Identifying foot volume

[laine]

Not in the market for new boots right now (after my recent boot fitting debacle - see thread below), but I'm curious how you classify volume in a foot. Is it more based on the foot width or the foot/instep height?

For example, I have a narrow foot, but higher arch - which do you tend to fit for first? Do you recommend a 98 last for the width or 100 for the height?

-laine

 

[markojp]

Not in the market for new boots right now (after my recent boot fitting debacle - see thread below), but I'm curious how you classify volume in a foot. Is it more based on the foot width or the foot/instep height?

For example, I have a narrow foot, but higher arch - which do you tend to fit for first? Do you recommend a 98 last for the width or 100 for the height?

-laine

Yes.


(One can have a high arch AND low instep. The numbers on boot boxes and boots are two dimensional measures of 3d volumes, and even in boots with similar measures, the location of volumes may be critically different. And remember, in a womens' boot, the numbers are from a 24.5 and a mens' in 26.5 shell size. Smaller are lower, bigger are higher. Even the true lenghts of the boot measured internally from heel to toe are different in different boot lines from the same manufacture (Salomon X-max, X-pro, and plug race boots are a good example... they're all different even if the boot says 26.5) and that's the simplest one! There are narrow boots with higher insteps if that's what you need, so it may not be and 'either/or' choice at all. That said, the instep can absolutely be more important than the actual length of a boot. Last width is easily addressed... in general it's not difficult to make more, but very undesirable to make less with volume shims, etc...)

 

[Near Nyquist]

Not in the market for new boots right now (after my recent boot fitting debacle - see thread below), but I'm curious how you classify volume in a foot. Is it more based on the foot width or the foot/instep height?

For example, I have a narrow foot, but higher arch - which do you tend to fit for first? Do you recommend a 98 last for the width or 100 for the height?

-laine

Bootfitters use instep ratio to identify a potential high volume fit, length of the foot in cm vs instep height measured with a tape from one side of the heel over the instep to other side of the heel.

If your instep measurement is equal to your length you are normal, if it's bigger by a cm or more you may be looking for a higher volume boot. Less than a cm you are looking for a lower volume fit over the arch.

Each manufacturer makes a boot with higher or lower volume over the instep for a given last size.

The goal is to fit the heel and instep as snugly as possible, then adjust the forefoot as needed. Sometimes it's off the shelf other times plastic/liner work is required

A bootfitter with a good inventory can come up with an optimal boot for the particular volume requirement with the correct last width in the forefoot.

This is effectively the art in boot fitting. Knowing your inventory and the particular foot shape in front of you and modifications you can make to adapt the fit to the athlete. The manufacturers also change things around each season to keep you on your toes

 

[Near Nyquist]

Yes.


(One can have a high arch AND low instep. The numbers on boot boxes and boots are two dimensional measures of 3d volumes, and even in boots with similar measures, the location of volumes may be critically different. And remember, in a womens' boot, the numbers are from a 24.5 and a mens' in 26.5 shell size. Smaller are lower, bigger are higher. Even the true lenghts of the boot measured internally from heel to toe are different in different boot lines from the same manufacture (Salomon X-max, X-pro, and plug race boots are a good example... they're all different even if the boot says 26.5) and that's the simplest one! There are narrow boots with higher insteps if that's what you need, so it may not be and 'either/or' choice at all. That said, the instep can absolutely be more important than the actual length of a boot. Last width is easily addressed... in general it's not difficult to make more, but very undesirable to make less with volume shims, etc...)

What he said, I didn't want to get into manufacturer specific boots, but those mentioned above are the usual suspects around our shop

 

[Philpug]

Sidas has a really cool machine and program that measures foot volume and matches to shells, it can adjust up and down shell sizes. It might be your final boot decision but will narrow down to 2 or 3 very good options.

 

[Near Nyquist]

Sidas has a really cool machine and program that measures foot volume and matches to shells, it can adjust up and down shell sizes. It might be your final boot decision but will narrow down to 2 or 3 very good options.

Phil,

Does it have all the manufacturers last shapes stored in memory for each model year ?

It would be a godsend on some of the busy weekends for basic triage of boot fits and with lesser skilled employees

 

[markojp]

Yours for 5 digits.

 

[Near Nyquist]

Yours for 5 digits.

That could work in Silicon Valley
Hard as hell to create bootfitters here

Does it need to take lunch after 5 hours ????

 

[Tricia]

Not in the market for new boots right now (after my recent boot fitting debacle - see thread below), but I'm curious how you classify volume in a foot. Is it more based on the foot width or the foot/instep height?

For example, I have a narrow foot, but higher arch - which do you tend to fit for first? Do you recommend a 98 last for the width or 100 for the height?

-laine

As you've seen, the answer to your questions is, yes.
There are red flags that inspire me to take measurements that aren't always a "given" for the average boot fit.

Sidas has a really cool machine and program that measures foot volume and matches to shells, it can adjust up and down shell sizes. It might be your final boot decision but will narrow down to 2 or 3 very good options.

I thought I had some pics of that, but I don't.

 

[raytseng]

The new fischer set of machines is supposed to do that and take the need for art out of it. Not sure if that's the same as sidas. But of course I would assume it only have Fischer boots in it.
https://www.fischersports.com/us_en/technologies/alpine/vacuum

Would definitely make it easier so for example REIs can get 90% of an ideal boot fit for 90% of skiers without decades of experience and training and manual labor

 

[MarkP]

That could work in Silicon Valley
Hard as hell to create bootfitters here

Does it need to take lunch after 5 hours ????

Maybe it'll settle for a direct link to IBM's Watson.

 

[MarkP]

The new fischer set of machines is supposed to do that and take the need for art out of it. Not sure if that's the same as sidas. But of course I would assume it only have Fischer boots in it.
https://www.fischersports.com/us_en/technologies/alpine/vacuum

Would definitely make it easier so for example REIs can get 90% of an ideal boot fit for 90% of skiers without decades of experience and training and manual labor

.
I was in my local REI today to get some Nikwax Techwash and Wash In Waterproofing. The young man working the ski area didn't know what that was, let alone where it was. I then asked if they might have any heal and toe lifts (I'm messing around with my front/back balance and trying to take up some volume opened up by my packed out liners); again, no clue.

But I don't claim to be one of the 90%-ers that'll settle for 90% of what I want.

 

[Philpug]

Phil,

Does it have all the manufacturers last shapes stored in memory for each model year ?

It would be a godsend on some of the busy weekends for basic triage of boot fits and with lesser skilled employees

Yes it does. I didn't get to play with it fully but it sounds pretty cool. Yes, the Fischer machine ison the same architecture.

 

[Near Nyquist]

Yes it does. I didn't get to play with it fully but it sounds pretty cool. Yes, the Fischer machine ison the same architecture.

Did they give you an idea of cost or do they want you to carry the full sidas line ?

 

[Mob]

Bumping this thread.

When I measure my instep, my heel to heel measurement is 1cm longer than the length of my foot. My width of my forefoot is 101mm. I am interested in the Tecnica Mach 1 MV 120. I bought some and have been wearing them at home. The last on these is 100mm and my 5th toe goes numb after 45 minutes of just sitting in the house wearing them. I think the shell could be punched to solve this issue. The bigger issue is the pressure I feel on the top of my foot, that really starts to hurt after about an hour. While I have a moderate to high arch, I do not have a big foot, which is why I didn't get a HV version. The rest of the boot fits really well. Should I get an HV version, or have a boot fitter do something to get the pressure off the top of my foot.

 

[markojp]

You could take advice from people online who don't regularly fit boots and can't see your foot, etc... or you could go see your fitter and let them fix it. Seems a straightforward choice.

 

[Mob]

You could take advice from people online who don't regularly fit boots and can't see your foot, etc... or you could go see your fitter and let them fix it. Seems a straightforward choice.

My impression was that there were some boot fitters on this thread, and wanted to get their advice to help narrow it down ahead of time, mainly regarding the uncomfortable pressure on the top of my foot. If my description doesn't provide enough information to narrow this down, and an in person fitting is absolutely needed to even answer this question, then I understand and am fine with that.

 

[Henry]

This old thread reminds me of a guy I know with feet the opposite of Laine's. His feet are wide and flat; he describes them as shaped like pancakes. He tells about new boots sized to his width, and his feet were swimming in them; he hated how he skied with them. A fitter who knows his craft fitted him in different boots, not high volume, and with the capability to be punched out for his p̶a̶d̶d̶l̶e̶s̶...err...feet. He loves how he skis in these boots. My feet are shaped like carpenters' pencils, long, narrow, and flat. Different challenge.

If that expensive scanner includes annual updates on boot internal shapes for each major boot make & model, and it noticeably speeds along an excellent fitting, it might eventually more than pay for itself.

...have a boot fitter do something to get the pressure off the top of my foot.

Phil posted a long while back that one option in the kit for a good fitter was to consider shaving down the bootboard a millimeter or two to lower the foot inside the boot. Of course you can never change just one thing, this changes how the foot fits in all parts of the boot, and one needs to really know their stuff before doing something like this. (When railroad track design engineers need to run taller trains through old tunnels they may cut down the floor of the tunnel.)

 

[Tricia]

My impression was that there were some boot fitters on this thread, and wanted to get their advice to help narrow it down ahead of time, mainly regarding the uncomfortable pressure on the top of my foot. If my description doesn't provide enough information to narrow this down, and an in person fitting is absolutely needed to even answer this question, then I understand and am fine with that.

The suggestion to see a fitter is always a good one, but in your case I'd say there are some good things to help you dial in the fit. It sounds like you only have a few things that may need to be tweaked in that boot (based on the information provided)

First let me say, sitting in the house is not the same as skiing so the pressure may be different while skiing.
Second, I'd suggest a custom footbed which *may* solve some of the issues.
Third, often, when you get a punch to address the pressre on the 6th toe area, it will relax the instep (not arch) and take pressure off the top of your foot.

Hope this helps you to be informed when you see a fitter.

 

[Mob]

The suggestion to see a fitter is always a good one, but in your case I'd say there are some good things to help you dial in the fit. It sounds like you only have a few things that may need to be tweaked in that boot (based on the information provided)

First let me say, sitting in the house is not the same as skiing so the pressure may be different while skiing.
Second, I'd suggest a custom footbed which *may* solve some of the issues.
Third, often, when you get a punch to address the pressre on the 6th toe area, it will relax the instep (not arch) and take pressure off the top of your foot.

Hope this helps you to be informed when you see a fitter.

Thank you, this is helpful. We are going out to Steamboat in a few weeks, and I plan to take these boots with me, and get their thoughts if they can make this work. They charge in a "a la carte" fashion, so they will get paid for whatever work needs to be done. If they think this is the wrong boot, then I can still return it, as they are brand new and only been on the carpet inside. I have found that the boots are more comfortable when I am standing up in a ski position than they are when I am sitting down. I think adjusting the MV to fit my foot is going to be a better option than getting an HV boot, as I worry that the HV would be alittle loose for my foot. I do have a couple of different footbeds that definitely help as well.