Feeling of worn-out skis on ice and glaze

[snoob]

Hi all,

I have been skiing on the Fischer RC4 WC RC, a cheater GS in either a 17 or 18m radius. I think these skis are worn out but I'm having trouble confirming it. Would being worn out lead to a loss of grip on glaze at higher speeds? What are some other symptoms of a ski being worn out?

I believe they have had around 150 days on them on east coast hardpack/ice with occasional time in bumps. I got them at the end of 2013.

 

[HeluvaSkier]

The glare ice will feel 'noisy' meaning the ski will not feel nearly as damp as it did when new. It will feel like it won't grip like a ski that is base-high (even though if the tune is good, spent skis will have hold in reasonable turns). At 150 days, they are likely cooked - especially if you skied them in bumps. My carving skis never go into bumps because they never come out the same... even after one run.

 

[Kiki]

How many days does one normally get out of a pair of skis?

 

[Sibhusky]

Depends on the ski and the skier. 100-200 days might be normal. They last longer the less money you have.

Current skis have 141 and 158 days. Prior two pair had 184 and 206 days. Didn't look back farther to see what earlier ones had. By all accounts I should be in the market. But I'm in no rush.

 

[trailtrimmer]

If they are in good tune and sharp, then I'd suspect the ski losing it's pop. If they have a 2 degree side bevel, try a 3, it makes a big difference.

 

[Dakine]

I have never been able to find any decent literature on the subject of skis "wearing out".
The individual components of a ski, the titanal, the glue and the plastics don't wear out.
The core material is a suspect, plastic foam cored skis are a thing of the past because this core material lost its structural properties quite quickly.
As usual, I think HelluvaSkier is on the right track.
I think skis will last a very long time if they are never stressed beyond some limit.
A light, smooth skier that doesn't go very fast and never bends the ski significantly while skiing or otherwise can have skis that last virtually forever.
A heavy, strong skier like Hellava can destroy a pair in one bump run without visible damage.
Internal delaminations from the rubber damping layer would produce just the behavior he describes even if they aren't visibly bent.
I cringe when I see a big guy "flex" a new pair in a ski shop.
Skis are intended to be loaded all along the length not at three points and the stresses get very high in this situation.
Most good skis are retired due to base and edge wear well before they lose performance if they are skied within their performance limits.
If not, the core material will lose properties depending on the degree of overstress..
Herein lies a problem.
Wood is technically a foam with oriented cells and no plastic core material can match its evolution engineered properties.
Trees have had aeons of evolution to get great flex properties.
Sadly, good cheap wood core material has become very scarce.
Volkl used to advertise core wood from their own forest and it was very good wood indeed.
Volkl built their rep on this material and became undistinguished when they started using commodity woods.
I expect the one thing you get in a high end ski is very good core wood which makes them last until the bases or edges are gone.
My thoughts, at least.........
It would be very interesting to measure the flexural resonances of a pair as they were used up.
For ski science's sake, I could make measurements if someone wanted to do the skiing part.

 

[BGreen]

Get a stone grind from someone who really knows what the are doing. No more than 0.5 on the base edge, make sure the bevel doesn’t extend into the base. See if the feel changes. Unless you are racing the ski is probably fine. If you are racing, give them to a non-racing friend.

 

[crgildart]

I've been through this over and over in my 40 years on skis. It's usually a state of denial that my favorite daily driver skis might be done or a lust for something shiny and new. In the end it doesn't matter. For the former I try a full tune and take them back out only to find they are only slightly better for a couple days then back to the noodley mess they have dilapidated to. Might also be your lust for something new telling you they are shot when they are actually skiing fine. I usually start to wonder about a pair of skis after about 50 days and certainly after 100 solid ski days. No way they are still as stable after 100 hard charging, bell to bell days as they were at 10 days even if the camber looks the same.

Bottom line, if you aren't as happy with them as you'd like to be replace them.. Trying a demo of a similar ski can give yo a very quick, less subjective answer on if it is the ski or your love for them that is failing..

 

[HeluvaSkier]

I have two pairs of 176 Blossom White Outs... One is a 2012 and one is a 2017. The 2012 has maybe 50 half-days on them... max... likely less. The 2017 has less than 3. The skis are identical in every way, except how they ski. The 2012 has less grip, is less damp, and refuses to hold an edge in powerful high-angle turns on steep, hard snow (and these are razor-sharp skis with a .5 degree base bevel). It also comes back from a hard ski day de-cambered (1cm tip and tail). The big deterioration point: 5 very hard bump runs I did on them back in 2014 or 2015. That's all it took. 5 hard bump runs. On packed powder and even non-refrozen hard pack (e.g. western snow or man made snow) the skis are still a dream to be on. On eastern granular and ice (anything refrozen), the skis are nothing short of terrifying if the pilot is intending to ski them on steep terrain at speed. Note, this is not a reflection on Blossom quality... they are top-notch... I've learned the hard way that I can do this with pretty-much any ski I put on my feet (imagine my sadness when I figured this out with a WC SL ski). So now, I have dedicated bump skis. Moral of the story: intended snow surface makes a difference on what 'toast' really means for a ski.

 

[BGreen]

It also comes back from a hard ski day de-cambered (1cm tip and tail).

Wow.

 

[François Pugh]

If the skis have some camber, they will put pressure on the tip and tail, even before you start de-cambering them, and increase the pressure as you decamber them more. If the skis have no camber, you are starting with zero pressure on the tips and tails. So how good the camber is provides good insight. Also hand flexing them provides good insight, if you know what to look for.

How many extra flops they make when you land some air is also a good indication of worn skis.

 

[snoob]

Update: I have purchased some Rossignol FIS slalom skis - they are heavy, grippy, and allow me to ski properly.

The Fischers were worn out. None of the expert movements we're working on would hold on the ice, and the entire ski felt like it was constantly twisting out from underfoot when on a steered carve. On these Rossignols, the grip is there. Even in moments of no grip, it's a stable feeling underfoot - the ski isn't wildly twisting, so I'm able to make effective movements. In contrast, I had to keep the Fischers pretty much underneath my body the whole time or apply very little pressure; moving mass into them laterally just led to the skis breaking away.

The Rossignol FIS ski feels like a bullet train at 500km/hr, where the worn out Fischer feels like riding a rickety wagon at 20km/hr. (in new snow or just non-ice conditions, the Fischer is fine.)

Interestingly I had also demoed a Rossignol Hero ST TI yesterday - it felt nearly as gripless as my Fischer. My thought is the tune on that ski was bad (the rental guy initially tried handing me a pair with a giant hanging burr, telling me how sharp it was ). It would be nice to know if a new pair with a solid tune would hold the same grip as this FIS SL ski.

As a heads-up for those advocating a base grind: This was not a base grind issue as they had just been ground a couple of weeks prior. But I appreciate that a ski that needs a base grind would feel similar. Also not a side edge angle issue (I tune to 3 degrees).

The skis were just dead. Or at least too dead for eastern ice. Thanks all!

 

[Dakine]

Ice is where you will know for sure if skis are shot.