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Jump turns be flex to release

Rod9301

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This is a bit of a theoretical question, it doesn't prevent me from skiing, but curious.

When I ski in terrain up to 45 degrees and not narrow, I flex to release, and my skis pretty much stay on the snow.

When I ski something narrow and steep, the flex to release allows me to pick up to much speed. Undesirable in firm conditions.

So I resort to jump turns, pedal saute in French.
I transfer the weight to my uphill ski, push off it, retract the feet up and back, and pivot in the air, land with the skis at about a 45 degrees angle to direction of the slope, and finish the turn.

Pretty much the turn that everyone uses in steep and narrow and firm conditions.


I'm trying to reconcile these two types of turns.

Any ideas?
 

karlo

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What do you mean reconcile? They're different.
 
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Rod9301

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Maybe, they both involve some degree of unweighing the skis by a similar retraction.

Also, since I flex to release in most conditions, I'm wondering if I can change my jump turn to be more similar.
 

karlo

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If you're jumping in one type of turn, and not another, I think it's pretty hard for the two to be similar. However, one can do jump turns differently. I posted these two videos in another thread.


and note GM's hop turns at 1:02 here


So, if you mean, when doing a jump turn, can your skis be closer to the snow, or even in contact, the answer is yes. I kept looking at GM's turns over and over and over and over, wondering how she did that. I finally asked someone who would know. She's doing a hop turn, but oh so smoothly.

Not sure if this is helpful.
 

crgildart

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There is definitely a spectrum of levels between full on hop turns and banking carved turns. It revolves around the varying degree of unweighting between none to almost bringing the skis off the snow with lots of smearing to bringing one ski off the snow to full on bringing both skis off the snow.
 
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Rod9301

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If you're jumping in one type of turn, and not another, I think it's pretty hard for the two to be similar. However, one can do jump turns differently. I posted these two videos in another thread.


and note GM's hop turns at 1:02 here


So, if you mean, when doing a jump turn, can your skis be closer to the snow, or even in contact, the answer is yes. I kept looking at GM's turns over and over and over and over, wondering how she did that. I finally asked someone who would know. She's doing a hop turn, but oh so smoothly.

Not sure if this is helpful.
Those are the jump turns I do, but they are in powder so they may look different.
 

LiquidFeet

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I kept looking at GM's turns over and over and over and over, wondering how she did that. I finally asked someone who would know. She's doing a hop turn, but oh so smoothly..

hop turn, exceptionally smooth, on steeps .jpg
 
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Rod9301

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Not sure what the foot squirt is, I see her feet pulled back all the time, except for the last picture, where she allows the uphill ski to move to much forward.

In powder, it doesn't matter so much, but in firm, this will cause her to be back at the beginning of the next turn.
Of course, could be just a mistake in this particular turn, and also, it's not too steep there.

I noticed that at the end of the turn she's facing the direction of the skis, but a fraction of a sending later, she faces downhill, roughly 90 degrees firm the skis.
Again, maybe it's because in powder she doesn't feel the need to counter at the end, it maybe it's an error that she always does.

Powder does let you get away with a lot of stuff that might kill you in firm.
I've skied with her in France, and in firm conditions, she doesn't rotate her upper body to start the turn, just the legs underneath.
 

razie

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It is a very interesting conundrum, isn't it? Not easy to answer, especially since few are on the verge of having discovered this problem... ;)

The physics behind it is that body rotation will allow a very short corridor, as you leverage the body's mass to pivot the skis, within almost their length, using them to just brake from turn to turn. That is the basic definition of "counter-rotation" and...well, surviving...

When you push up, you also give yourself a bit more time (in exchange for a loss of control) and in a narrow/steep place that gives you needed extra speed control, as you noticed.

The principle is a simple one: when you're in over your head, you do what you gotta do... so some would argue that in such conditions: very steep and narrow and variable conditions, technique goes out the window, but not quite. Mastery of technique still dictates when "you're in over your head" and also what your options are.

Are you in over your head on a green? On a blue? On a black? On an icy double black (yiikes!!). On a steep and narrow icy chute? :eek:

The other thing to note, at least for me: as you improve your flexing, it interferes with speed control, until you adjust your timing. I am in the process of working on my flexing and timing and I am acutely aware of this. I haven't seen you ski, so I don't know how far along you are in this ski improvement journey, but worth keep in mind.

... so before you jump to the conclusion, like many do, that we should all buy fat skis, hop and pivot them on each and every turn, skidding our way down the hill from braking point to braking point, consider that this is most definitetly not why I get out of bed in the morning...

p.s. I know you don't, but the point needs... uhh... pointing?

that's my 2c on this... I will defer to the fortunates, like @markojp on this though, whom have both the technique and the opportunity to spend lots of time there... where the fun is squared! :beercheer:

p.s.2. you better keep your feet underneath you in these situations...
 
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karlo

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@LiquidFeet, woah, nice! You are amazing. Thank you!

Am I right that her tips have made contact with the snow at (6)?

Extending the uphill leg at (4) creates the hop?

Why is this called a "squirt"? I think of a squirt as a sudden release of resistance against pressure that causes something to "shoot" out.

Powder does let you get away with a lot of stuff that might kill you in firm.

Have you seen videos of this type of thing in firm? The firmer the better. Doesn't have to be GM.
 

LiquidFeet

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Foot squirt = during transition, the skier allows feet to move ahead of body/CoM in the direction the skis are pointing. The skier may actively squirt the feet out ahead, as in Monego's turns.

There are two "forward-aft" directions at transition; one is fore-aft in the direction the skis are pointing; the other is fore-aft in the direction of the hill (in which skier is "forward" if CoM is farther down the hill than the BoS/feet) (aka skier is "upside down" on the hill).

With foot squirt, the skier will be "aft" in the direction the skis are pointing, but may be "forward" down-the-hill at the same time. This is not a problem, because the feet will catch up with the body as they come around. This strategy is applicable in "reaching" short radius turns, as well as here in these very smooth and odd-looking hop turns that we are discussing.

Look at the tracks in the snow as she gets to the bottom of the chute; you can see that she hops the skis around in the air, then lands with skis pointed across the hill. Each landing up the hill behind her is visible as an impression in the snow.
 
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Rod9301

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foot squirt = during transition, the skier allows feet to move ahead of body/CoM in the direction the skis are pointing; the feet squirt ahead

There are two "forward-aft" directions at transition; one is fore-aft in the direction the skis are pointing; the other is fore-aft in the direction of the hill (in which skier is "forward" if CoM is farther down the hill than the BoS/feet).

With foot squirt, the skier will be "aft" in the direction the skis are pointing, but may be "forward" down-the-hill at the same time. The feet will catch up with the body as they come around. Applicable in short turns, and here in these very smooth and odd-looking hop turns that we are discussing.

Look at the tracks in the snow as she gets to the bottom of the chute; you can see that she hops the skis around in the air, then lands with skis pointed across the hill. Each landing behind her is visible as an impression in the snow.
Ok, I understand the squirt. However it's a really bad idea to be on the tails of your skis in steep terrain at the beginning of the turn. This will put you in the back seat in the air or when you land.

Personally, I pull the uphill ski strongly back before I push off it, then I keep pulling the same ski back in the air, and when I land ( land on the same ski I push off from).

Pulling the ski strongly back in the air has the advantage of lifting the tail towards your butt, so the tails clear the slope instead of slamming into it.

If you slam your tails in the slope while you're in the air will cause you to fall forward, and probably tumble, and you can not recover or stop from such a fall.
 
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Rod9301

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@LiquidFeet, woah, nice! You are amazing. Thank you!

Am I right that her tips have made contact with the snow at (6)?

Extending the uphill leg at (4) creates the hop?

Why is this called a "squirt"? I think of a squirt as a sudden release of resistance against pressure that causes something to "shoot" out.



Have you seen videos of this type of thing in firm? The firmer the better. Doesn't have to be GM.
YouTube, search for steep skiing or ski de pente raise.

Plenty of videos.
 

Wilhelmson

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When jump turning in icy conditions it's hard to avoid a backseat skid if you aren't already transferring into the next turn (unless you're purposefully dropping onto a shelf).

If the trail is wide and you can see the line it's not so bad to flex into a 45 degree turn because the worst case is a fall. When the trail is narrow with obstacles and you can't see the next line the consequences of failure are more severe so I take it on a case by case basis, but this is something I need to work on.
 

LiquidFeet

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Thanks, Rod.
So here are some hop turns (OK, pedal turns) on steep, hard snow, shown from different camera views.
I wish there were a drone shot from above, just so these could be contrasted with Monego's turns.

There is some serious speed control going on in all these videos we are discussing.
 
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karlo

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squirt = during transition, the skier allows feet to move ahead of body/CoM in the direction the skis are pointing.

the feet will catch up with the body as they come around

Got it. So, the squirt is like jetting the skis in moguls, but the forces causing it are different, right?

here are some hop turns (OK, pedal turns) on steep, hard snow,

I asked if there was a video of this turn on firmer snow. Yup, that's firmer. :)

Thank you!
 
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Rod9301

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Remy was a fantastic skier, dead now for a few years, avalanche in the Himalayas, he was there with Glen plake.


By the way, the squirt it's dangerous to try on steeps, I think
 

LiquidFeet

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Maybe. Monego is in a steep chute, but there's definitely soft snow in there. So....

Are you sure Remy's not shooting the feet out to the side as he pivots them,
then bringing them back up under him as he lands? It's almost impossible to
determine the foot squirt movement if the camera is not up in the air above the skier,
and it isn't in that video I linked.

Does anyone know the advantages of using the squirt in hop turns
when to use it and when not ... from personal experience (which I don't have) ...
when skiing down something steep and narrow?
 
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karlo

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Does anyone know the advantages of using the squirt in hop turns

I know @Rod9301 has a different view of GM's turn as not quite right, especially for something firmer and more consequential, but I feel very comfortable with GM's turns, which is why I want to learn to do it.

To me, having the skis outside and the feet back, results in what I think are tips in contact with snow at (6). And, both tips are in contact, meaning I think she is using, at the very first, the inside tip edge of her inside ski to essentially carve a turn. If that is the case, then advantage-GM. She is expending far less energy to descend.

Imagine not doing this; skis under body First, pivoting the skis around will take a lot of work, I think, because one would not be able to take advantage of an untwisting of the body, as I think she is. Then, upon landing, not much carving capability; basically a hockey stop (I think). Hockey stop, after hockey stop, down a steep face. I'd get kind of tired, even if I were not carrying a 20-lb plus pack.

I haven't done it either. I'm thinking about this by extrapolating experience and looking at the photos you provided.
 

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