General Lessons learned from an incident

[Tricia]

The news story about an avalanche near Imp Peak is sad, due to the fatality but more than anything I'm looking at the information provided with an eagerness to learn and share.
This was an experienced climber and mountaineer, but like most of these cases, caught off guard.

This is the incident report



This photo is fascinating to me, as the layers are detailed.
This area received one foot of snow since October 1st, which was on top of 3-4 feet of dense snow that fell since September 15th. The avalanche was a hard slab of wind-drifted snow that collapsed on a layer of soft old snow underneath, and slid on the old snow from late September

Without bashing the people who's lives were lost, what can we learn from this?

 

[Nobody]

Which kind of equipment did the party had? I mean were they on an AT tour? Beacons, probes Airbag Back packs? The report does not say. Were they (especially the survivor) trained and acquainted with the safety equipment they had? How was the planning done (from the report :"the avalanche released was 38-45° steep with a north-northeast aspect" At this time of the year to climb a 38-45 deg steep slope? Did they run the snow pack examination (something that is often skipped, alas), studied the snow bulletins (if available) ? What time of the day it happened?
I usually tend to hire a guide but for the simplest tours. But even then, on the simplest tours, one could end up taking unnecessary risks for a number of seemingly totally unrelated and innocent reasons...one day I'll tell the story how I ended up climbing a saddle, giving access to a couloir I wanted to ski, at 13.30 one sunny spring day, swearing at myself for the stupidity of it. Or when, at 14 y.o. I followed my mum down the Mont-Blanc classic route in a snowstorm, without a guide, only the two of us...So there are a number of reasons, mistakes to be clear, that when taken singularly are totally un-harmful but when summed up, can potentially lead into very dangerous situation and we come home simply because it wasn't our day...or do not because...
My condolences to the victim's family and beloved ones. I also feel sorry for the survivor, he'll be forever taunted by a re-run of the events concatenation and wonder, forever, if he could have avoided it.

 

[SBrown]

Well, this story went from bad to worse. Both are fairly young but acclaimed mountaineers; the female died in the avalanche, her male partner killed himself the next day.

Hard to say what there is to learn quite yet.

 

[fatbob]

Thanks for flagging it but the only lesson learned is that attempting to armchair QB these things is unhelpful at best and insenistive at worst. Sorry that what appear to be 2 stellar young people lost their lives.

 

[SBrown]

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/10/hayden-kennedy-renowned-alpinist-obituary/

 

[Rio]

Ugh. Sort of speechless after reading this.

https://www.bozemandailychronicle.c...ign=blox&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

 

[RuleMiHa]

Thanks for flagging it but the only lesson learned is that attempting to armchair QB these things is unhelpful at best and insenistive at worst. Sorry that what appear to be 2 stellar young people lost their lives.

I find it disturbing to take this view. There's always something to be learned. It's easier to tsk & sigh but an event debrief is a well respected way to prevent future incidents. If people hadn't taken the time to do this in the past we'd never know what we know now.

Every month in Scuba Diving Magazine they discuss an incident, often deadly. Names and locations are removed to protect the innocent. I think that is awesome and it gives information that maybe you wouldn't have considered. For instance simple things like mixing cold medicines have been implicated in some of these deadly incidents.

We can be respectful of the dead (because it's the right thing to do) and still learn from their actions. There may be something simple to be learned that might save lives, but only if we shine a light on these things instead of sweeping them under the rug.

 

[Magi]

Thanks for flagging it but the only lesson learned is that attempting to armchair QB these things is unhelpful at best and insenistive at worst. Sorry that what appear to be 2 stellar young people lost their lives.

My understanding us that "armchair quarterbacking" Backcountry incidents is part and parcel of the safety culture surrounding avalanche preparedness, avoidance, and safety.

While it's perfectly fair to say that we don't have enough evidence to effectively review the incident and spot what could be done better, incidents (and near incidents) are constantly being analyzed to add to the body of knowledge that leads to effective travel through avalanche terrain.

It's sad that two people are dead. I think it's worse to declare analysing this incident forbidden lest it offend those dead persons.

Experience is learning from your mistakes - wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others.



WRT the snow pit photo (and using my limited training in avalanche snow science) that looks like a textbook avalanche waiting to happen, especially on a 38-45 degree slope. Like - you could not pay me to be on it unless the Rutschblock tests came back with insane stability (which I doubt), and even then...

 

[Tony S]

That rots. Sorry, Rio.

 

[jmeb]

My vibes to all their family and friends. Lord knows those two touched so many people around the world. I hope everyone can make it through this dark time.

Some info slowly creeping in regarding what happened. One horrible tidbit that I just saw is that apparently her beacon was off and in her pack. https://www.outsideonline.com/2248691/climber-hayden-kennedy-dies

Please please please people -- do not admonish this as a "stupid" mistake that could've been prevented. That doesn't help anyone learn from this tragedy. Instead, use it as a reminder that we are all human, that even those with 10x more experience than most of us will ever have, make mistakes. HK and IP were accomplished in a wide variety of mountain travel disciplines. He was among the leading alpinists in the world. And both were thoughtful, careful individuals. They made a mistake, just like we can. If you haven't made a mistake that can get you killed in the backcountry, you haven't been doing it very long or you didn't recognize it. Most of us are just fortunate enough to live to learn from our experience.

A horrible tragedy.

 

[oldschoolskier]

In all fairness, there are several lessons, which we must accept when we play these games.

1. We are not indestructible.
2. Even prepared and experienced there is a risk.
3. The better and more experienced we are the greater the consequence, as we step further.
4. Finally, someone will pay, maybe you, maybe me but someone will pay big at some point.

If you can’t accept (understand) these simple lessons, don’t play this game.

 

[Mike King]

Well, I know next to nothing, but it strikes me that October is a pretty bad month to be climbing a couloir that is 38-42 degrees with a bunch of new and early season snow in it. At least in the Intermountain region. No consolidation, lots of facets.

RIP.

Mike

 

[Monique]

I can't think of any good words. This is awful.

 

[KingGrump]

I believe @Tricia already have a thread up for this.

https://forum.pugski.com/threads/lessons-learned-from-an-incident.6440/#post-150544

 

[jmeb]

@Tricia -- maybe a merge is in order?

 

[Mendieta]

@Tricia -- maybe a merge is in order?

Thanks much, @jmeb and @KingGrump . I just merged them here.

 

[jmeb]

One reason some have an aversion to taking lessons from this right now is that this is brand new news, and these two had major impacts on a lot of people who ski and climb. I would be surprised if there aren't a few on here who know one of them IRL, even if HK was a social media recluse. Sometimes the crazy ski and climb world is smaller than we realize. People want a bit of time to grieve before figuring out what lessons to take beyond: always love your loved ones as best as you can.

For those of us who are fortunate enough not to be directly impacted by this tragic event -- my immediate attention is drawn to the following idea: At the close of last season I felt I had my systems dialed. Partners and I were pretty attuned to each other, fitness, objectives, and had a lot of time on the snowpack. We had our systems engrained so that they didn't require a lot of extra thought. Going into this season, I need to remember to reset all that, re-drill my systems so they are tight -- whether that means pre-trip planning, at the trailhead gear and beacon check protocols, or en route decision making in a group. All of those need conscious attention at the beginning of a season. Additional it's a firm reminder that before I step foot on backcountry snow this year it will already have a relatively long, and likely easy to affect, history that I am unfamiliar with.

The first few outings this season I'm unlikely to really ski much. But a day of being in the snow, practicing beacon searches, doing a rescue protocol, and skinning around to dig a few pits of various aspects is still good fun.

 

[Tricia]

Some info slowly creeping in regarding what happened. One horrible tidbit that I just saw is that apparently her beacon was off and in her pack. https://www.outsideonline.com/2248691/climber-hayden-kennedy-dies

When I started the thread about this incident, there were a handful of stories with varying details. I chose not to post the names or details until it was verified. Thank you for that link.
I found that the publishing of his essay is chilling,
Snip from Kennedy's Essay:

“Over the last few years, as I’ve watched too many friends go to the mountains only to never return, I’ve realized something painful,” he wrote. “It’s not just the memorable summits and crux moves that are fleeting. Friends and climbing partners are fleeting, too. This is the painful reality of our sport, and I’m unsure what to make of it. Climbing is either a beautiful gift or a curse…I see both light and dark in climbing. Through this recognition, true learning begins and a full awareness of the brevity of our time becomes clearer. It’s difficult to accept the fact that we cannot control everything in life, yet we still try, and maybe our path changes to something totally unexpected…Maybe the most genuine aspects of any tale are the sputterings and the silences, the acknowledgments of failure, the glimmerings in the dark. And maybe one genuine reason to try to share our stories about days we actually send something, when we are alive and at the height of our powers, is to try to bring back what’s past, lost, or gone. Perhaps by doing so, we might find some light illuminating a new way forward.”

I believe @Tricia already have a thread up for this.

@Tricia -- maybe a merge is in order?

@Mendieta thanks for getting this.

 

[fatbob]

It's sad that two people are dead. I think it's worse to declare analysing this incident forbidden lest it offend those dead persons.

Experience is learning from your mistakes - wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others.

...

I'm not saying you should never discuss it but I think it is better to let some dust settle and read a full measured report from the pros that attended before being eager to pick over the details. It's all too easy to make snap comments about how one would never do something and achieve both virtue signalling and victim blaming in one casual comment. We all screw up from time to time in all sorts of things. Most of the time we are lucky and it doesn't cost us our lives. People have different risk reward mechanisms.

I just don't think you can start a thread on something like this which is current or breaking news and hope to have a meaningful debate while ensuring it wouldn't be hurtful to those directly impacted. Especially in this case where it appears the immediate survivor tragically acted on his own conclusions.

 

[Magi]

I'm not saying you should never discuss it but I think it is better to let some dust settle and read a full measured report from the pros that attended before being eager to pick over the details. ...

Fair point.