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Instructor might quit because he still sucks at skiing.

surfsnowgirl

Instructor
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2016
Posts
5,838
Location
Magic Mountain, Vermont
I don't know what I would have done if it weren't for my mentors at my mountain. Where my smaller mountain didn't really offer a ton of support was when I got my Level 1. I did that on my own without any clinics. I only work there on weekends and they kept me so busy teaching that there wasn't much time to clinic or otherwise prepare. I just worked hard on my skiing with my mentors whenever I had any downtime. I also made sure I had plenty of time to free ski elsewhere so I could work on things. I definitely think you shouldn't give up yet. Different mountains do things differently. You might find happiness elsewhere.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Much better to follow THEIR dreams. My folks gave it all for me and my sis to follow our dreams. Heck, I was playing music in rock bands trying to make it big well in to my 20s.. Got to ski pretty much anywhere I wanted to all through college. It's my turn to give it all for my kids. That's the way the model should work IMHO..

Perhaps this suggests that it's good I'm childfree :)
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
319
Location
The Rocky Mountains
I read through all of the posts with interest, there are many great suggestions there!

I believe to be a good Ski Instructor you have to be a little bit greedy, do it for yourself not just in concept but every time you go out and teach a lesson, even if it’s a never-ever. Remember the cert process is only 1/3 skiing with teaching and MA being the other two. Out here in the RM Div you can break those up and concentrate on one of those aspects and take that part of the exam individually, there is no time limit, as long as you stay active in the PSIA you can take seasons between each part if you need to and it’s not at all uncommon to take a couple of seasons concentrating on one of those areas well enough to pass. Doing 1/3 of the exam per season, or longer takes the pressure off. If the division you are in does not allow you to break them up then go take the exam in one that does.

If moguls are your weak point (variable terrain-blended task) then concentrate on MA or teaching while you take some clinics and practice those keeping in mind that practicing for the other tasks will undoubtedly help your mogul skiing even in the absence of moguls:).

There is no sugar coating that working part time makes it more challenging. Rightly or wrongly there is an inherent bias towards full time Instructors in the cert process, not by design per se but simply because of the amount of time one has to put in.

Lastly don’t over think the process, when you are ready it will happen, breakthroughs for upper level skiers often come incrementally. Lord knows I’m frustrated with any number of things that are going on in my skiing and I work full time, which just means I have more time to identify more problems in my own skiing:doh:
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Out here in the RM Div you can break those up and concentrate on one of those aspects and take that part of the exam individually, there is no time limit, as long as you stay active in the PSIA you can take seasons between each part if you need to and it’s not at all uncommon to take a couple of seasons concentrating on one of those areas well enough to pass. Doing 1/3 of the exam per season, or longer takes the pressure off. If the division you are in does not allow you to break them up then go take the exam in one that does.

Point of clarification: I thought Rocky Mountain had a 2 year limit for completing all three?
 

hrstrat57

Skis guitars Mustangs
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
338
Location
Yawgoo Valley RI
Don't know where you are teaching but years ago I ski'd in a PSIA clinic with a few Massanutten ski pros and they were very complimentary of how supportive their resort was in all aspects. They were a good group of solid skiers who were doing L2 prep at the time..

This was in the 90's tho perhaps things have changed.

Perhaps a new hill choice?
 

fatbob

Not responding
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,340
Wait a minute. Isn't the on hill training (or lack of it) the primary factor? Just where exactly does the level one candidate get any training and teaching experience prior to getting certified?



What I've heard frequently from my skiing friends when talk turns to skiing better is "Why should I take a lesson when I can ski better than those [unimpressive] instructors?" Yes, the most visible instructors are those teaching the bulk of the business - beginners. The few intermediate lessons concentrate on basics, and most don't look very impressive. High level lessons on black terrain are rare. So even impressive Instructors don't look impressive on the hill. I don't see any upper level lesson marketing. Ski school ads feature kids smiling and high fiving, and adults conquering the bunny slope. Good stuff, but not inspiring to the advanced skier.

I've often thought the best business card for advanced ski school lessons would be for instructors to go ripping advanced terrain in uniform freeskiing. Yet many ski schools seem to prohibit freeskiing in uniform.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,641
Location
PNW aka SEA
If you enjoy what you're doing, keep doing it. Go elsewhere for improvement...like post videos here or find a weekend clinic somewhere when you take time off your teaching hill. (On a side note, I've found way too many PSIA clinicians, even on the division payroll, to be poor instructors. They were born with the physical ability to easily pass the exams. They don't understand what they're demonstrating, don't understand why it is difficult for others, don't know how to get we klutzes to accomplish what they show us. And, I've worked with a few, very few, excellent clinicians.)

If you pass L2, would any pay increase more than cover the cost of the exams? If not, forget about L2.

You're in PSIA NW. Lot's of changes since you've been involved most likely. Honestly, you should reserve public judgement if your knowledge isn't current. FWIW, 6 years ago I might have agreed with you about div staff. Now, not so much. L3's are always mixed. It really depends on their commitment to always becoming better at their craft.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,493
Location
The Bull City
Perhaps this suggests that it's good I'm childfree :)

I realize some ended up with that responsibility sooner than they had hoped.. But that's also not terrible either because the nest then empties while you're still young enough to do more active stuff. Waiting patiently for those days to return can definitely be a bummer at times. Personally, I'm very glad I waited til mid 30s to settle down. I'd totally have been Jonesing for the fun stuff had I not gotten quite a bit of it before we decided to start the family track. I just finished my final season of 8 coaching soccer. Scouting stuff will still keep many weekends booked but the older they get, the more they can do without me needing to be there...
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,493
Location
The Bull City
Back on topic... There aren't even really many (any) good bump terrain places to work on that aspect in VA are there?? A couple places will sometimes let half an easy black bump up on one side or the other for a few hundred feet, but that's about it. You'll need to head north or west to find the proper terrain to really get in some solid bump experience. Some is better than none though.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
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PNW aka SEA
To the OP, just saw this thread. Aside from all the other advice and anedotes offered, one that I haven't seen mentioned is a year round commitment to overall fitness and conditioning. For many, it can be THE most important window for break through off the hill. I'll be blunt. Attaining upper certs as a part-time instructor AND as an adult learner is tough. Yes, there's no substitute for time on the hill both in clinics and just free skiing. Directed free skiing is magic. The fitness thing... it's difficult to ski at higher levels without basic core strength. It's hard to ski 40-50+ lbs above one's ideal adult body weight. Sure, we all see people who manage to do this from time to time, but odds are really against us. L2 isn't fantastically athletic by any means, but show up at the beginning of the season with a good base level of fitness, and improvement will come more quickly. If weight isn't an issue, then work on strength, flexibility, and aerobic fitness. IMHO, it IS attainable even with a busy 'real life' schedule if it's approached with incremental, measurable goals.
 

Blue Streak

I like snow.
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,266
Location
Edwards, Colorado
Go to a bootfitter and give them this feedback.
The problem is that precise alignment is an iterative process which is hard to do without a lot of self awareness about your skiing and a great set of eyes behind you.
I am blessed to ski with some of the best trainers in RM, whose eyes I really trust, and I am still working on dialing in the boots I bought a month ago.
Thank God for gorilla tape!

Has anyone suggested Rookie Academy for the OP?

Mike M had nothing but good things to say about it.
 

CalG

Out on the slopes
Pass Pulled
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Posts
1,962
Location
Vt
It's OK to suck at skiing. You are likely good at something else. Don't pass the bad mojo off to beginners!
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
I've often thought the best business card for advanced ski school lessons would be for instructors to go ripping advanced terrain in uniform freeskiing. Yet many ski schools seem to prohibit freeskiing in uniform.

WHICH instructors? Many many instructors would not be good advertisements.

At Breck, especially on days with lesson club going, you see multiple instructors taking their students into advanced terrain and ripping it up. But there seems to be some sort of perception effect. We've had people follow us into very real terrain - seemingly on the theory that if it's ski school, it can't be that hard. They were wrong. In one notable case, a guy followed us into notorious shark territory. Our group discussed the location of the shark fields - we were all fairly familiar - and got down safely. The guy who followed us bitched out our instructor for somehow implicitly allowing him to do something dangerous and wreck his bases. That same day, I later found out, someone got real bloody on those sharks.
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
Skier
Team Gathermeister
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Nov 12, 2015
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7,299
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Boston Suburbs
We've had people follow us into very real terrain

At Snowbird we had someone follow us into Tiger Tail, and the instructor pulled him aside and read him the riot act. He tried to make excuses and claim it was just a coincidence. "Ok, you go first."
 

at_nyc

Getting off the lift
Pass Pulled
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Posts
646
The guy who followed us bitched out our instructor for somehow implicitly allowing him to do something dangerous and wreck his bases.
Did anyone suggest he use the money for base repair to pay for the lesson?
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado

DavidSkis

Thinking snow
Skier
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Posts
118
Location
Toronto
I do know a few extremely skilled skiers and they all seem to have one thing in common: at one time or another, they had the opportunity to put in just a ton of miles on snow. My belief is that while this alone is not sufficient to lead to elite skill levels, (there also has to be good coaching, focused practice,etc.), it is necessary.
There's a guy in the instructor training program I'm at who attained his level 3 ski after just two seasons. So he doesn't have a ton of miles (probably 200 ski days under his belt), but he did deliberate practice under excellent guidance. This story is a repeat of what I saw 10 years ago at Silver Star, where a first season skier/instructor, who started the season skiing only wedge turns, attained his level 3 ski by the end of the year.

In contrast I know a multitude of instructors who have been at this for decades and aren't presently contenders for the level 3, despite attending many sessions and trying their best. The success factors I observe in the successful guys that are sometimes absent in the rest are:
  • Consistent time on snow (not just weekends, but also multiple consecutive days)
  • One to three mentors who can assess and teach at a high level (no more than 3)
  • Deliberate practice
  • Moderate or better mind-body connection
  • Sufficient physical fitness to move through a range of motion and balance against forces acting on the ski/skier
  • A strong understanding of advanced skiing concepts
For me, I've been at this for 12 years now, and am only now getting more consistent turns at the 3 standard--and it still comes and goes. I can put checkmarks against some but not all of the boxes above. I lost a number of years due to inconsistent time on snow (particularly after moving back to Ontario), too many sessions with too many instructors, mediocre fitness, an underdeveloped understanding advanced skiing concepts, and an underdeveloped mind-body connection. Things picked up again once I found a good coach who put me back on track.

In contrast, Razie got his coach-3 in quite a lot less time. It would be interesting to hear his perspective.

And Chris Walker, it would be awesome to see a ski-specific study! Great idea :)

I've often thought the best business card for advanced ski school lessons would be for instructors to go ripping advanced terrain in uniform freeskiing. Yet many ski schools seem to prohibit freeskiing in uniform.
In Canada, the standard for 3 is scored on blue or black terrain (depends on the turn). We've gotten used to seeing such awesome skiing on TV and Youtube (Candide Thovex, Richie Berger, JF Beaulieu, Tanner Hall, Reilly McGlashan, etc) that the bar on "looking good" is incredibly high. Even a level 3 can look pretty unassuming on steep and deep terrain, even though they could teach the typical advanced skier how to ski better. I can understand why snowschool directors don't want 1s and 2s to ski steeps or off-piste in uniform - it's just not a good image when the instructors are making a series of linked recoveries down Couloir Extreme. FWIW the policy where I used to work was that 3s and 4s could ski where they wanted in uniform, although those guys were almost always booked into lessons, so...

That said, I'd agree that the marketing for advanced and expert skiers is almost non-existent. At the same time, there are far fewer 3 and 4 instructors out there.
 

at_nyc

Getting off the lift
Pass Pulled
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Posts
646
I'd agree that the marketing for advanced and expert skiers is almost non-existent.
Market or marketing?

I think everyone realize the market for advanced or beyond lesson is quite small. Would more marketing generate more market?

At the same time, there are far fewer 3 and 4 instructors out there.
Do you think it's a result of less demand? Or just the result of insufficient reward to motivate instructors to do the assessment?
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
The success factors I observe in the successful guys that are sometimes absent in the rest are:
  • Consistent time on snow (not just weekends, but also multiple consecutive days)
  • One to three mentors who can assess and teach at a high level (no more than 3)
  • Deliberate practice
  • Moderate or better mind-body connection
  • Sufficient physical fitness to move through a range of motion and balance against forces acting on the ski/skier
  • A strong understanding of advanced skiing concepts
.

I’d say that you also need to not have a lot of ingrainedovement patterns and beliefs. The longer you’ve been skiing with inefficient movement patterns and misunderstandings of biomechanics, the longer it is going to take to overcome those learnings and movement patterns. As @Bob Barnes taught me practice makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,726
Location
New England
....At the same time, there are far fewer 3 and 4 instructors out there.

Why are there few level 3 and 4 instructors out there? In Canada? Dunno.

In PSIA East, I'll go with inadequate training. One needs an up-to-date mentor, and one needs hours on snow. Most instructors in the East are part-time. How many small mountains in the east have some level threes who are current on what's being required of new candidates? Many level threes got their level three many years ago, and a lot of small mountains don't have many level threes on staff. There isn't enough time or pay-back for current level threes to freely mentor the part-timers who seek higher certification. These folks are busy teaching because the mountains are short-staffed. How many part-timers who want higher certification can beat the odds of this situation and figure out on their own how to do what the test looks for in their limited free time on the mountain?

It's different at huge destination resorts, from what I read. But in some areas there aren't many of those, if any.
 

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