Living in the Midwest, bumps are almost non-existent. Good instructors are also hard to find. The above certainly sounds like me. Any suggetions(drills) to improve that?
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Drills for fore-aft pressure?
- Thread starter Slim
- Start date
Living in the Midwest, bumps are almost non-existent. Good instructors are also hard to find. The above certainly sounds like me. Any suggetions(drills) to improve that?
We had a thread on this, earlier
https://www.pugski.com/threads/tips-and-drills-for-for-aft-balance.5220/
https://www.pugski.com/threads/tips-and-drills-for-for-aft-balance.5220/
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- Dec 21, 2015
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well first stop calling its pressure. Pressure is only a feedback mechanism. Fore and aft balance is what you are actually working on.
From easiest to hardest
Easy
Do on green terrain first
Straight line
shuffle IE the feet move against each other
two footed shuffle IE both feet move together
Repeat both above while turning.
Step straight up and down keeping ski level
Step lifting tail up
Step lifting tip up
Backwards wedge
backwards wedge turn
focus on moving with your skis while skiing backward IE your COM will actually move back.
Slightly harder still done on green terrain first
Stork Turn ski with the inside skis tail lifted, this can be repeat in all turns and all terrain as your skills grow.
Range of motion turns - go down the hill and move as far forward as possible then move as far back as possible recommend never doing this above a blue groomers.
One ski straight run to turn
Take off a ski. Glide down a gentle hill on just one ski and turn as such so that you making a one ski turn just on the "outside" ski. IE right ski will turn left, left ski will turn right. This is extremely hard to do for most people who are back.
Moderately hard
Do both on blue terrain, for an added challenge try them on flatter terrain.
Side slip
Falling Leaf
Green Terrain
Backward skiing with a matched turn finish, wedge entry.
Hard
Do these on blue terrain
Braquage - fast falling leaf done with counter
Fancy Falling Leaf - falling leaf done with a pivot between them. Google and youll find my video.
Flappers straight run - Pull both heel up towards you butt as you press the tips into the snow, progress to do them at the transition of turn.
Wirly Birds - spin all the ways around going down the hill. Becareful of online videos of these the BASI instructors in particular are pretty awful at them,.
Expert
Do these on blue terrain
Pivot Slips, its honestly at its core a rotary drill but fore and aft balance issue are why most people are unable to do it.
Green Terrain
Backwards skiing entirely matched
Dolphin Traverse its easy to learn in a bump field first. Basically pull your tips up over a bump and then push them down the back side.
High Expert
Blue terrain
Backside pivot slips - like pivot slips but done with the tips up the hill.
Dolphin turns - google certain youll find my video
backwards skiing on blue terrain matched skis
just for fun/ high expert messing around.
Butters - park trick learning to rotate around the tips and tails of your skis. Butters can actually be useful in all mountain skiing
Revert carve a trick I have stolen from snowboards and I never see other skiers do its but its tons of fun. Start with carving down the hill and mid carve turns around and finish the carve backwards. For added bonus see if you can 180 out from backwards and start the carve right away going forward.
From easiest to hardest
Easy
Do on green terrain first
Straight line
shuffle IE the feet move against each other
two footed shuffle IE both feet move together
Repeat both above while turning.
Step straight up and down keeping ski level
Step lifting tail up
Step lifting tip up
Backwards wedge
backwards wedge turn
focus on moving with your skis while skiing backward IE your COM will actually move back.
Slightly harder still done on green terrain first
Stork Turn ski with the inside skis tail lifted, this can be repeat in all turns and all terrain as your skills grow.
Range of motion turns - go down the hill and move as far forward as possible then move as far back as possible recommend never doing this above a blue groomers.
One ski straight run to turn
Take off a ski. Glide down a gentle hill on just one ski and turn as such so that you making a one ski turn just on the "outside" ski. IE right ski will turn left, left ski will turn right. This is extremely hard to do for most people who are back.
Moderately hard
Do both on blue terrain, for an added challenge try them on flatter terrain.
Side slip
Falling Leaf
Green Terrain
Backward skiing with a matched turn finish, wedge entry.
Hard
Do these on blue terrain
Braquage - fast falling leaf done with counter
Fancy Falling Leaf - falling leaf done with a pivot between them. Google and youll find my video.
Flappers straight run - Pull both heel up towards you butt as you press the tips into the snow, progress to do them at the transition of turn.
Wirly Birds - spin all the ways around going down the hill. Becareful of online videos of these the BASI instructors in particular are pretty awful at them,.
Expert
Do these on blue terrain
Pivot Slips, its honestly at its core a rotary drill but fore and aft balance issue are why most people are unable to do it.
Green Terrain
Backwards skiing entirely matched
Dolphin Traverse its easy to learn in a bump field first. Basically pull your tips up over a bump and then push them down the back side.
High Expert
Blue terrain
Backside pivot slips - like pivot slips but done with the tips up the hill.
Dolphin turns - google certain youll find my video
backwards skiing on blue terrain matched skis
just for fun/ high expert messing around.
Butters - park trick learning to rotate around the tips and tails of your skis. Butters can actually be useful in all mountain skiing
Revert carve a trick I have stolen from snowboards and I never see other skiers do its but its tons of fun. Start with carving down the hill and mid carve turns around and finish the carve backwards. For added bonus see if you can 180 out from backwards and start the carve right away going forward.
A good list of drills from Josh. Feeling no need to ad to that comes the following diatribe of thoughts stirred by the thread and a root canal without novocaine for the less technically inclined.
The quoted statement is very true. The reason I believe that is true is because the steeper the terrain, the more we need to pressure the shovels at turn phase one. The conundrum with this is that the steeper the ski itself is pitched in the fall line, the more difficult fore/aft control of the ski becomes. The length of the balance point or, sweet spot on a ski shrinks as the ski slopes forward. To further the conundrum is the fear factor that goes up when we are asked to move our CoM forward as the slope steepens. More relevant in basic terms than moguls: “You can’t ski and the steeps prove it”.
The reason why many “good” carvers cannot pure carve on the steeps is because they start the turn from a centered stance which makes the ski go too fast to continue edge locking the ski. With the advent of the shaped ski, a technical epidemic occurred whereby many skiers learned to carve from center where we can do a lot by just tipping the ski and is why many have not really learned to truly “carve” the ski which means to run concentrated pressure from the tip to the tail through each and every turn as was a compelling requisite on carving straight skis. Tipping the ski from center really works well until either the slope gets too steep or too icy. “Rocking” the ski through the turn has two basic benefits: One is that the concentrated pressure on only a portion of the ski at a time provides more penetration into hard surfaces like ice and just the same way we use concentrated pressure on a running blade in order to carve a piece of wood. Try to push a blade directly down into the wood from center like a ski and the blade won’t penetrate the surface. That the pressure is “running” down the ski better allows the tail edge of the ski to more easily follows the cut precisely that the shovel initiates. Pressuring only the center of the ski causes a very tiny invisible amount of “brushing” of the edge where the tail is not in the exact same tiny cut on ice that the shovel started even though pencil thin tracks are left but only in the softer snow. Secondly, a purposeful fore to aft rocking of the ski allows a bent ski to carve an even slightly more rounded turn, more redirection, as a small form of speed control for edge locked turns that is very helpful on the steeps. Rocking fore aft ski pressure on edge locked turn will keep you pure carving longer as the slope steepens or hardens, thus producing better edge grip and a decreasing reliance on friction for speed control. A key/helpful focus on making this happen is attempting to always “bend the shovel before you bend the whole ski”.
Most or all high level coach’s and racer’s primary frame of reference are the two forces applied to the ski which are tipping and pressure. The term “pressure” is used all day long on the race hill. Announcers like B. Miller use the term very often. If it is ultimately the ski to snow interaction that we seek to produce and control, tipping and pressuring (left/right & fore/aft) the ski are going to be primary attributes to technique. Pressure is not just “feedback” it is both input and output of the highest order.
While it may not be everyone’s prefered frame of reference as with many other instructors that is OK. Though, I wouldn’t recommend discounting the term’s usefulness considering the coaching and ability hierarchy at play. It is also more important for an instructor to work with the student’s pre-existing frame of reference and understood terminology rather than to teach them yours in the small space of a lesson, private or otherwise. Unfortunately, there never seems to be enough time to teach a creative writing class while conducting a ski lesson. While it is interesting to read some of the instructors that commonly reference strict personal preferences on terminology and frames of reference, that seems to be more about personal instructor differentiation that is more based in ego than actual teaching. They often complain that a term is bad because of how or what it makes them think and then go on to assume that everyone thinks like them.
It doesn’t matter what the body is doing if the ski isn’t being pressured correctly. Pressuring the skis correctly is the answer to the question “why?” in regards to all or most of any instructors movement patterns that are recommended. Any time any of us are asked to do anything at all with our bodies by a coach or instructor that is responded to with the question “why?”, that answer always has to do with ski input. There are only two basic inputs to a ski: tipping and pressure (left/right, fore/aft). Skiing is body, equipment and slope. Because the equipment is between the body and slope, it should receive the primary directive to which everything else is secondary. Ski to snow interaction is very literally and figuratively where the rubber meets the road, hence the rational.
If a naked and empty ski, no bindings or skier, had to take its own course down the slope and had the magical power to make itself apply perfect turns to the ground with the most efficiency possible, it would tip and pressure itself to perfection. Imagine, conceive, explore and familiarize all that a ski would want to do without you and then get on it and start matching and providing the “ski’s” prefered motor patterns. Sometimes, all we have to think about is what we want the ski to do and allow our intuitive movements to act on their own. If you are already a good skier but you are having conceptual difficulties with - “flex this, tilt that, rotate hear and a little there, tip, shorten then lengthen, push this, incline early, angulate late, pull back that but only in turn phase two when on semi firm hardpack at moderate pitch as long as you are on a 12 - 17 radius front side ski” - them maybe you might try simply providing the ski the tipping and pressure it needs and wants.
“A magic sword that floats and moves perfectly at will, will only wear the hand that can match its movements.”
Chevalier de Saint-Georges 1745 - 1799 (champion fencer, virtuoso violinist, the French son of an African slave)
The quoted statement is very true. The reason I believe that is true is because the steeper the terrain, the more we need to pressure the shovels at turn phase one. The conundrum with this is that the steeper the ski itself is pitched in the fall line, the more difficult fore/aft control of the ski becomes. The length of the balance point or, sweet spot on a ski shrinks as the ski slopes forward. To further the conundrum is the fear factor that goes up when we are asked to move our CoM forward as the slope steepens. More relevant in basic terms than moguls: “You can’t ski and the steeps prove it”.
The reason why many “good” carvers cannot pure carve on the steeps is because they start the turn from a centered stance which makes the ski go too fast to continue edge locking the ski. With the advent of the shaped ski, a technical epidemic occurred whereby many skiers learned to carve from center where we can do a lot by just tipping the ski and is why many have not really learned to truly “carve” the ski which means to run concentrated pressure from the tip to the tail through each and every turn as was a compelling requisite on carving straight skis. Tipping the ski from center really works well until either the slope gets too steep or too icy. “Rocking” the ski through the turn has two basic benefits: One is that the concentrated pressure on only a portion of the ski at a time provides more penetration into hard surfaces like ice and just the same way we use concentrated pressure on a running blade in order to carve a piece of wood. Try to push a blade directly down into the wood from center like a ski and the blade won’t penetrate the surface. That the pressure is “running” down the ski better allows the tail edge of the ski to more easily follows the cut precisely that the shovel initiates. Pressuring only the center of the ski causes a very tiny invisible amount of “brushing” of the edge where the tail is not in the exact same tiny cut on ice that the shovel started even though pencil thin tracks are left but only in the softer snow. Secondly, a purposeful fore to aft rocking of the ski allows a bent ski to carve an even slightly more rounded turn, more redirection, as a small form of speed control for edge locked turns that is very helpful on the steeps. Rocking fore aft ski pressure on edge locked turn will keep you pure carving longer as the slope steepens or hardens, thus producing better edge grip and a decreasing reliance on friction for speed control. A key/helpful focus on making this happen is attempting to always “bend the shovel before you bend the whole ski”.
Most or all high level coach’s and racer’s primary frame of reference are the two forces applied to the ski which are tipping and pressure. The term “pressure” is used all day long on the race hill. Announcers like B. Miller use the term very often. If it is ultimately the ski to snow interaction that we seek to produce and control, tipping and pressuring (left/right & fore/aft) the ski are going to be primary attributes to technique. Pressure is not just “feedback” it is both input and output of the highest order.
While it may not be everyone’s prefered frame of reference as with many other instructors that is OK. Though, I wouldn’t recommend discounting the term’s usefulness considering the coaching and ability hierarchy at play. It is also more important for an instructor to work with the student’s pre-existing frame of reference and understood terminology rather than to teach them yours in the small space of a lesson, private or otherwise. Unfortunately, there never seems to be enough time to teach a creative writing class while conducting a ski lesson. While it is interesting to read some of the instructors that commonly reference strict personal preferences on terminology and frames of reference, that seems to be more about personal instructor differentiation that is more based in ego than actual teaching. They often complain that a term is bad because of how or what it makes them think and then go on to assume that everyone thinks like them.
It doesn’t matter what the body is doing if the ski isn’t being pressured correctly. Pressuring the skis correctly is the answer to the question “why?” in regards to all or most of any instructors movement patterns that are recommended. Any time any of us are asked to do anything at all with our bodies by a coach or instructor that is responded to with the question “why?”, that answer always has to do with ski input. There are only two basic inputs to a ski: tipping and pressure (left/right, fore/aft). Skiing is body, equipment and slope. Because the equipment is between the body and slope, it should receive the primary directive to which everything else is secondary. Ski to snow interaction is very literally and figuratively where the rubber meets the road, hence the rational.
If a naked and empty ski, no bindings or skier, had to take its own course down the slope and had the magical power to make itself apply perfect turns to the ground with the most efficiency possible, it would tip and pressure itself to perfection. Imagine, conceive, explore and familiarize all that a ski would want to do without you and then get on it and start matching and providing the “ski’s” prefered motor patterns. Sometimes, all we have to think about is what we want the ski to do and allow our intuitive movements to act on their own. If you are already a good skier but you are having conceptual difficulties with - “flex this, tilt that, rotate hear and a little there, tip, shorten then lengthen, push this, incline early, angulate late, pull back that but only in turn phase two when on semi firm hardpack at moderate pitch as long as you are on a 12 - 17 radius front side ski” - them maybe you might try simply providing the ski the tipping and pressure it needs and wants.
“A magic sword that floats and moves perfectly at will, will only wear the hand that can match its movements.”
Chevalier de Saint-Georges 1745 - 1799 (champion fencer, virtuoso violinist, the French son of an African slave)
Thousand step drills are still a thing? Cool! if you want to enhance your feel and command of fore aft stability do some of those drills with your top buckles loose.. start on easy terrain first though. Go out on a tele rig for a couple hours here and there as well..
I'm a pretty good skier, and I'm still learning to pressure the tips on steep terrain.
This winter, I really exaggerated the feet pull back on steep (40+) narrow, terrain, and I'm blown away by how i can ski a 3 meter corridor with the skis staying in the snow, which before required a bit of jumping. And this is with 112 mm skis (katanas).
This winter, I really exaggerated the feet pull back on steep (40+) narrow, terrain, and I'm blown away by how i can ski a 3 meter corridor with the skis staying in the snow, which before required a bit of jumping. And this is with 112 mm skis (katanas).
Although I haven’t skied east of the Rockies in 36 years I learned to ski and race in Michigan so I know there are some good Instructors/coaches in the Midwest, some of the best in fact
.I’m kind of a simple guy, and I don’t want to get hung up on terms. (Balance vs pressure) as one (pressure) is a component of balance (as is edging and rotation) begging the question:
Does one have good balance because of their skills or do they have good skills because of their balance?
If I said @Slim, your fore/aft balance is the issue here, you need to get centered on your skis what would that mean to you? Would I even be telling you anything new?
But it I talked to you about how we pressure the ski to get it to bend and how you should be pressuring the tongue of the boot, constantly squeezing it through all phases of the turn that might be something that you could begin to work with, hopefully both informative and something you can visualize and then but into practice, outside only ski turns (with the tip of the inside ski on the snow) are a great way to feel that pressure as you have to close your ankle and provide constant forward pressure to keep the ski in an arc, aided by most of your weight over it.
During the shaping and finish of the turns are you maintaining and increasing that pressure against your shin or are you feeling it subsiding or maybe even transferring to your calves, even momentarily? If you are even slightly aft at the initiation by the finish it will be even greater (unless you actively change it) which means you have to travel farther across the hill before initiation of the next turn and/or having to do some type of upper body rotation (another problem) to huck those skis around.
Pole plants are often another issue, are you aiming/planting the pole into the apex of the next turn, which aids in that forward pressure. Do you drop one hand back resulting in both upper body rotation and movement of your COM aft?
These are all examples of what things I might look at first, with any skier not necessarily specific questions for you. I would revisit the “Athletic Stance” with particular attention to the ankles (often over looked).
I’m a big believer in taking an “Occam’s Razor” approach, the simplest answer is usually the correct one, or at least the best starting point. A lot of cool sounding drills were posted earlier and may be helpful but first address the basics.
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No, you shouldn't.
No, you'll slide the tail. You don't need constant forward pressure to keep the ski in an arc.
True, if we were talking about too much forward pressure, buttering the tails around, but the context was about being centered and experimenting with tactics to get you there, most skiers don’t have issues with too much forward pressure, they have issues with too little, resulting in the aft movement of their COM as they progress through the turn. Constant forward pressure by squeezing the tongue is but one tactic to overcome that.
Unless we are just back to saying “get centered over your skis” without any tactics to get you there.
Great in-snow drills from Josh and others. But, keep in mind that, unless we are skiing year round, or have nothing else to do but ski during our winter, we have very little actual time on skis. So, dry land drills would also help a lot. I mentioned this in another thread, but stuff like standing in the aisle of a subway, bus, or airport monorail, not holding onto anything and maintaining balance is great. Feel the core, ankle and knee flex required to maintain balance during accerlerations, decelerations, and turns and jerkiness. That guy swaying back and forth on one leg in the Starbucks line, that could be me.
Karl, I disagree. A simple side slip each side at the start of each run can greatly improve balance and edge feel (20 sec per run invested), if that’s too much cut it down to 4 times a day. Add in a couple of Josh’s other drills if possible. Change (improve) your skiing.Great in-snow drills from Josh and others. But, keep in mind that, unless we are skiing year round, or have nothing else to do but ski during our winter, we have very little actual time on skis. So, dry land drills would also help a lot. I mentioned this in another thread, but stuff like standing in the aisle of a subway, bus, or airport monorail, not holding onto anything and maintaining balance is great. Feel the core, ankle and knee flex required to maintain balance during accerlerations, decelerations, and turns and jerkiness. That guy swaying back and forth on one leg in the Starbucks line, that could be me.
Good years I get 20 days, bad years I get 1 day.
Balance is the key as I was taught by an old instructor when I was 16. This lesson made everything else easy. I still do these drills today to make up for lack of slope time.
If you want to improve if you only do one thing, balance drills. Everything is icing on the cake, but balance is the foundation that all else stands on.
I'm applauding the use of the on-snow drills. I'm just saying that much can be gained off-season with off-snow drills and fun. Sorry for being unclear.
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@oldschoolskier hit the nail on the head. Sideslipping can't be done straight down the fall line unless the skier is centered. Sideslip, sideslip, sideslip, straight down the hill. Excellent drill for finding center. Sideslip straight down, turn it into one schmeered turn, then sideslip straight down facing the other way. Simple, direct. Get aft during a run? Stop and sideslip to find center again.
Also: Shuffle shuffle shuffle your turns, another great and simple centering drill. Work up to shuffling the whole turn on blue terrain. Find yourself aft during regular skiing? Stop, push the reset button, shuffle shuffle shuffle to find center, then go back to regular turns.
@Josh Matta mentioned both of these drills in that comprehensive post above.
Also: Shuffle shuffle shuffle your turns, another great and simple centering drill. Work up to shuffling the whole turn on blue terrain. Find yourself aft during regular skiing? Stop, push the reset button, shuffle shuffle shuffle to find center, then go back to regular turns.
@Josh Matta mentioned both of these drills in that comprehensive post above.
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I like to throw in some side slips and pivot slips at the start of two or three runs a day. Spins, backside, frontside, there are countless slipping drills. 200 yards, 20 seconds of practice... a little goes a long way.
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As an Intermediate skier that is progressing, I have realized after last season helping/teaching my partner Nat that skiing is all about balance and confidence and drills are the pathway. I was able to get Nat pretty much up to my level (from a complete beginner who had never even seen snow) in one season. Talking, showing, following is ok, but the real progress and "aha" moments happened after doing drills and then seeing the results in our skiing.
We have 5 days skiing this season (we'll get 42 total) and we start the day with 3 full runs of drills. Usually 3 different drills on each run (Big Sky has some long runs). We started doing an easy intermediate bump run a few days ago and yesterday we were able to get down without any drama with some really nice turns in small sections. I can see our improvement in the bumps corresponding to our improvement with drills. We are not even close to being able to do the drills smoothly. It's good motivation.
We do all of the drills in Josh's Moderately Hard category. We practice backwards skiing (not well) and Pivot Slips in his Expert category as well as working on smooth 360's. We are going to try his fancy falling leaf today. We also started doing the Thousand Steps drill a couple days ago. I actually managed a full left turn on my left(inside) ski yesterday (ugly, but still..). Each day we get just a bit better with all the drills and each day our skiing has gotten just a bit better. It was a great feeling to get through the bump run yesterday fairly confident and not tired from fighting it.
We have 5 days skiing this season (we'll get 42 total) and we start the day with 3 full runs of drills. Usually 3 different drills on each run (Big Sky has some long runs). We started doing an easy intermediate bump run a few days ago and yesterday we were able to get down without any drama with some really nice turns in small sections. I can see our improvement in the bumps corresponding to our improvement with drills. We are not even close to being able to do the drills smoothly. It's good motivation.
We do all of the drills in Josh's Moderately Hard category. We practice backwards skiing (not well) and Pivot Slips in his Expert category as well as working on smooth 360's. We are going to try his fancy falling leaf today. We also started doing the Thousand Steps drill a couple days ago. I actually managed a full left turn on my left(inside) ski yesterday (ugly, but still..). Each day we get just a bit better with all the drills and each day our skiing has gotten just a bit better. It was a great feeling to get through the bump run yesterday fairly confident and not tired from fighting it.
Thread Starter
TS
Well, I’m happy to say, I do sideslips and pivot slips almost every run I ski. I’m an old whitewater kayaker and I still remember the first time we got flat bottomed boats and were able to flatspin and sideslip down a wave, so I really like that feeling!
I’m going to try the inside ski up drill and the 1000 steps drill this afternoon
Thanks for all the tips!
I’m going to try the inside ski up drill and the 1000 steps drill this afternoon
Thanks for all the tips!
Last edited:
Is there a difference between braquage turns and a pivot slip?
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