chatter in the turns

[CalG]

Has anyone experienced "chatter" in the down hill/outside ski during high energy turns?
I read about such in "ski Reviews".
My own experience indicates that such antics are a consequence of failing to load that outside ski.

One leg balance is key. All else will follow.

deep snow demands a different approach.

 

[Goose]

I don't know if its failing to load the ski so much as balance point. I was getting a lot of it a few years ago when I first made the switch to shaped skis. Yes, only a few years ago I was still on old long straights. A lot of years with little skiing.....long story. But as good a skier as I had been I had to sort of learn to ski again with the new shaped skis and honestly in some ways I still am. But at the time I was experiencing a lot of chatter. After gaining knowledge seeking advice and a lot of reading of instruction I believe balance point and other technique changes required for the new (at the time) eventually lead (actually fairly quickly) to the chatter disappearing. The only time I experience it now is on icier conditions when skiing a bit defensively. I suppose when in those icier conditions when carving is just very difficult or even non existent I may sometimes be reverting back to some of my old technique (via habit) while in somewhat defensive mode and with that can sometimes come that chatter again.
Now Im not certain if what your bringing up is the same chatter I am speaking or for the same reasons of but its all I can think of when you mention chatter.

 

[NE1]

1. Get the uphill skil (soon to be the downhill ski) up on edge and engaged at the top of the turn.

2. Maintain forward pressure with the shins on the tops of the boot tongues to engage the ski's tip and track through the turn.

3. Use the combination of the ski's sidecut and longitudinal flex to track through the turn in it's natural arc without over-forcing the steering/direction given the speed, steepness, and snow/ice surface conditions.

 

[apache]

Do you have custom fitted insoles?

 

[raytseng]

When you are talking about ski reviews chatter is a comparative metric or aspect of the ski. It's not a question of technique, reviewers understand how to ski.

If you have 10 skis, locking down the variables of the same slopen same speed, same turn and same amount of load and skier exertion, some skis will chatter more than the other.

If you want to flip the variables the alternative way to interpret is how much load do you need to stop the chatter over other skis. If you are going machspeed with a chattery ski, there is not enough human strength to make up for the ski so it is just beyond the limit of the ski,you can't load more to make that high speed turn. Or even if you could, it is just a chore to do so.

Also outside of turns, some skis going over flat crud straight will chatter, others will not.
So its all comparative about the ski, not a skills issue. Of course feel free to discuss skills.

It is the same as talking about a suspension on a car. A reviewer may say a ferrari has a bumpy chattery ride on a gravel road, and a rangerover is smooth as silk over the gravel. You can devolve this to just say well just drive slower over the bumps and potholes and dodge the big boulder and ruts and your ferrari won't shake aka learn to drive better.

But thats not the point in describing a cars suspension in a car review for comparative purposes. One shouldnt takeaway that the car reviewer doesn't know how to drive.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Has anyone experienced "chatter" in the down hill/outside ski during high energy turns?
I read about such in "ski Reviews".
My own experience indicates that such antics are a consequence of failing to load that outside ski.

One leg balance is key. All else will follow.

deep snow demands a different approach.

Chatter is caused by several thing.

Ski design, race skis chatter less because they are built to handle the extreme conditions like this.

Balance, yes but it not about only loading the outside ski, better skiers actually load both to some degree, there are discussion about this out there. It has more to do about fore and aft balance to stop chatter. Nine times out of 10 you are too far aft in balance and the tip does not have enough loading to keep it engaged. Shift your wt forward slightly. Technique looks pretty, but is just in the wrong position. COM an inch or two forward can make a difference.

A big over looked and misunderstood item is tuning. To make this easy consider a 1 base (forgiveness in ski). 2 side hold but likely will chatter at a point, 3 likely shouldn’t chatter, 4 or higher most likely not.

In all cases the edges need to be sharp. To determine sharpness you should see side and base edge with NO shine where the edge should be. If you see even a glint of shine it’s NOT SHARP. There are other more precise methods, but this is the quick check. Additionally, some turners still detune (sometimes under the pretense to remove the burr), removing the burr good, detuning bad. (Side note, detuning was what base bevel is today, that simple. Base bevel is more predictable and still ensures sharp edges). A detune removes edge where you need edge which directly causes chatter. The tip doesn’t bite so it slips creating chatter. Rule is SHARP TIP TO TAIL ALWAYS.

The final item Attack, given that everything else is right, if you don’t have the confidence to attack you will have chatter.

This all applies to straight skis and carries over to shaped skis, my straights rarely chattered on Ice at any speed, I’ve only had my shaped skis chatter because I was tentative and not forward enough attacking (that only on the Doderman SLR because they got squirrelly at extreme speed (mid-high 40’s and trailling edges started catching) and I backed off. I was testing the limits and found them, for the record 0.5/4 razor edge).

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Chatter is the tip engaging, disengaging, engaging repeatedly and rapidly. You either need to reduce edge or increase pressure on the tips.

 

[Dave Marshak]

All the replies above are either right but not very helpful, irrelevant, or just plain wrong.

Chatter is ALWAYS pilot error. Some skis chatter more than others, but the best skiers can always avoid it. It's caused by too much edge and pressure. Essentially, your skis chatter when you ask them to do to much.

To avoid chatter, you need a good feel for how much pressure you can put on your skis. That's the whole deal.

If you are out of balance, some part of your ski must be over-pressured, so that might cause some chatter. A damper ski will chatter less. Round edges will skid out more than chatter. Skilled skiers will stay in balance and adapt to conditions and equipment characteristics to avoid chatter.

dm

 

[mdf]

Chatter is ALWAYS pilot error.

Oh. I'm pretty sure I could design skis that would chatter for you.

 

[Tony S]

The title of this thread could be the tag line of the forum.

 

[Dave Marshak]

Oh. I'm pretty sure I could design skis that would chatter for you.

I can make any ski chatter. The best skiers can ski any ski without chatter.

dm

 

[François Pugh]

If you overload a ski it will chatter, especially at the tips if you overload the tips. Some skis can take more load than others, especially at the tips.
For example try carving too tight a turn for your skis by tipping to a large angle and weighting the tips hard. They will bend and grip but physics will win and you can't hold a 3 m radius turn at 30 mph (extremes used to illustrate the point). Despite bending the tips into that tight a turn, the ski's mid section won't bend that far, and you have too much momentum to be able to force the turn with the force available. The tips will release, catch again, release again - chatter.

How much you can load up the skis without getting chatter is a measure of the performance of the ski (and the skier).

 

[Paul Lutes]

Chatter is one thing, jibber jabber is entirely another.

 

[BGreen]

That can also be the result of boot cuff alignment. Try moving the cuffs in a little.

 

[Goose]

If you overload a ski it will chatter, especially at the tips if you overload the tips. Some skis can take more load than others, especially at the tips.
For example try carving too tight a turn for your skis by tipping to a large angle and weighting the tips hard. They will bend and grip but physics will win and you can't hold a 3 m radius turn at 30 mph (extremes used to illustrate the point). Despite bending the tips into that tight a turn, the ski's mid section won't bend that far, and you have too much momentum to be able to force the turn with the force available. The tips will release, catch again, release again - chatter.

How much you can load up the skis without getting chatter is a measure of the performance of the ski (and the skier).

I agree. And then add in the leverage and forces of skiers height weight and also harder/icier conditions. being 6'1 250 puts a whole heck of a lot of force to hold on steep icier slope especially if moving at a good clip and certainly if ski edges are not great..

I responded earlier by saying it was something I suffered from a lot when at first on shaped skis a few years ago vs straights. I mentioned balance meaning I was use to loading the tips too much and being too far forward on my shins and was one the things (from my years on straights) I had to learn to back off from a bit and bring balance point a tad back from that and not over steer. And the chatter became less and less an issue fairly quickly. But some hear have implied that chatter would come from not having enough weight forward. Honestly that is a bit confusing because as I described I found the opposite and what you say and what I was sort of implying to be the case earlier. But I suppose and assume too lightly or too heavily weighted fronts may both cause it. Hence proper balance point is key.

 

[François Pugh]

Such is the way with cutting tools. Not enough pressure and it will not cut cleanly, too much and it will balk.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Bought the wife a pair of Volkl 98’s which so has loved in the softer snow we had earlier in the season. With the very icy conditions we have seen the last two weeks she noticed the ski jumps, skips or chatters when she hits the really steep stuff like our normal warmup run on Cascade. The manger Will from our local racing shop Peak Performance were I bought the ski says it is too lightweight to hold her on the super steeps when they are icy. The Pugski experts here are making the case that it is the driver not ski. For fear of getting smacked in the side of the head I have not told my wife that it is her fault not the skis. Instead she is happy back on her old Auras for now and I plan to get her a new pair of the Volkl Secrets. My take on the problem s that she is simply overpowering the ski under these solid conditions. Is it the driver or the ski? I am betting that returning to a strong enough ski will fix the problem.

 

[Josh Matta]

can a 98 be skied on super icy steeps with out chatter? sure but many people who have lateral travel in their turns will not be able to ski it with out chatter no matter how strong or weak the skier is.

Some stiffer skis will resist chatter from lateral movements for sure, but it still does not make the lateral movements correct.

The thing is chatter can be caused by many things, from skiers skills, to the skiers alignment, to the tune on the skis, all the way down to the construction of the skis. typically its applying to enough pressure to get a ski to engage, but not enough enough to keep it engaged.

 

[François Pugh]

Sure she can ski that on ice, she just has to not turn so sharply. Once you ask the ski to turn too much in those conditions, the edge initially bites in and the ski bends and turns, once the turn is stared and getting tighter, the edge flexes and releases so now at less of a bend the edge bites again and bends more as it bites in, and the process starts all over. If the snow were deep enough it would hold, but as she is only gripping the ice at the edge, the flex comes into play. Horses for courses.

 

[PTskier]

And--you're asking more of the wide ski than a narrower ski. The lever arm distance from the ski's center line to its edge matters. The wider ski will need more torsional stiffness due to that factor. Did the ski maker put that into the ski? Would that added torsional stiffness cause problems elsewhere such as when steering and drifting on other snow surfaces?...all considerations in the ski's design.