Hard topic to talk about - Suicide among athletes

[raytseng]

To add on to that, it's more than just looking at the full blown clinically depressed or severely suicidal who score the 20+ or 30+ on the depression scale.

In my opinion, far more devastating from a societaly perspective are the much larger chunk of people are "mildly depressed" and score the 7-20 range, but appear for the most part normal and "fine", and go through the motions in life and grind it out, but aren't really "happy" or fulfilled.
This mildly depressed group is where so much potential is at risk. As just an example in career, they have a job versus just being a hermit. But they hate their job, call in sick more frequently even if they aren't sick, or zone out and don't care to get ahead; and their future, their family and career is currently at risk because they aren't feeling well and don't know how to stop feeling the nothingness.
This is the group that could more easily work their way back to "symptom free", and has a lot to gain (or a lot to lose) in that moment in time in getting their mental health back on the right track; versus the shut-in who's gonna need a lot of help just to face the day and has the much longer path ahead.

Even those that are generally "normal" and score 1-7 still could take some tips to get rid of a point or two.

Just about everyone could benefit from some tips or techniques and education on mental health, just like everyone could use a basic education on financial matters.

 

[fatbob]

In my opinion, far more devastating from a societaly perspective are the much larger chunk of people are "mildly depressed" and score the 7-20 range, but appear for the most part normal and "fine", and go through the motions in life and grind it out, but aren't really "happy" or fulfilled.
This mildly depressed group is where so much potential is at risk. As just an example in career, they have a job versus just being a hermit. But they hate their job, call in sick more frequently even if they aren't sick, or zone out and don't care to get ahead; and their future, their family and career is currently at risk because they aren't feeling well and don't know how to stop feeling the nothingness.

Is this part of the human condition though? Not everyone has a job which is totally convergent with things that make them happy and not everyone can rise to the top of every chosen career. Should people feel bad that they choose to settle at a level even if they have higher potential? Is this type of thing self-perpetuating - those that are better at faking or convincing themselves that they are more positive get fewer knockbacks?

Personally I tend to believe that knowing who you are and being ok with it is the key to good mental health not comparing yourself to anyone else. The rat race of life however tries to encourage that comparison all the time.

 

[AmyPJ]

@raytseng and @fatbob, your above posts are spot-on, I think. Those who have less-than-satisfying jobs, for instance, do SO much better if they have a hobby(s) that they are passionate about, or a sport or activity that they pursue with great interest. It's all about balance. But, sometimes finding that purpose is really hard. This could be why it's important to expose kids to a variety of sports and hobbies to see what "sticks".

Interestingly, the military medical facilities have you fill out a form every time you are seen asking if you have been "sad" or felt suicidal. Seems to miss the mark. I'm certain that someone feeling suicidal is highly unlikely to mark "yes" on a piece of paper that can be viewed theoretically by anyone. I want to say that I appreciate their effort, but I really don't. Why wouldn't the provider ask that question face-to-face?

 

[Monique]

If family and friends, coworkers etc. stand bye, say nothing and do nothing until the person in crisis see's a socalled expert then chances are they are already dead.

Besides the craziest people I have ever known were psychologists or child psychologists.

In case this is in response to my post - I'm not asking anyone to hold off on reaching out. Reach out! Just don't try to diagnose them.

The second part of your quote is perhaps meant in jest, but that attitude can contribute to people avoiding professional help when they need it. And it doesn't work as a generalization. i.e. even if you're correct that "the craziest people are in psychology" - it does not follow then that "you're likely to end up being treated by a crazy person." There's enough stigma that keeps people from seeking the help they need. Please don't add to it.

 

[Lorenzzo]

A friend of the family's son recently committed suicide. Those in my family ask ourselves what could we have done? This individual was a physician, brilliant but oh so troubled. His father was a prosecutor. He grew up with threats hanging over the family and bodyguards. No shortage of publicity but I won't id.

We didn't see his anti-social behavior towards us as a sign of trouble, we thought he didn't like us or wanted distance. So if we had it to do over again we'd have tried harder to see through it, been more accepting and found ways to help. The takeaway for my family is to take it less personally when people don't treat us the way we might like and look a little deeper. It's too easy to just turn away.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I don't have anything to add other than I used to be very hard on this subject but nowadays I am completely sympathetic and just want to hug everyone and help somehow.. A good friend of mine lost her husband to suicide and the son of a friend of a friend took his own life. Especially given all the folks you hear about, musicians included who have taken their lives recently has really gotten to me. I just wish I could help them all. I feel for anyone who has to deal directly with this. A good friend of mine has had her hardships lately and every once in a while says something like I want to go be with my father now (he passed last year). This alarms me to no end. I always reach out to her and make sure I'm there in any way she needs me. I'm about to ask my friend who lost her husband for some links I can send Julie so that she feels like there's help out there.

 

[raytseng]

Is this part of the human condition though? Not everyone has a job which is totally convergent with things that make them happy and not everyone can rise to the top of every chosen career. Should people feel bad that they choose to settle at a level even if they have higher potential? Is this type of thing self-perpetuating - those that are better at faking or convincing themselves that they are more positive get fewer knockbacks?

Personally I tend to believe that knowing who you are and being ok with it is the key to good mental health not comparing yourself to anyone else. The rat race of life however tries to encourage that comparison all the time.

Please take a look at the depression scale and questions to see what they ask if you sre not familiar. I dont have the answers and i didnt say how to solve it other than you can improve your score and change but takes work (notice not improve your career).

The scale is self scoring of how you feel, its not a judgement of your career or even a job happiness index. Im not talking about the career being the cause or blame of the depression. if you hate your job that's not depression cause at least you feel something. But i picked the effects of depression on the career as they are drastic from a societal perspective, and easiest example I had in mind. The people with points call in sick when they arent physically sick (and not having an awesome ferris beullers dayoff) or are self sabotaging their future and they know it. It isnt the hot shot lawyer who consciously quits and became a ski bum and is happy. Maybe you are right that sometimes there is a feedback loop and the job isn't helping the depression, but every case is different. i do know the "If only i were a skibum and didnt have to work this lousy job i wouldn't feel this way" line of thinking likley is a cognitive distortion and wont work for those that really are depressed to get better.

So if you are scoring on the scale, you are having effects and you dont want to feel that way. Its worth it to try techniques or get help to lower that it.
(the answers, as you say, might not change the situation but just getting the bottom of it and how you view or deal with lifes situations).

 

[Monique]

if you hate your job that's not depression cause at least you feel something.

Thank you. This is a common misperception - that depression is unhappiness. That's sort of it, but there are many possible symptoms, and a big one is just extreme inability to motivate or to feel. You know that you used to enjoy hanging out with your friends, but now it seems like too much work. You remember that you enjoyed skiing, but now you can't imagine feeling like that about anything. You know you need to do better at your job, but it seems so overwhelming, and you can't focus ... then you sleep 14 hours and still feel exhausted, or maybe you keep yourself awake until you're so exhausted you fall asleep at the keyboard, because anxiety and depression are close cousins.

 

[Jimdh]

Monique is correct. The opposite of happiness is not depression; the opposite of Happy is Sad. Depression is a whole other animal. Mental health professionals are vital to the diagnosis and treatment of depression; professional counseling often helps, and may either be with or without medication. But if medication is called for, there can be no stigma attached to taking it and it needs to be taken. Society understands taking insulin for diabetes - we should also understand that medication for depression or other mental illness is no different: it is simply treatment for a real disease.

 

[scott43]

I always tell people, the death knell for a marriage isn't anger, it's apathy.

 

[Tricia]

I always tell people, the death knell for a marriage isn't anger, it's apathy.

There you have it.
I talked to my counselor a lot about the fact that I didn't hate, I just didn't care.
Things are different now.

 

[scott43]

There you have it.
I talked to my counselor a lot about the fact that I didn't hate, I just didn't care.
Things are different now.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you hate Phil...

 

[AmyPJ]

A friend of the family's son recently committed suicide. Those in my family ask ourselves what could we have done? This individual was a physician, brilliant but oh so troubled. His father was a prosecutor. He grew up with threats hanging over the family and bodyguards. No shortage of publicity but I won't id.

We didn't see his anti-social behavior towards us as a sign of trouble, we thought he didn't like us or wanted distance. So if we had it to do over again we'd have tried harder to see through it, been more accepting and found ways to help. The takeaway for my family is to take it less personally when people don't treat us the way we might like and look a little deeper. It's too easy to just turn away.

This is sad. It's so hard to view things like this with hindsight, but the "Never Make Assumptions" of the 4 Agreements really comes into play here. It's so often the most gifted amongst us who suffer the most and are VERY adept at hiding it.

As for depression--let's just say divorcing after being with the same person for 21 years this past year has sent me into depths I didn't know existed. Very low dose anti-depressants work wonders but give me horrible insomnia. I cycle on and off of them, and while I'm off of them, I accomplish about nothing other than riding my bike and making my daughter lunch. When I'm ON them, I own the world and make great strides towards a wonderful future, my sense of humor and wit returns, and I'm bolder on the bike. I also ruminate FAR less. (My nickname as a kid was Worry Wart.) My daughter was diagnosed autistic this summer at age 10, and I watch her like a hawk now and take her to therapy weekly. She and I are peas in a pod.

I have friends who have never been depressed and who have no clue or understanding of how it feels. They truly don't get it. I am rather envious

My best advice if you see a friend or family member who seems to be in a "funk" is to not just advise them to get help, but to HELP them get that help. Because picking up the phone and being proactive when you are in the depths of depression is REALLY difficult.

 

[David Chaus]

Interesting observations all around in this thread. BTW a diagnosis of PTSD is stronger indicator of risk for suicide than depression.

As some of you know, I am a psychotherapist (depending on mispronunciation, a psycho therapist), and while I see a lot of clients for couples and relationship issues these days, I see my share clients with trauma, anxiety and depression. Just last week I called my county's triage line for crisis response due to a client who had expressed ongoing suicidal ideation, and stopped keeping appointments with me.

And FWIW I have an adult son with Autism Spectrum Disorder, diagnosed at age 3, who will be 30 next week.

That all said, I appreciate those who demonstrate compassion for those who are depressed, isolated, and suicidal. Antidotes to trauma and depression are many:

• exposure to daylight (we need 10,000 LUX for 30 minutes a day in the summer, up to 2 hours of daylight is needed in winter in northern latitudes, so light therapy boxes can help a lot)
• Moderate excessive, such as a brisk walk for 30-45 minutes, 3x a week
• Social engagement with others
• Limit rumination to 15 minutes at a time
• Omega 3 fatty acids - fish oil supplements have been demonstrated in several peer-reviewed studies to be as or more effective than anti-depressents
• Therapy. Therapy with a qualified professional has also been demonstrated to be more effective than anti-depressants
• Sleep. Many (I'd say most) people don't get enough sleep for the brain to properly function. We rely a bit too heavily on caffeine to keep us alert, but it masks the sleep deficits which impact emotional as well as cognitive functioning.

Keep up the good work you are all doing for those you care about.

 

[Core2]

• exposure to daylight (we need 10,000 LUX for 30 minutes a day in the summer, up to 2 hours of daylight is needed in winter in northern latitudes, so light therapy boxes can help a lot)
• Moderate excessive, such as a brisk walk for 30-45 minutes, 3x a week
• Social engagement with others
• Limit rumination to 15 minutes at a time
• Omega 3 fatty acids - fish oil supplements have been demonstrated in several peer-reviewed studies to be as or more effective than anti-depressents
• Therapy. Therapy with a qualified professional has also been demonstrated to be more effective than anti-depressants
• Sleep. Many (I'd say most) people don't get enough sleep for the brain to properly function. We rely a bit too heavily on caffeine to keep us alert, but it masks the sleep deficits which impact emotional as well as cognitive functioning.

Great tips, you forgot ski as much as possible though. How do you suggest limiting rumination? Is practicing mindfulness the key to this?

 

[Monique]

• Omega 3 fatty acids - fish oil supplements have been demonstrated in several peer-reviewed studies to be as or more effective than anti-depressents

• Therapy. Therapy with a qualified professional has also been demonstrated to be more effective than anti-depressants

I also found out the hard way that if a person is mildly bipolar, anti depressants can actually make the mood cycles worse. Of course, mildly bipolar's manic phase might be mild enough that they only get treated for depression, because manic just feels energetic and high-output. .... Being on the *right* med makes a world of difference. Doc assures me that many people in high-powered professions, like doctors and lawyers, have cyclothymia.

 

[David Chaus]

Great tips, you forgot ski as much as possible though. How do you suggest limiting rumination? Is practicing mindfulness the key to this?

Absolutely, ski as much as you can. Or rather, do whatever activites you enjoy and find meaningful.
How to limit rumination: use a timer. And yes, practice being mindful of when you start to ruminate and when you notice it, set the timer. Also plan ahead of time, when you are not ruminating, and have a list of diversions ready for when the rumination time limit is up.

I understand mindfulness as a process of curiosity, being curious about your experience, the "who, what, when, where and how" observations. Forget about "why." It's a never-ending rabbit hole, that "why."

I also found out the hard way that if a person is mildly bipolar, anti depressants can actually make the mood cycles worse. Of course, mildly bipolar's manic phase might be mild enough that they only get treated for depression, because manic just feels energetic and high-output. .... Being on the *right* med makes a world of difference. Doc assures me that many people in high-powered professions, like doctors and lawyers, have cyclothymia.

Yup. Cyclothymia refers to "mania lite" episodes, without the clinical depression episodes. I can see where people who are always on the go might exhibit those traits, though I wonder whether it's an adaptation to the environment. If those same doctors and lawyers worked in a low-stress environment, would they still exhibit the go-go-go behavior?

By "mildly bipolar," that sounds more like Bipolar II in which the mania is not quite as bat-shit manic, for as long a period of time, though the depression part is still significant. The first line treatments for meds are typically Lamotrigine (Lamictal) alone as a mood stabilizer, without an antidepressant. Bipolar is tricky when not properly diagnosed, as the depression is often obvious so that's what gets medicated, which elevates mood and triggers mania.

All that said, the lifestyle choices I mentioned above will help any of these conditions.

 

[Monique]

@David Chaus PM otw just because we're getting in the weeds - I'm def not a medical expert. I just wanted to call out the "anti depressants can actually make things worse if it's a misdiagnosis" thing, which I gather is correct based on "Bipolar is tricky when not properly diagnosed, as the depression is often obvious so that's what gets medicated, which elevates mood and triggers mania. "

 

[raytseng]

Great tips, you forgot ski as much as possible though. How do you suggest limiting rumination? Is practicing mindfulness the key to this?

There are lots of techniques, and just like ski tips, there's no 1 perfect tip; and some work only some of the time for only some people. You have to keep adding the tools to your belt and try different things and find what helps.

This is where the work comes into play.

Two that come to mind, but a professional or book will have many more for you to try.

1) You have to break out pen and paper and put down on paper what is upsetting you and work through either the the bottom of it (either a funnel of whys or what-if that happened until you get to the ridiculousness of the fear). But you must do it on paper for it to lose it's power..
There are more complicated techniques breaking down a worry or fear anxiety or upsetting issue on paper, some but that's more detailed than I can competently explain.

2nd) is you set aside worry windows and set aside a specific time to think over the issue for specific time.

3) there are also role play and other exercises you can do with a partner or helper, where after you explain the problem, your friend pretends they are the one with the problem, and you are the one questioning them or trying to help them, but I'll leave it for you to read up or look for how that's supposed to work as I won't do it justice.

Just like ski drills, there are books which go over the specific techniques and perhaps many won't help, but you have to work and keep trying until you find the tip/technique that does.

 

[ella_g]

I was going to opt out of this conversation but in the spirit of talking more I'll opt in. My mom is bipolar with accompanying addiction/ self medicating issues, and it's been a humbling and quite frankly wild ride trying to help her get what she needs to be ok. @AmyPJ i like what you said about needing to help people get help, it's taken me a long time to grasp this but when my moms in a dark place she can't do what she needs to do without someone else (that might mean physically picking her up and carrying her to the car to go to the hospital to be admitted to locked ward detox, or more mundane stuff like checking in to make sure she has plans with friends for the day and isn't getting isolated). For a long time her mental illness was our big family secret (she's a college professor and when she's ok is terrific, dynamic, loved by her students, writes books etc) but in the last 5 years shes had a dramatic and pretty public downward spiral, and since a hospital stay 2 yrs ago has opted to be more open with family and friends (maybe some of her willingness has to do with a cultural shift but I think there's still a lot of stigmatization). The process of her being willing to reveal her 'true self,' struggles and darkness has not been pretty or delightful but the honesty is refreshing. It also just gives perspective-- her daily life is difficult, in a way mine never will be, and in a way I didn't understand or appreciate until recently. It's also made me want to spend as much time as I can, and have my kids spend as much time as they can, doing stuff they love. Some people go through long phases where they don't see the light, and struggle on their best days. If you're able to have a fun day doing something you love -- you are lucky -- go for it. No one wants to talk about this stuff, it's difficult and embarrassing and personal and can just feel so icky. But it can also be kind of amazing to really get to know people, everyone's so radically different, temperamentaly, biochemically, just in the way they perceive things & deal with life. I'm not sure if I have a point, just that I do believe there's good to be found in having these conversations.