Canting to straighten knee, effects on skiing?

[CalG]

well then post some picture of videos of you before the alignment and after....

A plea to a higher authority.
Debating fallacy.....

 

[CalG]

I am calling it pure quackery and so far no one is able to objectively defend it.

prove me wrong or I am right in my observations. Show me one example of someone who was canted to accommodate and not go against before and after. Physics doesn't care about your feeling. Picture will prove me wrong. I will not comment again until there is objectivity from the other side, which there can not be. Videos are much harder to alter than photo but why would I alter photos.

\There is no need to alter photos, but only taking the witness of a single position from a single image may be misleading

 

[Philpug]

Getting the center of the knee over the second toe...on both kees will allow matching of leg and edge angles. This can be done with an simple assessment at a good bootfitting shop.

 

[razie]

Getting the center of the knee over the second toe...on both kees will allow matching of leg and edge angles. This can be done with an simple assessment at a good bootfitting shop.

Yes - that's static alignment and it can get a skier within maybe even 80% of what's needed - the dynamic alignment is also important - looking at how the knee moves while skiing, what happens to balance while skiing.

I don't honestly see a big difference between moving the knee or tilting the ski, if you use the same reference. It is easier to think it through for me if I look at what I'm doing to the ski (thick side inside or outside).

@Josh Matta - I am tempted to say the cuff was moved in - it looks softer, but is hard to tell just based on one frame. It should not be done this way really. The cuff should be adjusted so it follows the tibia and then canting should cover the rest - that's how I approach this. I don't move the cuff to compensate for canting - I know it's being done, but it's not straight-forward!

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Yes - that's static alignment and it can get a skier within maybe even 80% of what's needed - the dynamic alignment is also important - looking at how the knee moves while skiing, what happens to balance while skiing.!

Totally agree. Lasers, slabs, strips, etc. it will only get you so far, you need to get on snow and experiment.

 

[CalG]

what a cop out....


you do realize what feels better is typically what a body is used to, not what is actually better.

Honestly if your right about your the idea to bring the ski flat video of before and after will prove me wrong. Picture may even do it. It would objectively prove me wrong. Unless you or someone else can provide objective proof its just hearsay.

It's not my idea to bring the ski flat. It is the idea of some group of fitters and "ski alignment" practitioners. I merely comment on the thought for comparison and completeness. The method has it's followers. Much like the "straight edge across the two skis while standing on a plush pile carpet or other soft surface".

 

[nemesis256]

This sure got out of control...

All this talk about getting on the snow...How many boot fitters are willing to do that? Many are not at the mountain, and fitting boots is expensive enough as it is!

 

[LiquidFeet]

Cut up some old credit cards, tape some duct tape to them to enlarge the pieces a little and to give you something to hang onto, make the pieces small enough to shove between your binding AFD plate and your boot. Put them under the inside, go ski and get video. Put one, or two, under there. You can also put them under the inside of the heel piece just to keep things tilted the same for the toe piece and heel piece of your bindings.

Then put them under the outside, go ski and get video. Then ski without any shims and get video. Do all this on hard snow, the same run, same turn radius, same turn mechanics.

If you feel any differences, note that. If you don't feel any differences but see differences in the video, figure out what you think would be the better of the three approaches and try again, checking more consciously for differences.

The business of shimming the outside of your boot for soft snow and the inside for hard snow is right. You ski on hard snow more often I think. If the difference is perceptible when you're on hard snow, then you've got your answer of what to do.

Before having the boot soles canted, put similar shims under the liner. You can use duct tape on the bottom under your 1st met to simulate shims under the anterior side of the toe piece AFD plate. Shims inside the boot work differently from shims on the boot sole, as someone upthread has pointed out. This twists the foot relative to the lower leg instead of shifting the whole foot-and-lower-leg as a single unit. Twisting the foot can create an angle at the ankle and that can change the tilt of the lower leg, thus moving the knee when you're on hard snow.

Boot canting is a fuzzy art. Trial and error is the best way to find the real solution. Using that laser thingy in the shop is a start, but it doesn't tell the whole story by any means.

If you can get better functional results by working on the liner instead of the boot sole, do that. If it doesn't do what you want, then canting the boot sole may be the last line of attack.

 

[Fuller]

I had a interesting revelation concerning "feelings" (the skiing kind not the emotional ones) and what may be causing them. I've always had a better left turn than a right turn - until I started doing the correct things with my inside ski to initiate a turn - unweight, tip and pull back. Now my right turn is better because my right foot is better at tipping and getting out of the way. Weird.

The point being that there is a lot going on when you ski and it's very hard to isolate the relationship of one body part and record the result let alone predict it.

I will say that Josh contradicted the advice I got from the boot guy who put the measuring device on me and was right. Of course its a coin toss anyway so maybe he just got lucky! I ended up with a 1 degree add to the inside of my left boot. I feel a bit more access to that inside edge and my skis track straighter on the flats. I'd be interested to see what a real credentialed bootfitter would say.

 

[bud heishman]

Hey guys! Interesting thread and seeing the two schools of thought and witchcraft scenario theme here.

From my experience and FWIW there are times when I correct and times when I accommodate meaning move the knee or fill the void. before I decide whether to correct or accommodate and how much, I look at lateral range of motion of the knee going from big toe edge to little toe edge. After placing some degree of shim under the boot sole on my stand, I have customer tip to inside edge then outside edge to see how far they can go without involving the hips, to each side. If the cant strip takes them to or near the limit of their ability to tip the boot onto an inside or outside edge, I see a red flag and reassess my options. In general I am more likely to accommodate rather than correct with skiers who are "O" framed or knees out than a knock kneed "X" framed skier. It is important to first understand the methodology is to begin with the footbed and boot board to get the foot in a neutral position, then adjusting the cuff to get equal distance on either side of the leg. This many times requires maxing out any cuff cant possible and adding appropriate thickness pads to achieve this. Sometimes, with extreme tibual varum I need to grind the lateral side of the boot cuff down to allow the leg room. Last week I had such a customer who even after adjusting cuff to max and adding a 1/2" pad on the medial side of liner, he was still standing on the outside edge of his boot on the stand. After grinding down the lateral boot cuff about 3/4" to make more room for the calf an lower leg to bow out, he was able to stand flat. Once the cuff is reconciled the last thing I do is check the canting under the soles. After checking range of motion to both little toe and big toe edges I will correct or accommodate depending on range of motion in both directions. The goal is to correct if the person has adequate range of motion left to allow them to tip to an edge and not create any discomfort in the joints. If this is not possible I back off until we have a comfortable ability to tip to either edge. Everyone is different but the goal and methodology is the same.

 

[CalG]

Hey guys! Interesting thread and seeing the two schools of thought and witchcraft scenario theme here.

From my experience and FWIW there are times when I correct and times when I accommodate meaning move the knee or fill the void. before I decide whether to correct or accommodate and how much, I look at lateral range of motion of the knee going from big toe edge to little toe edge. After placing some degree of shim under the boot sole on my stand, I have customer tip to inside edge then outside edge to see how far they can go without involving the hips, to each side. If the cant strip takes them to or near the limit of their ability to tip the boot onto an inside or outside edge, I see a red flag and reassess my options. In general I am more likely to accommodate rather than correct with skiers who are "O" framed or knees out than a knock kneed "X" framed skier. It is important to first understand the methodology is to begin with the footbed and boot board to get the foot in a neutral position, then adjusting the cuff to get equal distance on either side of the leg. This many times requires maxing out any cuff cant possible and adding appropriate thickness pads to achieve this. Sometimes, with extreme tibual varum I need to grind the lateral side of the boot cuff down to allow the leg room. Last week I had such a customer who even after adjusting cuff to max and adding a 1/2" pad on the medial side of liner, he was still standing on the outside edge of his boot on the stand. After grinding down the lateral boot cuff about 3/4" to make more room for the calf an lower leg to bow out, he was able to stand flat. Once the cuff is reconciled the last thing I do is check the canting under the soles. After checking range of motion to both little toe and big toe edges I will correct or accommodate depending on range of motion in both directions. The goal is to correct if the person has adequate range of motion left to allow them to tip to an edge and not create any discomfort in the joints. If this is not possible I back off until we have a comfortable ability to tip to either edge. Everyone is different but the goal and methodology is the same.

Bud

When I get to Tahoe, I'm seeking your advice!
I might get there this year, Might not. My youngest son patrols at KW. It's been a while since I've seen him, but I like what I see.

 

[PTskier]

Like this except when accommodating extreme anatomical situations like Bud describes:

My physical therapist even cants my everyday orthotics. Knees generally need to track straight. My right knee tracks inward when flexed. My right kneecap is bone against femur bone on the inside part due to years wear from this mis-tracking, sez the orthopod & the DPT.

 

[nemesis256]

Cut up some old credit cards, tape some duct tape to them to enlarge the pieces a little and to give you something to hang onto, make the pieces small enough to shove between your binding AFD plate and your boot. Put them under the inside, go ski and get video. Put one, or two, under there. You can also put them under the inside of the heel piece just to keep things tilted the same for the toe piece and heel piece of your bindings.

I tried out your experiment today. Not going to bother with taking videos, I already got good results. I used two layers of credit cards. First I started with them on the inside. Turn initiation felt better, it was easier to have my upper body fall into the turn. It felt right. Then I tried them on the outside. That felt like the tails of my skis were slipping from underneath me or trying to turn too fast. It felt wrong.

So what I saw with the lasers seems to be the right direction.

 

[oldschoolskier]

First of all I have a mis-alignment in the right leg (knee ankle) cause by breaking the shin and it not being set correctly at the onset. They are twisted out of line not straight.

How did I adjust my boots to solve this issue. Simple.....cuff alignment to start. Two ski lots. Three review tracks left skiing and realized the body can adjusted to the new condition if a little effort is made. No further work required.

So I definitely vote on hill review is required and all corrections first be made technique wise before hardware (boot, ski, binding) corrections be made.

My concern always has been, does a hardware correction, potentially cause other issues that could have been avoided had one gone the longer route of fix first technically.

Not saying hardware fixes are bad, just that should be applied systematicly as part of bigger solution.

 

[PTskier]

One school of thought fashions cants that adjust the SKI under the skier to lay flat on a horizontal surface when the skier is standing "normally".

What does this do for the skis' contact with the snow as the skier moves up & down, moves with one leg straight & the other flexed, then switches sides? I think the canting with the feet centered under the knees allows for better ski/snow contact as the skier moves.

One can self evaluate. On a gentle pitch, on one foot, ski straight, ski 45° to the right, ski 45° to the left. Switch feet & do it again. Are your tracks straight without any body movements to get the track straight? If not, see an alignment specialist.

 

[CalG]

What does this do for the skis' contact with the snow as the skier moves up & down, moves with one leg straight & the other flexed, then switches sides? I think the canting with the feet centered under the knees allows for better ski/snow contact as the skier moves.

One can self evaluate. On a gentle pitch, on one foot, ski straight, ski 45° to the right, ski 45° to the left. Switch feet & do it again. Are your tracks straight without any body movements to get the track straight? If not, see an alignment specialist.

How might the evaluation result when the "test" is done in 6 inches of fresh soft snow?

 

[Uncle-A]

Getting the center of the knee over the second toe...on both kees will allow matching of leg and edge angles. This can be done with an simple assessment at a good bootfitting shop.

Hey guys! Interesting thread and seeing the two schools of thought and witchcraft scenario theme here.

From my experience and FWIW there are times when I correct and times when I accommodate meaning move the knee or fill the void. before I decide whether to correct or accommodate and how much, I look at lateral range of motion of the knee going from big toe edge to little toe edge. After placing some degree of shim under the boot sole on my stand, I have customer tip to inside edge then outside edge to see how far they can go without involving the hips, to each side. If the cant strip takes them to or near the limit of their ability to tip the boot onto an inside or outside edge, I see a red flag and reassess my options. In general I am more likely to accommodate rather than correct with skiers who are "O" framed or knees out than a knock kneed "X" framed skier. It is important to first understand the methodology is to begin with the footbed and boot board to get the foot in a neutral position, then adjusting the cuff to get equal distance on either side of the leg. This many times requires maxing out any cuff cant possible and adding appropriate thickness pads to achieve this. Sometimes, with extreme tibual varum I need to grind the lateral side of the boot cuff down to allow the leg room. Last week I had such a customer who even after adjusting cuff to max and adding a 1/2" pad on the medial side of liner, he was still standing on the outside edge of his boot on the stand. After grinding down the lateral boot cuff about 3/4" to make more room for the calf an lower leg to bow out, he was able to stand flat. Once the cuff is reconciled the last thing I do is check the canting under the soles. After checking range of motion to both little toe and big toe edges I will correct or accommodate depending on range of motion in both directions. The goal is to correct if the person has adequate range of motion left to allow them to tip to an edge and not create any discomfort in the joints. If this is not possible I back off until we have a comfortable ability to tip to either edge. Everyone is different but the goal and methodology is the same.

Like this except when accommodating extreme anatomical situations like Bud describes:

My physical therapist even cants my everyday orthotics. Knees generally need to track straight. My right knee tracks inward when flexed. My right kneecap is bone against femur bone on the inside part due to years wear from this mis-tracking, sez the orthopod & the DPT.

These quotes seem to lay out the cuff alignment process and it is not difficult to do and the benefit you get doing it are worth the effort. The issue I see is finding a good tech to do it because it is not something you can do yourself. I have used cants as well as cuff adjustments and my feeling is that getting the skis flat when the legs and or feet are not can only help your skiing. Now I am only using cuff alignment but only because I have not found a good measuring devise to give me an accurate cant size.

 

[Jersey Skier]

These quotes seem to lay out the cuff alignment process and it is not difficult to do and the benefit you get doing it are worth the effort. The issue I see is finding a good tech to do it because it is not something you can do yourself. I have used cants as well as cuff adjustments and my feeling is that getting the skis flat when the legs and or feet are not can only help your skiing. Now I am only using cuff alignment but only because I have not found a good measuring devise to give me an accurate cant size.

If you are interested in seeing someone about getting your boots canted I have the contact info for Billy Kaplan. He used to post on Epic along time go as Cantman. He does great work and is about an hour South of you.

 

[Uncle-A]

If you are interested in seeing someone about getting your boots canted I have the contact info for Billy Kaplan. He used to post on Epic along time go as Cantman. He does great work and is about an hour South of you.

Yes, thanks if you could PM me with his contact info or if I need some type of introduction that would be great.

 

[milkman]

I had canted boots 25 years ago. These boots skied well but the flat soles contributed to several walking falls so I replaced them and got new orthotics and cuff alignment. Recently a ski town physical therapist told me that I did not need orthotics or canting. They thought I only needed to strengthen the leg that had a collapsing knee. Frankly I've tried the exercise approach in the past and usually created more discomfort than strength. I'm in the market for new boots. How can I, as an informed consumer, evaluate the advice of these various professionals?