Internal cues for improper alignment

[BornToSki683]

Exactly Razie. As I see it that is the main problem with trying to assess by feel. Someone mentioned earlier that the skis could chatter for example but there are various things we could be doing as skiers to cause that which have nothing to do with alignment.

On the other hand, Very good skiers are actually quite adept at making compensating movements to prevent things like chattering from happening, but the manifestiations of those compensations will show up on video if you know what to look for, and those compensations could be causing other subtle problems or causing them to work too hard or limiting them in some way they can’t even feel they are missing. There can be unintended consequences.

 

[Lorenzzo]

Don't want to derail an interesting discussion but this was raised in the original post....how many layers of Gorilla Tape equate to 1 degree? 6?

 

[BornToSki683]

One general comment I will say about observation, if your knee is too far inside ( ie knock kneed ) then you can see or feel two fundamental things happen: the skier will tend to have weight from the body pushing down on the inside edge of the ski, which can cause it to oversteer. Yet at the same time while trying to create edge angles the skier will have to move the knee more then optimal to get the ski higher on edge. Those are almost in a way kind of opposite results depending on the situation.

For skiers where the knee is too far out ( bow legged ) it’s the other way around, pressure coming down the leg will tend to push that outside edge down and cause the ski to understeer, yet they will create bigger edge angles almost too easily.

But for example, a bow legged skier may have trouble getting the first early engagement of the BTE at turn init, so they will compensate in some way like pushing their tail out a little bit to find the edge, or make an extra big movement of the CoM in some way to get to a huge edge angle sooner.

 

[BornToSki683]

Don't want to derail an interesting discussion but this was raised in the original post....how many layers of Gorilla Tape equate to 1 degree? 6?

As I recall one strip of gorilla tape is about 3/4 of a degree but the best thing is to bring the stack of tape to your boot guy and say “this much”

 

[BornToSki683]

Also want to say something else about using duct tape, make sure you put it on both the front AND heel binding plates. If you only put it under the toes then you will also be changing your ramp angle at the same time

 

[Don Duran]

Interesting read. I suppose as proprioceptic awareness develops internal cues make more sense but I still go back to a couple old alignment activity. Blind straight runs and side slips. Obviously the blind run takes away visual cues and we have to rely on receptors in the feet and inner ear. Not to mention a partner for safety's sake. Feeling a ski mis-behave should tell you something is wonky. Sighted sideslips on very very shallow terrain are next and they force us to work a near flat ski. Trouble slipping, or trouble maintaining a pure fall line line again tells us something is wonky. Exactly what is causing the wonky feeling is a case by case correction thing better left to the skier and their bootfitter. DIY video may be an alternative but without binocular vision the camera is a poor substitute for a trained observer coaching you through those exercises. Video to convince you they saw what they saw speaks volumes about not trusting their eye but in many cases after a few reps you should see that trust grow and video becomes much less important.
Eventually leading to soloing (just going skiing) and relying on our senses to make all those micro adjustments.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The way I check for fore-aft alignment is by doing flat 360s on low pitch terrain at a snail's pace.
This fore-aft check only works if the upper body is kept out of the equation.
Upper body needs to stay absolutely quiet and square to skis; no twisting to look ahead, no swinging the arms.
The spin needs to be done with the feet/legs only.

Lateral control needs to work to keep the skis flat enough to spin without catching an edge.
But fore-aft balance also has to be absolutely spot on.
The goal is to get all the way around on flat skis multiple times in both directions without any left-right travel.
Going straight down the fall line spinning is the goal.
When it works, precise fore-aft balance over the sweet spot is happening.

The 360 flat spins don't reveal how lateral alignment will work when the forces from faster turns are stronger.
In such turns the legs bend and unbend, and the skis are held on edge under load.
These may enact some weird variances in leg/foot behavior that don't show up with slow, quiet turns - if the skier's anatomy is not ideal for skiing.
Hip anteversion/retroversion, tibial torsion and/or varum, and forefoot varus/valgus can each produce alignment issues that don't simply show up in the shop or during those slow upright spins.

As far as I know, these issues need video to confirm, because we (I) can't feel it. Maybe we can teach ourselves to feel it, but maybe not.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Ah - and it also depends a lot on our various focus on biomechanics and technique, as you detected something else and based on your model, deduced the change to make - and this is one I did not understand, but would like to - it was never explained to me properly I guess, i.e. testing just now, my femurs seem to rotate equally well with the feet 2 inches apart and 5 inches apart. How wide is good for you and how narrow would be too narrow? Is this based on the hip height in transition?

So it can loop back to technique I won't take it there - just looking to understand this relationship.

thanks

My guess is nine inches. Plus or minus three. Still narrow enough that people keep telling me I should have a wider stance!

 

[BornToSki683]

My guess is nine inches. Plus or minus three. Still narrow enough that people keep telling me I should have a wider stance!

Bah, as long as you can see a sliver of daylight between your legs or feel airspace, you have plenty.

 

[john petersen]

There are far less proprioceptors in the hip area than there are in the feet and hands, ect.... Ive been exploring how to wake that area up and see if I can "feel" more stuff happening, so the cues and ideas here are, in a way, a guiding light for me. (at least a good starting point to continue exploration of all types of awareness)

good stuff

JP

 

[cantunamunch]

30-odd posts and not a single mention of azimuth plane alignment (or cues therefor), barely 10 years after we stopped talking about, sorry, raving about abducted boot clogs. Interesting.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Abduction isn't really something we can change though, is it? My new boots have hardware that let's you turn the cuff in that plane. I haven't tried it yet, but I am going to just to see what it feels like.

 

[cantunamunch]

Abduction isn't really something we can change though, is it? My new boots have hardware that let's you turn the cuff in that plane. I haven't tried it yet, but I am going to just to see what it feels like.

It is the plane in which I was by far the most sensitive to footbed errors, oddly enough. Imagine being fine on the boot floor, gliding and tracking straight. Then, the moment a footbed goes in, having your right leg take off for the wilderness. (Not to mention the inevitable twintip tail crossing, ugh).

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I think I was going the wrong direction with ramp. Yesterday I felt like I was really loose in the cuff and felt like maybe adding another 2mm under the heel could help. So I made that change and then today I brought two other pairs so I could try 3 different levels of ramp. 5mm toes down, 1mm toes down and 1mm toes up. 5mm down was definitely not where I should be. I felt like I really had my hips following my skis and pushing the tails I could barely make a short turn at all. Switching back to the flatter setup was much better.

 

[RuleMiHa]

There are far less proprioceptors in the hip area than there are in the feet and hands, ect.... Ive been exploring how to wake that area up and see if I can "feel" more stuff happening, so the cues and ideas here are, in a way, a guiding light for me. (at least a good starting point to continue exploration of all types of awareness)

good stuff

JP

I wonder (which translates to I have no real idea but I think I might have read an article that said) if whole body vibration plates mechanical wobble boards would help. In order to regain proprioception the joint has to move enough so the brain can rebuild the data and the vibration plates definitely move you.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I think I was going the wrong direction with ramp. Yesterday I felt like I was really loose in the cuff and felt like maybe adding another 2mm under the heel could help. So I made that change and then today I brought two other pairs so I could try 3 different levels of ramp. 5mm toes down, 1mm toes down and 1mm toes up. 5mm down was definitely not where I should be. I felt like I really had my hips following my skis and pushing the tails I could barely make a short turn at all. Switching back to the flatter setup was much better.

Where can one buy those temporary shims?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Where can one buy those temporary shims?

I'm using my Fischer Curvs for experimentation, they have a race plate, so it's relatively easy to pull the bindings and slide a shim in under the toe or heel. Tyrolia sells kits of shims and bolts. The kit I got has 2 2mm shims and a 1mm shim so I can stack anywhere from 1 to 5mm. I think getting the right bolts is actually harder than the shims.

 

[cantunamunch]

I wonder (which translates to I have no real idea but I think I might have read an article that said) if whole body vibration plates mechanical wobble boards would help. In order to regain proprioception the joint has to move enough so the brain can rebuild the data and the vibration plates definitely move you.

Have you noticed that vibration plates have gone a bit out of fashion? I wonder if this type of concern has anything to do with it.

 

[RuleMiHa]

Where can one buy those temporary shims?

Tognar.com has some

 

[RuleMiHa]

Have you noticed that vibration plates have gone a bit out of fashion? I wonder if this type of concern has anything to do with it.

I was thinking of that, I know I've heard of pudendal nerve damage from cycling (in addition to the arm) but not anything related to legs or standing. I don't think the commercially available boards are that powerful.

My assumption was that they had gone out of fashion since standing on one for five minutes a day will not lead to a 50# weight loss in one week (ok, yes I'm exaggerating but the level of the weight loss claims were ridiculous).