• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,328
Location
The Bull City
Odds of finding good condition used 18" dedicated snows in Denver mid ski season don't seem that good. I run Continental Control Contact on my Forester year round. They are an all season that has a special center groove and additional siping for snow and ice. Pretty happy with them for the 5-10 days a year I might actually see snow and ice on the roads on the way to ski or that odd snowstorm that hits central NC every other year. I have cable chains handy if it gets really nasty.. never used them though since 2009.

Your situation definitely calls for dedicated snow tires. I'd say anything more than a week or two with good probability of nasty storm driving I'd feel much better having dedicated snows regardless of the expense... or chains.. But, chains don't play well with Subies.. You'll void your warranty for any damage caused by them and there is practically zero clearance in the wheel wells for them so I'd only use them for a mile tops to get out of a really icy spot, not all the way through the pass..Snow socks are another good option for a few miles here or there

8 weeks in Colorado skiing? Dedicated snows, no other safe option other than not driving in storms.. I don't think you'll find used ones when you arrive but you may be able to sell yours at the end of your stay there and put the duelers back on to go home.
 

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,835
Location
Ogden, UT
This winter we will be driving out from Florida to Colorado for a 9-10 week ski trip and we bought a brand new Subaru Outback for the trip and are disappointed to learn that the stock tires on that vehicle are crap in the snow (actually crap on anything it appears). So my 2 options are to look for some cheap used snow tires on Denver Craigslist when we get out there and then put the stock ones back on for the drive home, or buy some good all seasons here in Florida. What I don't want is to get some winter-biased tires here that are only going to get winter-used for a few months and then be a compromise the rest of the year. If anything, I'd prefer them to excel in out of snow conditions but still be capable for the few months we'll be using them in CO. We will be skiing almost daily and especially on the big snow days so we don't want to be under-gunned on those days but also realize those days are rare. Also, we'll be staying in Georgetown and mostly skiing Luv on snow days so it will be a short distance but up a fairly steep pass (I grew up in Tahoe/Mammoth so I have snow experience).

So I've read good things about the Michelin LTX but I'm a little confused because some here are recommending the Premier and some the Defender. The premier doesn't appear to have nearly as gnarly tread pattern (actually, doesn't look that different than the stock Subi tires) so it would probably be better for other conditions but the Defender definitely looks to be better in snow. However, the defender's look way overkill the rest of the year. So what do you think will be best for our scenario? 1. Get a dedicated snow tire when we get to Denver. 2. Get a winter-biased all season that crushes it in the snow but then is a compromise for the rest of the tire's life. 3. Get a tire that is better for the 90+% of it's life but is a compromise in the snow (but hopefully not as much compromise as the stock Bridgestone Dueller AS that are on it).

Our Limited Outback has 18" which makes the options a little more expensive than the 17" versions. Thanks for your help!
I put the Defenders on my Mazda CX5 last fall, ran them to Snowbasin daily all winter in some hideous conditions, ran them all summer, and am going on my 2nd winter with them. Drove to Grand Targhee last weekend on snow packed and icy roads. They do GREAT in the snow with my Mazda, and are great during the summer, too. My one complaint is that my MPG did decrease with them by 1-2 MPG. But, they are also wider than the stock tires, which could be contributing to that. Tread wear has been great, too. I get them rotated on schedule.
 

tball

Unzipped
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,362
Location
Denver, CO
So I've read good things about the Michelin LTX but I'm a little confused because some here are recommending the Premier and some the Defender. The premier doesn't appear to have nearly as gnarly tread pattern (actually, doesn't look that different than the stock Subi tires) so it would probably be better for other conditions but the Defender definitely looks to be better in snow. However, the defender's look way overkill the rest of the year. So what do you think will be best for our scenario? 1. Get a dedicated snow tire when we get to Denver. 2. Get a winter-biased all season that crushes it in the snow but then is a compromise for the rest of the tire's life. 3. Get a tire that is better for the 90+% of it's life but is a compromise in the snow (but hopefully not as much compromise as the stock Bridgestone Dueller AS that are on it).

Go get the Premier LTX's. As much as I love the idea of a Subaru with Florida plates and four studded snow tires sitting in the Loveland lot, it's just not necessary.

In spite of being a huge snow tire advocate, we've had the Michelin Premier LTX's on our MDX for the last two winters. They have done fantastic for probably 20 ski trip up I-70, including a handful of storms. We've also had a few big storms in Denver where I've played around with them in deep snow and they do great, in addition to being my wife's all-weather commuting vehicle.

I chose the Premier's over the Defender's because they have a softer compound that does better in the snow, and has better all-around performance. The trade-off is durability. The Defender's will last a lot longer, and the much better mileage warranty reflects that. Not worth the safety trade-off for me.

That said, I've put X-ice's on the MDX for this winter. From my experience, winter performance of even the best all-season tires degrades significantly with tread wear.

Our winter tire quiver is now happily two sets of X-ice and one set of studded Hakkapeliitta 7 SUV's. That probably explains why it's going to be 74 degrees in Denver today. :huh:

With a brand new set of Premier LTX's, you'll probably be around the top 20th percentile for traction on I-70. It's the other 80% you need to look out for. Yeah, it's that bad. Look at tires in the parking lot on a powder day and you'll see why you should fear any vehicle driving near you.

I'd have no problem driving an Outback with brand new Premier LTX's for a winter of I-70 storm chasing, notwithstanding a significant objection to being yet another Coloradoan driving a Subaru. A Floridan driving a Subaru, now that's cool with me. ogsmile
 
Last edited:

BGreen

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Posts
537
Location
Colorado
I have no experience with the Premiere. The Defender, assuming it is basically the old LTX 2, is terrible on ice, but is otherwise a very good all conditions tire. They handle slush and loose snow far better than the X-Ice. The X-Ice wins in hardpack and ice. Slush/loose over ice is probably a wash.
 
Thread Starter
TS
nay

nay

dirt heel pusher
Skier
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Posts
6,477
Location
Colorado
So what do you think will be best for our scenario? 1. Get a dedicated snow tire when we get to Denver. 2. Get a winter-biased all season that crushes it in the snow but then is a compromise for the rest of the tire's life. 3. Get a tire that is better for the 90+% of it's life but is a compromise in the snow (but hopefully not as much compromise as the stock Bridgestone Dueller AS that are on it).

The poor assumption in bold is your answer. If you get a premium tire, it won’t be a compromise the rest of its life, it will be excellent for the rest of its life. The “all weather” class is specifically designed to excel in rain, and you will have plenty of that back home where this type of tire will be far superior to the OEM tire.

Personally, I would get the Defender version for the extra tread life and more aggressive lug spacing. When I-70 gets really icy, it’s usually a) in the shoulder season when you won’t be here due to going from very warm to storm temps extremely quickly, and b) is often the worst from just outside of Denver to Idaho Springs because that is often where the most traffic and those perfect temps to turn powder into ice as it gets heavy traffic exist.

Because of this, I’d prefer a tire to handle soapy snow conditions that prevail at the higher altitudes. This stuff drives like creamy slush, and increased lug spacing is better for this condition as soapy snow makes sipes ineffective as everything just smears.

You probably can’t go wrong with @tball ’s suggestion - he and I differ on needing more ice traction vs. lug spacing for soap, slush, and deeper snow, but it’s probably not terribly important in the LTX line, which I would never consider for my uses in the first place (I also don’t own any AWD cars), and which is why I would opt for the longer treadlife for use back home.

Either way, it’s a huge upgrade for all four seasons and why those tires sell at a premium price.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,617
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
It should be possible to fit a 17" tire with a different aspect ratio on your subbie, so long as it gives you the same outer diameter. I don't know for sure though; I have no idea what wheels you need to fit over your brakes. Any decent tire shop or stealership should be able to confirm.
 
Thread Starter
TS
nay

nay

dirt heel pusher
Skier
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Posts
6,477
Location
Colorado
^^^But then he loses his sexy 18”’rims. But there’s no way an Outback requires an 18” for brake coverage. That’s just for wagon pimpin’.
 

scott43

So much better than a pro
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
13,552
Location
Great White North
^^^But then he loses his sexy 18”’rims. But there’s no way an Outback requires an 18” for brake coverage. That’s just for wagon pimpin’.
With the 3.6, 17" rims are apparently the smallest size with adequate brake clearance. With the 2.5 I believe you can use 16".
 

Scruffy

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 16, 2015
Posts
2,429
Location
Upstate NY
Check out Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2, great in snow and ice and wet, quiet and good MPG. You can change out your OEM tires and just run these when back in Florida until their useful life is exhausted.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,617
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
Check out Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2, great in snow and ice and wet, quiet and good MPG. You can change out your OEM tires and just run these when back in Florida until their useful life is exhausted.
Which won't take too long :duck:.

I love the Hakkapeliitta R2. My Mazda is on its 2nd winter season with them. Best non-studded winter tire ever. They are not a high-milage tire though, so factoring in wear rate they are expen$ive. Micheline X-ice III would be worth saving on their own rims for many extra trips, or a few extra seasons.
 

surfandski

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Posts
708
Location
Clearwater Beach, Fl and Pisgah Forest, NC
Go get the Premier LTX's. As much as I love the idea of a Subaru with Florida plates and four studded snow tires sitting in the Loveland lot, it's just not necessary.

In spite of being a huge snow tire advocate, we've had the Michelin Premier LTX's on our MDX for the last two winters. They have done fantastic for probably 20 ski trip up I-70, including a handful of storms. We've also had a few big storms in Denver where I've played around with them in deep snow and they do great, in addition to being my wife's all-weather commuting vehicle.

I chose the Premier's over the Defender's because they have a softer compound that does better in the snow, and has better all-around performance. The trade-off is durability. The Defender's will last a lot longer, and the much better mileage warranty reflects that. Not worth the safety trade-off for me.

That said, I've put X-ice's on the MDX for this winter. From my experience, winter performance of even the best all-season tires degrades significantly with tread wear.

Our winter tire quiver is now happily two sets of X-ice and one set of studded Hakkapeliitta 7 SUV's. That probably explains why it's going to be 74 degrees in Denver today. :huh:

With a brand new set of Premier LTX's, you'll probably be around the top 20th percentile for traction on I-70. It's the other 80% you need to look out for. Yeah, it's that bad. Look at tires in the parking lot on a powder day and you'll see why you should fear any vehicle driving near you.

I'd have no problem driving an Outback with brand new Premier LTX's for a winter of I-70 storm chasing, notwithstanding a significant objection to being yet another Coloradoan driving a Subaru. A Floridan driving a Subaru, now that's cool with me. ogsmile

Actually, our Subie has NC plates as we usually keep it up at our mountain home. We debated for a while between an Acura MDX and Outback and if I could do it all over again I'd go with the Acura. There are a few things I like about the Outback but there are a number of things I HATE about it but we just got it so I'm stuck with it for awhile. I won't buy another Subaru though.
 

ChrisFromOC

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Jan 14, 2017
Posts
149
Location
So Cal
Go get the Premier LTX's. As much as I love the idea of a Subaru with Florida plates and four studded snow tires sitting in the Loveland lot, it's just not necessary.

In spite of being a huge snow tire advocate, we've had the Michelin Premier LTX's on our MDX for the last two winters. They have done fantastic for probably 20 ski trip up I-70, including a handful of storms. We've also had a few big storms in Denver where I've played around with them in deep snow and they do great, in addition to being my wife's all-weather commuting vehicle.

I chose the Premier's over the Defender's because they have a softer compound that does better in the snow, and has better all-around performance. The trade-off is durability. The Defender's will last a lot longer, and the much better mileage warranty reflects that. Not worth the safety trade-off for me.

That said, I've put X-ice's on the MDX for this winter. From my experience, winter performance of even the best all-season tires degrades significantly with tread wear.

Our winter tire quiver is now happily two sets of X-ice and one set of studded Hakkapeliitta 7 SUV's. That probably explains why it's going to be 74 degrees in Denver today. :huh:

With a brand new set of Premier LTX's, you'll probably be around the top 20th percentile for traction on I-70. It's the other 80% you need to look out for. Yeah, it's that bad. Look at tires in the parking lot on a powder day and you'll see why you should fear any vehicle driving near you.

I'd have no problem driving an Outback with brand new Premier LTX's for a winter of I-70 storm chasing, notwithstanding a significant objection to being yet another Coloradoan driving a Subaru. A Floridan driving a Subaru, now that's cool with me. ogsmile

One option to consider is the Nokian WRG3. We have an Outback moving from So Cal to Denver and replaced OEM tires with the Nokian. Tires are in transit and will be installed next Monday, so while I don’t have any first hand input I read probably way too much about them online and they seem like a really good compromise without going winter specific. Severe weather rated, but not quite as snow biased as the top line snow tires, yet work very well year round also.
 

TexasStout

Epic Pass + Loveland 4-pack for 2021-2022
Skier
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Posts
698
Location
Texas and Colorado
Actually, our Subie has NC plates as we usually keep it up at our mountain home. We debated for a while between an Acura MDX and Outback and if I could do it all over again I'd go with the Acura. There are a few things I like about the Outback but there are a number of things I HATE about it but we just got it so I'm stuck with it for awhile. I won't buy another Subaru though.
The Subie does have THE best AWD made though, so there is that. You'll just need to allocate a lot of time in the Rockies over several winters to get the benefit. ;)
 
Thread Starter
TS
nay

nay

dirt heel pusher
Skier
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Posts
6,477
Location
Colorado
The Subie does have THE best AWD made though, so there is that. You'll just need to allocate a lot of time in the Rockies over several winters to get the benefit. ;)

The only good AWD can be shifted to 4WD.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,328
Location
The Bull City
The only good AWD can be shifted to 4WD.

And how many SUVs come from the dealer with that option??:huh: Unless it's easily obtained, it's irrelevant for this discussion among regular car folks.

Back to the "Hybrid: tire discussion. Exactly what makes something a hybrid?... Is it the compound more than the tread or are both compound and tread weighted equally?

How was this compound developed? I ask because about 5 years ago the local tire experts talked me in to purchasing the brand new Bridgstone Ecopias, eco blend tires because they didn't have any real "good" winter rated tires in stock.. ever in central North Carolina. the tire shop folks said the compound was kind of non Neutonian in that it didn't get too hard in cold weather or too guey in warm weather. I was blown away by how well they gripped in cold wet roads, ice, slush, and snow. I replaced them with another eco blend which did have tread and siping slanted towards winter performance and am amazed even more. They are also super quiet and of course improve MPG a little bit. I was wondering if these "hybrids" were an offshoot of the eco tire initiative..
 
Thread Starter
TS
nay

nay

dirt heel pusher
Skier
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Posts
6,477
Location
Colorado
I was only responding to the comment, because the best AWD system is the one that can be eliminated by locking the center diff. A center locking diff enables infinite torque bias, and that has effects on acceleration and braking.

All of which is exactly why you don’t really see 4x4 winter tires and why I started this thread. So it’s pertinent for regular car types to understand how much they may or may not want to bias to this type of tire over a winter tire, because AWD and 4WD do not apply torque in the same way, 2wd can only apply torque on a single plane, and this can affect how one feels about different types of high traction tires.

<ends defense of my snooty comment>

The term “hybrid” was probably a poor choice, even though it is descriptive. I’m not sure it’s an offshoot of the “eco” tire as much as simply the pursuit of the one tire quiver - the tire you mention was probably a poorly marketed all weather tire. At the class level, what is happening is that “all terrain” tires have finally been refocused to add “all weather” and where they used to be about as effective as all season tires - many are now so good at so many things that it is hard to believe. 10 years ago you wouldn’t have caught me dead on an all terrain tire, and now they have pushed other tires to very specific use requirements because the performance envelope is so broad with no major downsides.

There are a few keys to this, but compound advances are the cornerstone to all of them (silica, chip and cut resistant additives, etc.). The question that is raised is “how much more do I really need”?

I think for 4x4’s that is a really easy answer (none), for 2wd it is a really easy answer (all), and for AWD, which really means computer assisted torque bias via hydraulic braking with or without a center differential (much better with, but fewer cupholders), it depends.

I would 100% put winter tires on a AWD Toyota Sienna, but a good four season tire on an Outback. I had the Nokian WR in a 2002 Legacy wagon and that was a great tire on that car. So much so that I was really disappointed to be sailing through intersections on a subsequent Hakka shod 2wd Nissan Quest. So much matters beyond the badges they stick on vehicles (or not) to market their capability, and “all wheel drive” covers far too broad of a design specification to be as meaningful as buyers might hope. The sensor fed stability computers that are constantly managing your brakes can cover up only as much as the mechanical traction limits enable, and one’s choice of tire might well reflect one’s understanding of how their vehicle is actually allowing slip that has to be “managed”.
 
Last edited:

PTskier

Been goin' downhill for years....
Pass Pulled
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Posts
583
Location
Washington, the state
I put real winter tires on every vehicle. It gives me much better control to dodge another car sliding toward me. The cost of the tires isn't much more than the cost of the insurance deductible I don't have to pay.

Every tire design is a compromise. There is no design that offers the best traction, lowest rolling resistance, longest tread life, great handling, and high comfort & low noise all in the same tire. Pick what is most important to you. The comment above about all-season tires winter performance dropping off quickly as the tires age & wear is important. I once rented a GM car with Continental all season tires, about 45,000 miles on them. On frost or snow they were just scary.

There are a couple of all-weather tires with the winter severe service rating (snowflake on the mountain symbol) on the market. I've had the Cooper AT/W on a pickup, but didn't own it long enough to give it a snow test. They were fine in the summer, smooth & quiet. Cooper's Dean brand has the SQ-4 which is very similar. Certain Goodyear Wrangler DuraTrac tires have the winter severe service rating. The Nokian WRG3 were noted above. Any of these will give better winter traction than any all-season tire and shorter summer tread life, probably not as good snow traction as a true winter tire. That's the compromise.
 

John O

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
423
Location
Seattle, WA
With the 3.6, 17" rims are apparently the smallest size with adequate brake clearance. With the 2.5 I believe you can use 16".

As far as I can tell, all outback trim levels have the exact same brakes and should therefore have the same clearance (see about 2/3 of the way down the page in the mechanical specs section: http://www.cars101.com/subaru/outback/outback2018.html).

Where have you seen that you can fit 16" rims?

Older outbacks like my '08 can definitely fit 16's (I know because that's what I run for my snow tires), but my car has smaller discs than the '18's do.
 
Thread Starter
TS
nay

nay

dirt heel pusher
Skier
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Posts
6,477
Location
Colorado
There are a couple of all-weather tires with the winter severe service rating (snowflake on the mountain symbol) on the market. I've had the Cooper AT/W on a pickup, but didn't own it long enough to give it a snow test. They were fine in the summer, smooth & quiet. Cooper's Dean brand has the SQ-4 which is very similar. Certain Goodyear Wrangler DuraTrac tires have the winter severe service rating. The Nokian WRG3 were noted above. Any of these will give better winter traction than any all-season tire and shorter summer tread life, probably not as good snow traction as a true winter tire. That's the compromise.

The more aggressive tires in this thread will easily outperform a “winter” tire in deeper snow and other conditions such as heavy slush that favor a tire’s ability to clean its treads vs. siping traction. They will not outperform in 2D winter conditions. Compromises on both sides.

The biggest advance is the longer tread life for this level of performance. I have 35K on a set of BFG ko2 (they bear the mountain snowflake) that still have about 2/3 tread and 25K on Falken AT3W (also have the mountain snowflake) that are above 3/4 tread and having started at 20/32 have as much tread as most of these tires have new.

The ko2 have been through 3 summers and the Falken through one, and winter traction has not deteriorated for either tire. Both will easily hit 50K going strong.

The advances across the board in premium tires are pretty remarkable.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,617
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
As far as I can tell, all outback trim levels have the exact same brakes and should therefore have the same clearance (see about 2/3 of the way down the page in the mechanical specs section: http://www.cars101.com/subaru/outback/outback2018.html).

Where have you seen that you can fit 16" rims?

Older outbacks like my '08 can definitely fit 16's (I know because that's what I run for my snow tires), but my car has smaller discs than the '18's do.

I used to run Michelin Pilots on an old Chevy Wagon. I don't recall the size, but the it was not stock. It was wider than stock, and IIRC it also gave me a 2% speedometer error (said I was going 100 when I was going 102).

One day when I went to Costco to replace two tires, they wouldn't do it because the tire size wasn't listed in their book. They had no problem before they got trained to look things up in that book.

The tires worked fine (OK maybe a little too much sidewall wear, but that could have been my driving).

Just because it's not in their fitment guide, doesn't mean it won't be fine.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top