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Dirty skiing?

Monique

bounceswoosh
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What in your opinion is the genesis of the emphasis on carving you mention? Is it in ski schools that you feel this skill is over-emphasized to the detriment of other important skills?

Excellent point that clean skiing doesn't need to mean carving. Even World Cup skiers aren't carving all the time. We've spent some time developing a definition for Dirty Skiing, but is clean skiing just carving? I don't think so. To me it's starting to sound like Clean skiing is skiing that is fluid, balanced, and intentional. Dirty skiing, by contrast is making more instinctual recovery moves when you get thrown off balance or in a tight spot that may not always be pretty, but they are effective? Am I zeroing in any? :huh:

Warning: rambling is my thinking process!

I have blamed ski instructors for it in the past, and been yelled at about it. Certainly there are plenty of instructors who do not emphasize carving per se. But when I look in the PSIA technical manual, when it comes to advanced lessons, there's one sentence (I believe - don't have it in front of me) mentioning there are a variety of types of skiing at the advanced level - but the only one they go into in detail is carving, implicitly leaving the rest as an exercise for the reader. So I do think that implies some bias, or conversely may instill bias unintentionally due to the emphasis on carving.

Please note that I became aware last season that I don't carve even when that's what I intend, although I can produce lovely brushed turns. When I was skiing with the level 6/7 group last season as rehab, others in the class wanted to follow me down the hill because they loved my rhythm. But again - I wasn't carving. And I'm not saying that proudly. I want it to be a choice not to carve, rather than a lack of skill dictating my actions. So maybe you could argue there hasn't been *enough* emphasis on carving in my lessons.

But aside from the control that carving demonstrates, carving hasn't been useful in the places I ski, which seem to be similar to the places where @KingGrump skis, except he does it better and may ski gnarlier stuff than I do. But man, show me a gap in the trees or a "warning: early/late season conditions exist" sign, and I am drawn like a moth to a flame. As someone mentioned upthread, the best snow is in between the stuff that necessitates the warning.

I don't think World Cup skiers are clean skiers, not when they're racing. You can't get the best time with perfect technique. Maybe dirty skiing is not so much "Mr. Right" as "Mr. Right Now."

My favorite instructor - actually, several instructors - anyway, they tell me that you never remove a technique from your arsenal. You had it for a reason, and sometimes you need it. Usually in trees, I'd say ... There was a time when I skied with a new-to-me instructor in some new-to-us trees. They got pretty tight; if there was a better line, we didn't take it. Afterward, I groused that I'd had to do a backseat tail push maneuver to keep myself from hitting a tree, and I ought to be able to do better. This PSIA level 3 instructor assured me that he had to do the same thing, and that's just how it is sometimes in tight trees. I guess that's fundamentally dirty skiing.

There's also this fun technique if you're in a relatively wide slalom path in the trees, where your direction of travel does not match the direction of the skis. Someone above mentioned it for slush bumps, I think. I'm pretty sure that's not clean skiing, but OMG fun.

And another instructor, in my top 3 for sure, he was most excited for me when I came through some other trees bashing and thrashing rather than carefully choosing each turn. I realized that I was out of balance and in recovery mode pretty much constantly, getting knocked off course and then correcting, but it felt like skiing done right. He didn't want me to look like a textbook. I would say he wanted me to look more like an extreme skier.

In fact, I think that's another assertion. The pictures in the PSIA manuals are pretty skiing. The skiers in the movies? That's dirty.

Perhaps this is why I'm having so much trouble wrapping my head around the concept of "dirty" skiing. If deliberate, practiced techniques are being brought to bear to ski the slope effectively, can we really call it dirty?:popcorn:

Hmm. I'm watching So You Think You Can Dance now. Maybe a good analogy is ballet vs krunk. Dirty skiing is a stank face and someone saying "Nasty!" like it's a good thing ...

Of course, all of this is just my interpretation.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Attempt at defining clean skiing (to contrast it with dirty skiing) - please agree/disagree/add:

Tail follows tip in a smooth, round fashion
Skis are perfectly parallel
Distance between skis does not vary throughout turn(s)
Skis do not leave the snow
Speed is held at a constant
Body remains balanced over skis - not thrown forward or back
Quiet upper body
Upper/lower body separation
Poles are flicked lightly and are not used to push, pull, brace, or stop

I think these all apply to bump competitions, which are judged on style, not just speed.
 

Monique

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Oops - except in bump competitions, skis leave snow! Other than that, though.
 

KevinF

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I have some time while I wait for a compilation to finish...

Like many pugs, I don't spend any appreciable amount of time "carving" in the strict definition of the word -- i.e., the tracks I leave behind in the snow do not generally resemble railroad tracks. My preferred terrain (trail edges, bumps, trees, etc.) and my skill set (or lack thereof) is just not conducive to carving turns, again in the strict sense of the word "carving".

(Side note: I remember watching one of the race kids lay down a pretty good imitation of slalom turns through rather large moguls one time. I can't do it; apparently there are those who can).

All that said, I am still interested in making the roundest turn possible through those conditions. Barring a need to do anything else, I still want my skis slicing through the snow (i.e., "carving" in a loose sense) as much as possible.

In that sense, I think that teaching carved turns is relevant; not in the sense that carved turns are useful everywhere but the overall skills (i.e., patience, balancing, etc) required to do one is relevant everywhere.

And my build is finished. Yay.
 

Monique

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You probably are a dirty skier if you are on people’s “Do not follow” list.

Hah! After I meet up with the group, snow clinging to my knees, people sometimes say they want to go where I'm going! What they don't know is that I bushwhacked and traversed so that I could get to two powder turns and then had bushwhack myself right back out. I tell them I'm not responsible for what happens if they follow me.
 

slowrider

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Twigs,brush,moss,branches and assorted foliage that have adhered to your person during your off piste escapades. Calling dirty pete.
 

SBrown

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You probably are a dirty skier if you are on people’s “Do not follow” list.

canary-in-coal-mine_180.jpg
 

François Pugh

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I confess to being a carving fanatic. Everything seems to go in cycles. For me the carving cycle first began in the 1970s whith the first North American to win the DH championship being from Canada, and listening to the colour commentary about how "clean" his turns were and how this allowed him to maintain greater speed. I was so inspired, that that carving cycle lasted decades. If I wasn't hard on the brakes (which was often) I was trying to carve the cleanest fastest line. I eventually got around to bump skiing and discovered a different technique was required, at least at first. I read ski forms wherein many posters were bemoaning the fact that carving was given such elevated status, when other skiing was just as good. Having an open mind I gave the theory some credit and worked on "other skiing", and alternated between believing that carving was indeed the best, and maybe not. Fast forward to the last two ski seasons: I concentrated almost exclusively (only a few runs a day on non-carved bump skiing) on cleaner, faster, higher edge angle carving.

Here's something I really noticed near the end of last season. Working on your "clean" carving skiing greatly improves your "dirty skiing". At least, it did for me.

For me the definition of clean is skis producing minimal drag force.
 

4ster

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Carving can be clean, carving can be dirty or something in between. I do my best to carve almost every turn I make... everywhere.
I guess it depends on your definition of carving though :huh:
 

Chris Walker

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Here's something I really noticed near the end of last season. Working on your "clean" carving skiing greatly improves your "dirty skiing". At least, it did for me.

This is what I have noticed as well, in the past few years that I've been focusing more on the fundamentals and getting professional instruction to work on refining my technique. That got me to wonder: Is it even possible to be good at dirty skiing if you are not also good at clean skiing?
 

KingGrump

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OK, ha ha, focusing for the moment on the skiing part of Do lots of it and do it often: To get better at skiing dirty, do you need to ski dirty often, or can you, by deliberately practicing and drilling the fundamentals of stance, balance, pressure, edging, rotary skills, etc., build the skills needed to tackle the "tricky" terrain where "dirty" moves are needed?

While nothing will replace time spent skiing the combination of variable snow and variable terrain at the same time. I can see the foundation for off piste (3D) skiing can be laid on the groomers.

Some of the stuff that can be worked on skiing groomers.
Speed control through turn shape and line.
Quicker and more nimble turns utilizing less edging and reduced hard deck reaction.
A more balanced and upright stance.
 

KingGrump

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This is what I have noticed as well, in the past few years that I've been focusing more on the fundamentals and getting professional instruction to work on refining my technique. That got me to wonder: Is it even possible to be good at dirty skiing if you are not also good at clean skiing?

Yes. I have seen lots of good skiers that can tear it up off piste while suck big time on the groomers due to lack of technique and fundamentals. They compensate their short fall in technique with athleticism, physicality, experience and often good tactics. The draw back is athleticism and physicality generally diminish with age. Plan B.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Yes. I have seen lots of good skiers that can tear it up off piste while suck big time on the groomers due to lack of technique and fundamentals. They compensate their short fall in technique with athleticism, physicality, experience and often good tactics. The draw back is athleticism and physicality generally diminish with age. Plan B.

When I was a teen, an instructor told me that I had a very athletic technique.

It took me a number of years to realize that wasn't exactly a compliment.
 

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