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Erik Timmerman

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I was down at Mt Snow on Tuesday and Wednesday. On Wednesday you could see that they were making snow over at Haystack. My comment was "well, I guess the power is still on over there". That mountain is so small! On Tuesday night with a full moon you could see the trails of Haystack and Mt Snow, and... well it's just so small!
 

LKLA

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I was down at Mt Snow on Tuesday and Wednesday. On Wednesday you could see that they were making snow over at Haystack. My comment was "well, I guess the power is still on over there". That mountain is so small! On Tuesday night with a full moon you could see the trails of Haystack and Mt Snow, and... well it's just so small!


Expensive things come in small packages ogsmile
 

James

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Well I guess the Yellowstone club works now, but didn't rhey go through like a $300 million embezzelment and bankruptcy scandal?
 

LKLA

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Well I guess the Yellowstone club works now, but didn't rhey go through like a $300 million embezzelment and bankruptcy scandal?

Yes, they did, sort of, long story.

At the end of the day what makes all the difference is that the Yellowstone Club is in Big Sky, Montana where they have 2,700 vertical feet with a peak elevation of 9,860 feet, 100+ trails and average over 300 inches of snow a year, while the Hermitage Club is in West Dover, Vermont...
 

NESkier_26

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I'd love to see The Hermitage Club's business plan. The $10,000 assessment to cover a $5 million operating deficit seems to suggest that they currently have 500 members (assuming THC expected 100% of the members to contribute). I wonder how many they are targeting? An additional 55 members at the full rack rate would cover the operating shortfall, but the fact that they haven't been paying bills suggests that they aren't getting many existing members to pay the assessment nor getting many new members to join (and the current publicity ain't helping them there). So presumably they are incurring additional operating deficits every month. And the news in October that they were seeking $20 - $30 million in additional capital investments likely means they are seeking close to 1,000 members at the current rack rates.

If my numbers are close to being right, it's hard to see them ever executing on their full business plan for the foreseeable future. And for anyone currently on the fence about joining, why join now and risk flushing $80k down the toilet when you can wait til post-bankruptcy/reorganization and make a decision then? I don't wish THC ill, but I really doubt that the existing business survives this crisis.
 

Uncle Louie

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you can wait til post-bankruptcy/reorganization and make a decision then? I don't wish THC ill, but I really doubt that the existing business survives this crisis.

Anybody who has spent any time in the Deerfield Valley well knows that bankruptcy has been Haystack's history.

Anyone know if Mt. Snow ever got the water rights from the Haystack, and if they still have them ?
 

K2 Rat

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Anybody who has spent any time in the Deerfield Valley well knows that bankruptcy has been Haystack's history.

Anyone know if Mt. Snow ever got the water rights from the Haystack, and if they still have them ?

water rights was part of the sale contract when Mt Snow sold Haystack.. But with the completion of the West Lake, Mt Snow is not pulling water from Haystack anymore. I think they had a year left in the water rights, but gave them up as they have plenty of their own water now.
 

LegacyGT

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water rights was part of the sale contract when Mt Snow sold Haystack.. But with the completion of the West Lake, Mt Snow is not pulling water from Haystack anymore.
Most of the way through season 1, it's very hard to know if this West Lake project panned out. Mt. Snow did not blow a lot of snow this year. This is not to criticize the snow they did blow. It was top notch and their investment in system-wide upgrades was clear in the in the number of trails they could be blowing on at once. That said, they have blown as little snow as possible. Their operative term this season has been "re-surfacing" which has meant blowing snow to fix trails following rain or thaws. They have not be blowing to build a base as they have in the past. There was a snowstorm on Christmas that opened up most of the mountain and they pretty much stopped blowing snow until the next rainstorm (late January) depleted the trail count. That's been the story this season. They again blew snow following the next thaw. But you did not see them building up a meaningful base anywhere aside from the huge jumps in the terrain parks. This is surprising to me because the West Lake was supposed to offer a huge reservoir of water and they haven't really taken advantage of that.
 

LKLA

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Most of the way through season 1, it's very hard to know if this West Lake project panned out. Mt. Snow did not blow a lot of snow this year. This is not to criticize the snow they did blow. It was top notch and their investment in system-wide upgrades was clear in the in the number of trails they could be blowing on at once. That said, they have blown as little snow as possible. Their operative term this season has been "re-surfacing" which has meant blowing snow to fix trails following rain or thaws. They have not be blowing to build a base as they have in the past. There was a snowstorm on Christmas that opened up most of the mountain and they pretty much stopped blowing snow until the next rainstorm (late January) depleted the trail count. That's been the story this season. They again blew snow following the next thaw. But you did not see them building up a meaningful base anywhere aside from the huge jumps in the terrain parks. This is surprising to me because the West Lake was supposed to offer a huge reservoir of water and they haven't really taken advantage of that.


That has been the story - sad reality - across just about every mountain in the Northeast this season.

Most mountains have seen extreme levels of weather variability. While in the past weather patterns were a matter of weeks, this season they have been a matter of days. This has basically made it impossible (and/or prohibitively expensive) to make snow in any significant amounts. Many mountains have struggled to simply groom the more popular trails, least of all make snow.

Mount Snow invested in the West Lake project not just to make snow to support for the current set-up. They made the investment in order to "support" the mountain when they complete the significant expansion at Carinthia, which includes a huge lodge that is about 50% complete as well as 100+ residential units that will be built around the lodge in the near future. They wanted to be able to support all those extra visitors both by adding another gate way on and off the mountain as well as with added snow making capacity. Perhaps they will also look to add a few more trails as well. Makes perfect sense!

If you are in Southern Vermont, the one investment that will pay off 9 out of 10 seasons is snow making :)
 

LegacyGT

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Most mountains have seen extreme levels of weather variability. While in the past weather patterns were a matter of weeks, this season they have been a matter of days. This has basically made it impossible (and/or prohibitively expensive) to make snow in any significant amounts. Many mountains have struggled to simply groom the more popular trails, least of all make snow.

Yes, weather is a factor. But there's some decision-making going on here as well. For example, there was a snowstorm on Christmas that opened up the entire mountain. The next 3 weeks had frigid temperatures and they barely blew any snow at all. In past years you could count on snow being blown on a trail or two every day when temperatures were cold enough, to open new terrain or build a base on existing terrain. This no longer seems to be the case. There has been almost no base-building this year. This season they have blown only when necessary.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread. Back to the Hermitage Club, I wonder how their snowmaking is holding up.
 

LKLA

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Yes, weather is a factor. But there's some decision-making going on here as well. For example, there was a snowstorm on Christmas that opened up the entire mountain. The next 3 weeks had frigid temperatures and they barely blew any snow at all. In past years you could count on snow being blown on a trail or two every day when temperatures were cold enough, to open new terrain or build a base on existing terrain. This no longer seems to be the case. There has been almost no base-building this year. This season they have blown only when necessary.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread. Back to the Hermitage Club, I wonder how their snowmaking is holding up.

Weather and economics! Don't need too many other reasons. Not sure temps below zero are ideal snow making conditions. As you point out the temps around and right after Christmas were insanely low. I remember being out one day in -32 degrees at the base.

Your experience at Mount Snow is identical to my experience at EVERY mountain that I have skied at or just about every mountain I have heard others talk about in the Northeast this season. It is by no means a Mount Snow specific thing.

Back to Haystack, I think this might be the last season we see that place in operation.
 

Mike75

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I went to Hermitage a few weeks ago and was unimpressed with the grooming. Death cookies abounded. Especially since I went to Bromley and Stratton the same weekend and the grooming was far superior. Was really surprising, considering grooming is one of the main selling points. The heated bubble six pack is very nice though.:thumb:
From what I've heard, there are several factions of members who are angling to replace the current management, but none of them have enough support on their own to do so. I don't know why anyone would want to join while the place is in so much turmoil. Seems like the place has turned into a real estate play, but the real estate isn't worth as much without the ski area. I suppose the proximity to Mount Snow is worth something, but then why not just buy at Mount Snow?
 

LKLA

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I went to Hermitage a few weeks ago and was unimpressed with the grooming. Death cookies abounded. Especially since I went to Bromley and Stratton the same weekend and the grooming was far superior. Was really surprising, considering grooming is one of the main selling points. The heated bubble six pack is very nice though.:thumb:
From what I've heard, there are several factions of members who are angling to replace the current management, but none of them have enough support on their own to do so. I don't know why anyone would want to join while the place is in so much turmoil. Seems like the place has turned into a real estate play, but the real estate isn't worth as much without the ski area. I suppose the proximity to Mount Snow is worth something, but then why not just buy at Mount Snow?

And with Mt Snow looking to build 100+ ski in/out units in the next couple of years, the real estate at Hermitage will likely be worth even less.
 

x10003q

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Lots of bad news for the Club. Accusations of illegal demands for real estate kickbacks, firing of whistle blowers, a coup by members, a good portion of the staff laid off, and, for a grand finale, a sex discrimination and retaliation complaint against the company and its CEO.

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...nt--kickback-plan-?instance=home_news_bullets
http://www.reformer.com/stories/coup-in-the-making-at-hermitage,532479
http://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/rapid-response-at-the-hermitage-club,532644
http://www.reformer.com/stories/sex-discrimination-alleged-at-hermitage,532668
 
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RJS

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Lots of bad news for the Club. Accusations of illegal demands for real estate kickbacks, firing of whistle blowers, a coup by members, a good portion of the staff laid off, and, for a grand finale, a sex discrimination and retaliation complaint against the company and its CEO.

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...nt--kickback-plan-?instance=home_news_bullets
http://www.reformer.com/stories/coup-in-the-making-at-hermitage,532479
http://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/rapid-response-at-the-hermitage-club,532644
http://www.reformer.com/stories/sex-discrimination-alleged-at-hermitage,532668

Wow, that's crazy. A lot of bad news all piling up.

I remember first hearing about the Hermitage Club from seeing ads on garbage bins around Boston, including one or two on the Greenway.
 

LegacyGT

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I remember first hearing about the Hermitage Club from seeing ads on garbage bins around Boston, including one or two on the Greenway.
Ads were also on garbage bins in NYC. At the time I thought it was an odd association to develop.

Lots of bad news for the Club. Accusations of illegal demands for real estate kickbacks, firing of whistle blowers, a coup by members, a good portion of the staff laid off, and, for a grand finale, a sex discrimination and retaliation complaint against the company and its CEO.
Bad news can pile up when there's something shady at the core and I think it's the case here. The whole thing feels like a pyramid scheme. I don't think the founder/owner is necessarily trying to make a killing or rip anyone off. He was plenty wealthy already and seemed mostly interested in building something special. But, from the start, the whole thing has been geared towards wooing the next set of members. When the operation was first getting started (before the skiing was fully realized) they had a small skating rink and tubing hill. Both were fun and my family would go. There would be staff there to collect fees, tend a fire pit, etc. But within a few months, the rink and tubing hill were neglected as they were focusing on sleigh rides and snowshoeing. Then it was cat tours up the mountain. Whatever was the new thing got the attention and the other attractions would be neglected. There were times I'd stop in the Inn for a drink and sit for 45 minutes waiting for somebody to take my credit card before being told we could just leave...it was on the house. All because the staff was distracted by whatever new endeavor was underway. This was going on over 5 years ago. I haven't spent any time there more recently but I do follow the web site, emails and news and it doesn't seem like anything has changed. It's a new lift or the new lodge (spectacular by the way). Musical acts (usually Top 40 bands from the 80s and 90s). Next a new hotel. Plus all the real estate development. And the engine of the whole operation seems to be new members and real estate sales (note that real estate squabbles are at the heart of 1 or 2 of those stories). The sense is that the operations are not sustainable on an ongoing basis. They need to constantly chase the next members and that's not necessarily consistent with the interests of existing members.
 

LegacyGT

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Interesting examples of neglect. Did not know that was how Hermitage started!
I wouldn't say that's how they started. But for the first few years the bulk of the operation was working out of the Hermitage Inn with tubing, snowmobiling, horses, etc. as outdoors activities. (The Inn is also lovely although in more of a traditional VT Inn kind of way than in a luxury ski club kind of way.) I believe that Barnes owned the Inn before purchasing Haystack.
 

CalG

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Yes, they did, sort of, long story.

At the end of the day what makes all the difference is that the Yellowstone Club is in Big Sky, Montana where they have 2,700 vertical feet with a peak elevation of 9,860 feet, 100+ trails and average over 300 inches of snow a year, while the Hermitage Club is in West Dover, Vermont...

Do you think people with money enough really care about that stuff (stats)?
It's only the bragging rights that are wanted.
 

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