Drill Deconstructing Mikaela Shiffrin slalom turns

[1chris5]

Agree and I think that a quite upper body is something you get more or less automatically if you have good balance from the feet up.

I guess it might be a chicken or egg kind of thing. If you are an intermediate skier that does not have proper separation then having a quiet body even if it's robotic might be a good start. Maybe, after feeling a little separation can one notice skiing from the feet up. I personally like the quiet ski thought for myself. With the understanding that it's a Dynamic quiet upper body and I Dynamic active lower body.

 

[James]

Ironically, I think a lot of balance comes from the core.
One could develop stable upper body by doing things like this:

Neureuther also does or did lifekinetik training which has you doing things like balancing while throwing little balls and crossing hands like juggling. I guess it's become big with soccer players.


I would also think that doing things like skiing crappy refrozen slush would help.
It was good to see that at ABasin the Vail ski club was skiing a sort of tight gs track, made I guess by just following someone slowly. This was being skied in pretty steep rough slushy snow that was not smooth or easy at all.
I doubt Mikaela does crappy snow skiing for training from what's been said. Likely gym stuff. She seems to like repetition.

 

[markojp]

Was it you who wrote it, disciplined? That is the better word. The true, absolute still and quiet, straight down the fall line, is actually an amazing experience though.

Disciplined and directed, yes. 'Absolutely still and quiet' , there is no such thing*.


*IMHO and experience.

 

[Muleski]

I'm going to post once more, and leave this thread. I'm not an instructor. I have taught two kids to ski, literally for a year or so each before they were four. That's it. I have coached a lot of kids, but I'm reasonably stale there. I talk to a lot of coaches, though, so not a complete dinosaur. Just not out there working. I jumped in on this thread as I do have some insight re: Team Shiffrin. But not in terms of where the discussion has gone...which is absolutely fine!

I think I might have used the term quiet upper body, to describe MS, and her SL skiing. I have learned something here, about how that might not be perfect word if one is instructing adults. Frankly, I'm not sure how ANY of a top level WC skier's SL skiing translates to a student. That's a different thought.

Deliberate,disciplined,directed, all make sense to me when discussing the concept of separation with a skier. Good words. Good to keep in mind.

However, I can assure you that the term "quiet upper body" is used a TON by alpine coaches who are working with even the most elite skiers. The reason I mentioned it here was that I have heard it used a lot by the two coaches who I think have influenced MS's skiing more than anybody. Used to describe her. And, I have heard one recently say to her on the hill "I'd like you to keep your upper body a bit more quiet on this one."

So.....while it may confuse students, and make then stiffen up, leading to poor separation {all of which makes sense to me}, if you do overhear a conversation or two between a truly exceptional athlete and coach you might hear that quiet word. Accurate or not.

Now when absolutely top level, say U16's and U19's , are freeskiing, the words deliberate and "with a purpose" are pretty frequently used. In other words, have a plan to work on. If they are skiing with coaches the plan is pretty obvious to observe.

I'll leave the ski school forum to the instructors. We have plenty of very good ones!

PS, I think every top racer slacklines. Some better than others. For sure.

Somebody also mentioned that MS looks smaller than they had thought she would. She's pretty strong, and naturally lean. She's added muscle mass each of the past few summers and part of it is just growing up. I'd guess that she's somewhere 140-150 lbs. just a guess.

Now put her in a lineup with LV, and Lara Gut, and you won't mistake anybody! A number of years ago, I was at an event with LV and a friend who is a retired NFL safety. He was pretty shocked at how much bigger she was than he. And she was in flip flops. Conversely, Gut and Tessa Worley are very short. But very powerful. This sport works for all sizes, as long as they are strong and fit. MS is, I am told, probably the most fit skier on the WC.

Lots to discuss re: MS. Maybe not with respect to instruction.

 

[markojp]

Just to be clear Muleski, I chose the words on my own volition. I think most instructors I know also use 'quiet' and 'still' or similar. I chose the other word(s) because I think what the upperbody actually does is pretty misunderstood particularly coaching kids no matter what the focus of the program might be. Anyhow... onward!

 

[karlo]

her experience at Ohau,

https://video.fewr1-2.fna.fbcdn.net...=45aec876e705d1ee6aee220e9499ce70&oe=591D39F8

That link didn't work after it timed out. Found it here, but requires logging in


Anyway, the point is, with this and other videos and photos, her joy for the sport is contagious.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Love the music and vibe in that video.

 

[James]

Beautiful spot. Fun to see her feeling the edges before getting in the course.
Former coach:
Some with mom:

 

[karlo]

Disciplined and directed, yes

term "quiet upper body" is used a TON

I think you are both correct, it being a matter of perspective. One must be disciplined and directed to keep the upper body quiet, along the desired and most efficient path.

Back to MS SL turns, in the opening video, I think it is amazing where her turn starts and where the belly of her turn is. I'm looking at where the greatest spray of snow is relative to where the next gate is. Wow.

 

[karlo]

Some with Mom

The dancing sequence in World Cup Diaries sheds new light on the rhythm she is talking about in her video on pre-inspection. MS has posted a good number of dance videos at her Instagram account. I don't think links to those can be copied and pasted.

 

[razie]

As for upper body stability I don't think it's an illusion. It doesn't mean it doesn't move though it may look that way. Whether one gets there by using words of "disciplined" or "still" is probably what resonates with the individual. Off snow training probably is the way to develop it. I don't know what Mikaela does but someone like Felix Neureuther uses slack lines a lot which necessitates a stable core. Probably riding dirt bikes and mountain bikes helps too as one needs to commit quickly and get in a position which will yield the direction change a short time later.

that's exactly the idea - there is nothing "still" about the upper body on a bike or a slack line. It simply moves to counter-balance the lower body - as the force/balance changes. Since the forces on a slack line are always downwards, you will see the body go one way or the other, to compensate and maintain balance on the vertical force.

the exact same thing happens on skis - the difference is that we tip the lower body purposefully at high angles and the forces become lateral as the turn progresses, so while the body in fact reacts pretty much the same way it would on a slack line, it looks still for an observer, because in an ideal scenario, it could move inside an equal amount to the skis tipping, so the end result is that it would appear that it was still, to an instructor watching, but there's nothing still about it for the skier.

but this is why "keep your body still" in my mind is a poor instruction. there's nothing still about it. It is in fact more effortful than on a slack line, since you're pulling 2-3g not just 1g.

anyways... enough ink spent on it.

cheers



About her being fast because she's carving the top of the turn more than not, here's another way to look at it: if I don't engage my skis early, I can't get direction early, I'll have to get it under the fall line, while also slowing down. By direction I don't mean the direction the skis are pointing, but the deflection of com. Does that sound right?

 

[ScotsSkier]

Still/quiet/ disciplined. Don't sweat it and DONT take it too literally. For me it is keeping the body downhill and if you roll the skis under you as you should it should LOOK like the upper body is still even tho it isn't in the literal sense. If the upper body has a lot of up/down movement I can see that you are NOT letting the skis roll under you and not getting the necessary separation. My advice to my athletes is to imagine they have a number on their back and if I am standing at the top of the hill I want to be able to see that number, and in a consistent plane, all the way down

 

[Jamt]

Since the forces on a slack line are always downwards, you will see the body go one way or the other, to compensate and maintain balance on the vertical force.

the exact same thing happens on skis - the difference is that we tip the lower body purposefully at high angles and the forces become lateral as the turn progresses, so while the body in fact reacts pretty much the same way it would on a slack line, it looks still for an observer, because in an ideal scenario, it could move inside an equal amount to the skis tipping, so the end result is that it would appear that it was still, to an instructor watching, but there's nothing still about it for the skier.

I'm not sure balancing on a slack line and balancing on ski edges have much in common. If you stand on a slack line with your right foot and start falling to the left you need to move the foot to the left so that it ends up more under the CoM again, and even a bit to the left of it to compensate. Moving the foot to the left is accomplished by pushing the hip and center body to the right and shoulders to the left, sort of a de-angulation move. This is exactly what you don't want If you were falling inside a ski turn.
Hence I'm not convinced that there is a great carry over between slack lining and skiing.
I'm sure different balancing exercises are good for the overall body control and balance, but I would not put too much emphasis on slack lining or other stuff that have completely different mechanisms. Standing one-legged on a bosu would be one example that uses a more similar response mechanism.

Regarding slack lining I think the trend started because Stenmark was seen doing it in a TV program, along with riding a very tall unicycle. He did it for fun, but it started a trend...

One thing that Stenmark and Shiffrin have in common is that he spent a lot of time with drills and directed free skiing.

 

[Swede]

Stenmark was joking about that slackline, knowing that the Austrians watched every move he made. Suddenly they were wasting precious skiing time on slackline and one wheeled bicycles. Stenmark was skiing.
I doubt skiing technique can be practiced in the gym. Not really a lot we can learn on bikes, lines or skates that transfers technique wise, but building relevant strength and agility/flexibilty. Which is nice to have for a rec skier and absolutely crucial for racing. This makes me think of another thread in another forum where people claimed that wall sits where bad exercises, because they would "put a skier in the backseat"... Technique is not learned or practiced in the gym.
About the upper body, keeping it "calm" would be the direct translation of what I've heard the regular coaches in my daughters U16 squad talk about. A couple of the racers that were waving their arms too much practiced on free skiing w/o poles, keeping their arms (crossed) over their chests.

 

[Swede]

The dancing sequence in World Cup Diaries sheds new light on the rhythm she is talking about in her video on pre-inspection. MS has posted a good number of dance videos at her Instagram account. I don't think links to those can be copied and pasted.

Not that he's very dancy, but didn't her youth coach say she was the "Mozart of skiing" or something like that? Perhaps had more to do with beauty and grace than rythm?

 

[karlo]

Not that he's very dancy, but didn't her youth coach say she was the "Mozart of skiing" or something like that? Perhaps had more to do with beauty and grace than rythm?

That too. And, I recall a USSA commentator saying something about MS describing how she gets into a rhythm or beat that she can't get out of.

Maybe that's why, often, at the finish line, thought she's won, she has little emotion. For her, the music stopped.

 

[karlo]

balancing on a slack line

I recall reading that MS unicycled when she was young

 

[razie]

I'm not sure balancing on a slack line and balancing on ski edges have much in common. If you stand on a slack line with your right foot and start falling to the left you need to move the foot to the left so that it ends up more under the CoM again, and even a bit to the left of it to compensate. Moving the foot to the left is accomplished by pushing the hip and center body to the right and shoulders to the left, sort of a de-angulation move. This is exactly what you don't want If you were falling inside a ski turn.

if you move the feet left, you fall I think that I would instead, move my upper body and hips, to have the com realign and have the feet react to realign or something, but granted, it is not identical except in the principle of moving the upper body to re-balance or counter-balance along "the force". and I don't mean midichlorians

I recall reading that MS unicycled when she was young

along with many other weird games in the garage and anything improving the proprioception and fast twich fibers.

which begs the question: is she really just a random phenom or the result of the perfect combination of crazy and smart dedicated parents and work ethic? certainly, not many other North American ski racers grew like that... how many are still training with their parents, on a daily basis?

I don't think, as a parent, this is something you can delegate and expect greatness! The chances and the system are stacked against you! Just a thought, infused reasonably with single malt...

 

[Swede]

That is the de-facto standard here in Sweden as well, and in many other European countries. That is why it is so interesting that Kirk has taken a different direction.
I can see that certain drills for sure are better with SL skis, and some with GS skis.

My impression is that there has been a lot of emphasis on more speed for kids over here in the latest years. My guess is that Norway has inspired a lot (rightfully inmo), and their line has been that it's good to race as many diciplines as possible--at a young age.

 

[karlo]

Disciplined and directed, yes

I think I might have used the term quiet upper body, to describe MS, and her SL skiing.

Rather than describing it in words, I believe that this video illustrates both 'quiet' and 'disciplined and directed'. In the segments in which they are not moving across the floor, or even if they are, use the vertical and horizontal lines of the rectangular panels as a point of reference. When they move diagonally in the vertical, watch the smoothness of the COM in that arc or line.


In this video, and others, MS demonstrates her dancing skills. Note the studio segments without ski boots. Nevermind sync to partners and music. There are a number of other dance videos in her Instagram account.


Personally, I love MS's skiing not for her finish times, but the beauty of her skiing, though I posit both are related to the other. Second run at St. Moritz this past season is a great example.