[maintenance tuning] Keeping the edges sharp in-between tune ups?

[Mendieta]

Hi all.

Complete tuning newbie here. I got easy apply quick wax from @SlideWright , and also a brush and synthetic cork (as recommended by @cantunamunch ). Love it. Now I can prep my skis before a trip, not as well as a pro, but much better than nothing. I use two chairs outside as my bench for now

That's how bad I am at this. My next task is to be able to keep edges sharp and smooth. I tried googling but it's all so new to me. To be clear, I am not looking to learn how to do a base grind and a full tune, I am not changing the edge angles. I want to keep them the way they are, say 1*/2* , but give them a pass with (a diamond? A file? What do you need for this?) whatever is needed, so that they stay sharp and the occasional chip by a rock gets rectified

So, what kind of tool do I need? Any good videos on how to apply it? Again, I am looking for something really basic.

Waxing? I am hoping the DPS Phantom thing lives up to its expectations and all my skis get treated for it, one less thing to worry

 

[davjr96]

A set of diamond stones is what you want, along with an edge guide. The solid aluminum edge guides are very popular http://www.racewax.com/racewax-hard-aluminum-racing-side-bevel-angle-file-guide/ but you can also get adjustable ones. If you get the solid ones you will also want some way to clamp the stone on them, see related products and the pictures. You can get a couple "grits" of diamond stones in a set such as http://www.racewax.com/all-3-grits-swix-diamond-stones-100mm-ta200e-400e-600e/ and start from coarse all the way to fine. I'll let someone with a little more experience tune in on technique but what I do is start with coarse and there comes a point when you can feel the stone doing a lot less work, takes some getting used to, and then move on to the next one. I'm sure there's an better technique which someone will post

 

[Mendieta]

The solid aluminum edge guides are very popular http://www.racewax.com/racewax-hard-aluminum-racing-side-bevel-angle-file-guide/ but you can also get adjustable ones.

I see, thanks much. So, and 88 solid guide would be for a 2* side angle. But then you would need another solid guide for the base side of the edge? I think I probably need the adjustable type. Hopefully you can do both base and sides, and also, hopefully you can figure what tune you have (there are four ski sets at home, I am not sure about all)

 

[davjr96]

I see, thanks much. So, and 88 solid guide would be for a 2* side angle. But then you would need another solid guide for the base side of the edge? I think I probably need the adjustable type. Hopefully you can do both base and sides, and also, hopefully you can figure what tune you have (there are four ski sets at home, I am not sure about all)

Yes an 88* is 2, there is another type of guide for the base side such as http://www.racewax.com/base-beast-bevel-angle-guide-tool/. I personally use an adjustable type for the side edge and the base guide I linked for the base edge. I touch the base edges a lot less than the side edges however, which is why I didn't link the guide originally. One more thing is always keep the stones wet, keep a cup of water next to you and soak them before running them along the edge. Lots of info on this page but it also has sharpening so it might be a little too much, worth a read at least. http://www.racewax.com/edge-tuning/

One way to figure out the tune besides a special measuring tool, it to run a sharpie along the edge, and if running the diamond stone in a guide removes all of the sharpie then it is correct, but if it only removes the top or bottom half you have the wrong angle guide.

 

[Mendieta]

Oh, so you need to buy base and side separately! There some interesting info here:

http://www.skituning101.com/2010/02/ski-tuning-101-presents.html

But a bit too much! I was hoping this would be simpler Truly appreciate all the help, @davjr96

 

[Magi]

Oh, so you need to buy base and side separately! There some interesting info here:

http://www.skituning101.com/2010/02/ski-tuning-101-presents.html

But a bit too much! I was hoping this would be simpler Truly appreciate all the help, @davjr96

Buy a 2(88) and/or a 3(87) degree Edge guide

(Buy the one you ski your side edges at - buy both if you ski different skis at different angles)
If you buy a side angle guide that doesn't have a built in clamp (like the side of the beast), buy a clamp if you don't already have one.​

Buy a set of Diaface Moonflex Diamond stones

(The brand is important here. Other brands of diamond stones I've tried wear out way too fast, these cost about 1.5x more but last 3-5 times longer.)
100 and 400 grit would be fine. I have a 100,200,400,600, 1500 set.
I prefer the longer stones, as they fit better in my bevel guides.​

Buy a 1 degree Base Guide

Optional - buy this after you need it

Sidewall removal tool / sidewall planer (removes sidewall so that your diamond stone can cut metal, not plastic)
Isopropyl alcohol, as diamond stone cleaner/lube
​

 

[KingGrump]

@Mendieta , welcome to the tuning club.

Don't have to go for broke for your Head Rally with a 1/2 tune.
@Doug Briggs had a great thread on free hand base edge touch up and repair.
You won't need a base bevel guide with that post. $$ saved.

For the side edge. Get an 88˚ fixed guide.
I like the SVST unit with the stainless steel plate. You can spend a bit less with an SVST hardened aluminum unit.
The stainless steel plate will really help keep the guide from fouling when you graduate to actual filing later on. Money well spend at this point in time.

You are not racing, so side edge polishing would just be an overkill. Don't really need an entire set of diamond stones.
Get a 200 grit (100 mm long, red) Moonflex diamond stone and you are all set.
50/50 solution of isopropyl alcohol and water to lube and keep the stone clean.
A small brass brush from Home Depot to keep the stone clean. This can also be used to clean files when you start filing.

Good luck.

 

[KingGrump]

Oh, yeah, don't forget the spring clamp.

 

[ScotsSkier]

@Mendieta
Good advice from King Grump, pretty much exactly what I would have suggested. (Although personally I actually prefer the hardened Aluminum guides!) And definitely DON'T touch the base unless it actually gets damaged. i would also get a cheap coarse stone to use first on any area of the edge where you sustain rock damage/burrs rather than destroying the more expensive diamond stone.

If you like the current tune, stick with the 88, my own view is that 87 always works better and i use that on all my skis other than slaloms that are set at 86. Again, soem different schools of thought on this so keep it simple and stick with 88 if you like that.

 

[Jacques]

Hi all.

Complete tuning newbie here. I got easy apply quick wax from @SlideWright , and also a brush and synthetic cork (as recommended by @cantunamunch ). Love it. Now I can prep my skis before a trip, not as well as a pro, but much better than nothing. I use two chairs outside as my bench for now

That's how bad I am at this. My next task is to be able to keep edges sharp and smooth. I tried googling but it's all so new to me. To be clear, I am not looking to learn how to do a base grind and a full tune, I am not changing the edge angles. I want to keep them the way they are, say 1*/2* , but give them a pass with (a diamond? A file? What do you need for this?) whatever is needed, so that they stay sharp and the occasional chip by a rock gets rectified

So, what kind of tool do I need? Any good videos on how to apply it? Again, I am looking for something really basic.

Waxing? I am hoping the DPS Phantom thing lives up to its expectations and all my skis get treated for it, one less thing to worry

Nice. You are getting started. We all start from the same square. You probably have seen a bunch of these, but maybe scan through a few to help you out.
https://forum.pugski.com/threads/miscellaneous-tuning-videos-i-have-made.5944/
Plus more at the channel by searching the channel for tuning, waxing etc.
Best to you.

 

[Pumba]

@Mendieta , welcome to the tuning club.

Don't have to go for broke for your Head Rally with a 1/2 tune.
@Doug Briggs had a great thread on free hand base edge touch up and repair.
You won't need a base bevel guide with that post. $$ saved.

For the side edge. Get an 88˚ fixed guide.
I like the SVST unit with the stainless steel plate. You can spend a bit less with an SVST hardened aluminum unit.
The stainless steel plate will really help keep the guide from fouling when you graduate to actual filing later on. Money well spend at this point in time.

You are not racing, so side edge polishing would just be an overkill. Don't really need an entire set of diamond stones.
Get a 200 grit (100 mm long, red) Moonflex diamond stone and you are all set.
50/50 solution of isopropyl alcohol and water to lube and keep the stone clean.
A small brass brush from Home Depot to keep the stone clean. This can also be used to clean files when you start filing.

Good luck.

@Mendieta , just come on over to nyc and @KingGrump will give you a one on one tutorial...just got back from his place where he took a look at my skis and gave me tips on all of the above. I took some notes, but we will see how much stuck. I learned how to trim sidewall, the difference between treating edges with diamond stone v bastardized file ( you know you are filing well when the “scratchings” are long threads that are actually springs/coils, listen to your edges as you tune, must apply base prep wax before waxing, fiberlene treatment after wax....pull or push wax away with outside edge of scraper .....the list goes on. My head is spinning....but once this is all done a few times, he says you develop instinctual feelings for it...

Going to the store tomorrow to get a massive drop cloth, scraper, and brushes. We’ll see how this goes in s small ny apt...
..good luck and hope to share novice tuning issues with you...mostly I’m afraid of f-Ing up my skis by accident!

And big thanks @KingGrump !!!

K

 

[Sibhusky]

I've got a fixed guide that accepts shim plates to change to another angle. More than one brand has this. You might want to go with those. Buy a 88, then a 1° shim. That way as you change it's not about buying a while new plate, but it's a fixed guide.

 

[Wilhelmson]

88 degree file guide and a swix universal diamond stone will set you back about $40.

 

[Plai]

@Mendieta my routine is just to use a course stone to get rid of burrs and rough spots. My thinking is that my freehand isn't enough to change the angle of the edges. This is usually enough before waxing.

I've only used my diamond stones maybe a couple of times in 4-5 years to sharpen things up. But, I'm a school holiday warrior and only get a dozen days in a season.

Good luck on your decision(s).

 

[KevinF]

As others have said, the hardest part about tuning is developing a "feel" for it. You'll hear when your diamond stones aren't doing anything (i.e., you can stop).

If your stones are clamped into a guide and your skis are fairly stable, then you're really not going to do much damage. (Files... now there you can do some damage in a big hurry). Work slow, relax, etc. The first time or two I tuned my skis, I was convinced that I was going to ruin something, but after four or five years of doing this, I have yet to mess up in any kind of spectacular fashion.

There's a million tuning videos out on YouTube you can watch. I've watched several, but I largely received my education when Chris Geib showed me how to do it. As @Pumba mentioned, if you can find a friend to show you the basics (or take a tuning class at a local shop), then that's probably the best way to learn. Everybody has their own variations on "correct" tuning technique, but the basics are always the same. Variations come into play when you're considering just how "perfect" your edges need to be. My race skis get more love on the tuning bench then my all mountain skis do.

 

[Doug Briggs]

A coarse stone used freehand can adjust the bevels unless you are careful. I don't emphasize this, but you only want to course stone the innies and outies. Don't try to maintain edge sharpness freehand with a coarse stone. If you just want to maintain the edges, my thread (https://forum.pugski.com/threads/ba...-diamond-stone-to-remove-burrs.214/#post-3429) will help you with that. To maintain sharpness and bevels requires removing more than just burrs and requires a guide.

I do not recommend doing anything to the base bevel except for carefully removing burrs. The base bevel is the easiest to mess up and the one that will cause the most degradation of performance if done poorly. It also relies on the integrity of the base being flat to provide the desired base bevel. Many skis get worn so they are base high. If you use a base-high ski's base as a reference (as all base bevel guides I'm familiar with do) you will not be putting on the bevel you think you are.

 

[James]

To save money, time and learn from the mistakes we've all made...
Don't buy any adjustable guide, nor one that does base and side edge with the same device.

I do actually recommend the "Side of Beast Pro" - aluminum with stainless wear plate. Now that you can get a 1, 2 or 3 deg angle plate that screws in. You can swap out to change angles.
Do not get the cheaper all plastic version of that tool if they still make it.

Advantage of the Side of Beast?- no spring clamps. Multiple angles with one device. Disadvantage? It somewhat limits how the stone/file goes in due to the screw hold down knob being in place. Also, it's easier to have two guides or more frankly, instead of swapping plates. But you're not there yet. I have two Sides of Beast, both at 3 deg. I use the 2 deg plates for children and the innocent.

Seriously, stop this 2 deg thing. Just go 3. Don't worry. Contrary to what some will have you believe, your legs won't be ripped off by a three degree side edge.

Since your likely only using one guide, and the same one, does it matter if the angle is not exactly 3 deg to 1/100 th of a degree? No.

You absolutely need a sidewall plane. Trying to file sidewall will just make you think filing doesn't work and you'll give up.

A sharpie is fairly essential for starting out. Cover the edge to seewhat's happening when filing.

Google?? Better to ask here for recommended vids. Otherwise you'll end up with some kid who has a million hits because it's funny or stupid. Keep in mind there's a difference between working method and what's being accomplished. Confusing the two leads to voodoo beliefs which are all over the ski tuning world. (Often they start out, " a guy I know who tuned on the World Cup...")

A tooth brush and water. Makes it easy to clean the diamond stones. With the tooth brush you can do it while held in the Beast.

Taping the bindings on the side isn't a bad idea. I almost never do it. But you'll be amazed at how much steel wool essentially you generate. And wax shavings. I usually blow these out with breath while holding the ski. Compressed Air works but can also make it worse if you're not careful.

It's pretty essential to hit the edge with a diamond 1st. If you never hit anything hard you might be able to skip it. Now, if you stoned it once you might need to do spots again if the hardening goes below what you just filed. You'll hear or feel it.

Also, if you do have a burr on the side, there's likely a burr on the base edge too. To get rid of that... usually I use like a 400 grit stone. Maybe a 200 or 100 if truly huge. You should just go 400. Do not try to recreate some base bevel angle! Just hold it flat against the base. You're just getting rid of the burr.

If there's lots of wax on the base, brush (or scrape 1st if needed), wax off surface. Just so the stone doesn't clog with wax. Don't sweat this, I'm talking lots of wax present not the tiny bit left after a day skiing.

Oh yeah, brush or wipe the base before starting. Esp in Spring. Lots of dirt probably there.

If you've done a bunch of filing, I generally go over the base with either a fine stone - ceramic, arkansas, etc, or usually, because it's sitting there,- a 400 grit diamond stone. Lightly. Again, holding flat! Just to make sure there's no hanging burr. I do this with the ski held vertically like for filing. Doesn't have to be. It comes down to working method.

Thin gloves - nitrile disposable, swix tuning gloves etc, aren't a bad idea. But try without 1st. There's just a lot of metal that tends to work its way into skin. Plus fiberglass particles etc.

Oh yeah, now that you're tuning... Notice the footrests on the chairlifts. Is there rubber present?? More edges are ruined by sitting on a chair than rocks I bet. Esp for those 2 degree folks, who go through life thinking their edges are unstopable, like a diamond axe.

And you use ski straps right? Two is fine. Racers always use 3 or more, but for rec skiing 2 is perfectly adequate. ( Don't ask me what to do with highly rockered potato chip skis. Shroud of Turin??) Unstrapped skis bouncing in a car, pickup bed or roof box...might as well use a multi guide and a 1deg side edge.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I have two points of disagreement with @James .

A 3* bevel is not a necessity. Unless you are racing, skiing on ice or trying to carve every single turn, 2* can be just fine.

A sidewall planer can end up tearing up your sidewall as easily as creating a nice one with relief for the file. Use with care. I've used them and had mixed success. Let a pro do it for you and save the $ on a sidewall planer. Properly done, you only need to plane your ski's sidewalls once: when they are new. Once planed they should be good to go for a good long while.

I concur wholeheartedly with the rest of @James post.

 

[Mendieta]

I've got a fixed guide that accepts shim plates to change to another angle. More than one brand has this. You might want to go with those. Buy a 88, then a 1° shim. That way as you change it's not about buying a while new plate, but it's a fixed guide.

Nice, would you have any links to relevant guides/shim plates? Thanks much!

 

[Sibhusky]

Mine is SVST. http://svst.com/Shop/SVST-Side-Edge-Bevelers/