-up question, have you owned or personally tried the Kingpin?



I am considering new boots anyways, so not a big factor in my decision.

I have not owned, but have skied a total of about 10 hours on them: one full day of touring, and 2 days of in-bound demos. Touring day was mostly good snow with some windblow crap at the top. One inbounds demo day was 6" of fresh becoming crud. The other was spring -- frozen crap in the morning, spring corn as day went on.

For touring, they are a huge step up than frame bindings, even the lightest one. This has as much to do with the better pivot point on tech bindings, as it does with weight reduction.

For skiing, they are very good. You do not get the dampening or elasticity in the toe that you do with an alpine binding. This is most noticiable on frozen / windswept snow, or in consolidated crud. For soft snow conditions they ski very well. The power transmission in the heel far exceeds any other tech binding. (Although this year there is a new binding coming out from Fritisch called the tecton which supposedly has both the alpine-style heel of the Kingpin, and the lateral release toe of the Vipec which no other tech-style binding can claim.)

For softer inbounds conditions I can see them being quite workable -- especially if you're not a bigger person skiing very aggressively who is hard on their gear.
 
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Nancy Hummel

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I demo'd a pair of Mountain Experience 88's with Kingpin bindings for one day with Scott Orbit boots. I skied an entire day at the resort to see how they did. I was pleasantly surprised at the performance and solid feel of the whole setup. I skied all kinds of snow and some bumps.
 

ScottB

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Thanks for the info, Elemmac and jmeb. That video had some amazing skiing, I wouldn't have thought possible on tech bindings.

Elemmac, you probably have seen the reviews, but Blister has a lot of info on tech bindings and the Kingpins specifically. That is the source of my knowledge on the subject. After reading their Kingpin write up, I was all set to put a set on a new pair of DPS alchemist wailers, but then I learned I need new boots and that upped the cost significantly.

To comment more on your situation, (not that I am knowledgeable, just my opinions) my friend has said a lot of the "less control" effect comes from the ski boots, not just the bindings. And you are planning on new boots, so it would make sense to get a boot that can use either binding (and give close to alpine level control). Also, it seems icy conditions and lack of shock absorbtion is the weakest characteristic of tech bindings, which won't be a big factor to you. The one thing I dug into a bit, was the weight savings of the various approaches. If I remember correctly, the carbon Ambitions and the Kingpins were pretty close in weight. I think that is worth checking up on. Here is what I have found: Ambition -- 1786 grams Kingpin 10 -- 1500 grams per pair.
 

jmeb

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If I remember correctly, the carbon Ambitions and the Kingpins were pretty close in weight. I think that is worth checking up on. Here is what I have found: Ambition -- 1786 grams Kingpin 10 -- 1500 grams per pair.

Just FYI, a 1500g frame binding is less efficient going uphill than a 1500g tech bindings for two reasons:
1. With a frame binding, you are lifting a significant portion of the weight each step (the frame, the heel, and part of the toe). With a tech binding the weight is on the ski and slid along the snow which is far more efficient.
2. The pivot point of a frame binding is inherently further in front of the toe than a tech binding. This means you have to move further forward each step in a frame to cover the same distance, which feels less natural.

Also...just saw the retail on the Carbon ambition--almost 1K....eye-watering. You could get a pair of kingpins and boots for a similar price.
 

Monique

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Can you skin with the frame AT bindings if your ski boots do not have a walk mode? I ski the blue Lange Race boots (RS140) and would like to try to use frame AT bindings with them.

This was already answered, but I wanted to add that I believe @RachelV uses her alpine boots in AT bindings. They're not race boots, I don't think, so they probably have a less aggressive lean.
 

Doug Briggs

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I put my first pair of Kingpin 13s on DPS Lotus 138s. I paired this setup with Lange XT FreeTour 130fs. For my first day on the skis and bindings I went to Breckenridge on a powder day. I hit everything I usually ski with full alpine gear on this setup. Not a problem. How will they hold up to daily inbounds skiing? I don't know. They are lighter and possibly less durable than a full alpine binding, but my experience so far has been that they are tough and work well. The significant difference and reason for their high level of performance is the heel piece that operates and holds down the heel in a fashion similar to standard alpine bindings. It is my considered opinion that the weakness of (low) tech bindings is the pins at the heel, not the toe. Marker's Kingpin overcomes that weakness.

As for touring in race boots, I have done it for over 15 years. Most recently in my Fischer RC4 Pro 130s. I keep the lower two buckles fairly snug and loosen the upper buckles but don't leave them undone. The lace up liner does a great job of isolating the foot from any movement you may experience. I have never had a blister from touring in alpine race boots. For me the only disadvantage was weight, but my touring generally consisted of an approach, a run or two, then exiting. I favored the power and performance of a race boot for the descent over the lightness during the ascent. If I were to go for an extended tour I might have reconsidered my setup but extended tours haven't been on my calendar so the re-eval wasn't necessary. I used both Marker Baron and Fritschi Diamir frame bindings with the race boots. I preferred the performance of the Baron but the Fritschi was fine for powder skiing. I basically just tour for powder, so there you go.

FWIW, the Lange XT FreeTour is one hell of a boot. Walk mode, pin capable, WTR sole. I used it for touring last winter as well as my daily resort skiing and coaching. I recommend it highly.
 
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Lauren

Lauren

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Also...just saw the retail on the Carbon ambition--almost 1K....eye-watering. You could get a pair of kingpins and boots for a similar price.

With a quick Google, I just saw this price-tag as well...yoowza! They're a great idea in theory, but I can't see myself swallowing that bill.
 

Doug Briggs

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I'm not impressed by the Ambition, carbon or otherwise. I simply don't like the design of the frame. A solid unit like the Marker Royal series seems much more solid and less prone to twist.
 

BoofHead

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Love my new Kingpins.
Had no issues with them on a recent trip to NewZealand. Variety of conditions from ice to soft, resort and beyond.
Not the best touring binding, not the best down hill binding but a good do everything piece of kit.
 

Doug Briggs

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Earlier this summer it was reported that Marker was being sued by G3 and Marker had pulled the binding. I am buying some through shop form but the rep didn't know about the litigation. Any word on that, anybody?
 

karlo

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the skier in it reported (and not via some marketing bit) that he had no pre-release during the season on it:

Yes, but that's Eric Hjorleifson. 1) He is always right on top of his skis, no matter what. 2) He "tinkers" with his gear. Watch him working on his bindings. I'll bet he's got them to the point that it would take a bomb to release them.


Anyway, @elemmac, Kingpins ski great in resort. But, for durability, like 3-4 years in resort, of heavy skiing, I don't think so. So, Kingpin for BC that might take you through some resorts. For resort with some BC, particularly hardpack Eastern resorts, frame binding. Alas, yes, Kingpins may be hard to come by now that Marker has pulled them for now. Might be able to get last season's.
 
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Lauren

Lauren

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Earlier this summer it was reported that Marker was being sued by G3 and Marker had pulled the binding. I am buying some through shop form but the rep didn't know about the litigation. Any word on that, anybody?

I'm not really sure about the litigation, but Marker currently has them listed on their website, along with all of their retailers. If G3 actually has a case, it'd surprise me if Marker doesn't try to buy rights to the patent.
 

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