Building a junior ski racer from an intermediate

[Wolfski]

Boots are the most important piece of equipment, hit the swaps as you and every other parent goes through this, they're growing kids.
As @K2Rat and @ScottB stated, spend some time in the gates but learn to SKI, in EVERY condition, they know with what they speak.
A 10 year old is obviously still developing both physically and mentally so keep the interest up and vary the sports all year long until the commitment will not allow it, if it ever does.
Do not become a helicopter parent in the sport but stay involved and be the supportive parent
Make sure that your youngster has fun before during and after the training/lessons, at this age they need to look forward to the sessions, not suffer them
Family, School, Friends, Social and Sport any athlete or person for that matter needs balance and support both in their lives and in their sport. You as a parent direct them as to which one is most important.

 

[Karl B]

For a 10 yr old I would not get overly concerned about dryland training. I would however, encourage the youth to participate/compete in other sports in the off-season. This will help to develop a more rounded athlete and will sharpen the their motor skills. Although I personally am not a soccer fan (baseball coach for 25 years) soccer is a great sport for developing endurance and feet skills. Tennis and volleyball are also great sports for feet skills and hand/eye coordination. Recreational (not travel league) Baseball/Softball while not doing much for endurance will help to instill a competitive spirit. Focused dryland training can become boring for a 10 yr old with a relatively short attention span. Organized sports will fill the role much better and the child will have much more fun in the meantime. I would save dryland training for a time when the youth is more mature and ready to make a bigger commitment to ski racing.

Karl

 

[Jed Peters]

My experience is that the kids that ski the most have the best chance to improve the most and become "ski racers".

 

[Swede]

Yes, "volume" is needed. I see that "building a racer" is a little unclear, as pointed out -- what does it mean? I have seen lots of kids becoming great, I mean head turning great, skiers through U10-U12-U14-U16, but only a handful of them have become competent JR racers. You have to (learn to) love the competitive ingredient and deal with the incredible stress a race normally creates for an individual. It can only be trained in race like environments. Train like you race -- race like you train. With that said, free skiing and drills are a natural part of any program inmo. You need both to be good. Volume.

 

[razie]

My experience is that the kids that ski the most have the best chance to improve the most and become "ski racers".

fair enough... as long as we remember that "practice does not make perfect, practice just makes permanent, only perfect practice makes perfect"...

 

[JPL]

fair enough... as long as we remember that "practice does not make perfect, practice just makes permanent, only perfect practice makes perfect"...
Thats a long standing saying that I believe it can be true and untrue. If you are out doing "your version" of any sport you are developing a familiarity with it, then when asked to change if they are willing they can rather easily since they have already developed some sense of balance. As an example there are quite a few park kids at our area that go out for the HS ski teams, zero to near zero coaching experience, hodge podge of equipment but their raw talent is impressive. Springy kids whose starts look awsome and they all can skate like crazy. So I feel time on snow is not wasted per say, avoiding gates to do something else if your gate time is limited is a mistake, generally.

 

[L&AirC]

This question I throw out to the coaches, instructors and parents (though there is a reason I'm posting this in the race forum and not ski school): If I bring you a typical intermediate, ten year old on rental level skis (say Nordica FireArrow) or possibly a small multi-event ski, boots that are at least one finger too big, parents who are new to the sport and probably ski at the same level as the child, probably discovered NASTAR last season, how do you turn them into a ski racer? We will say that the parents/child have committed to a one or two-day program, and probably have a bit of sticker shock, though nothing is completely off the table. Getting a pair of new boots and 1-3 new/new to them pairs of skis isn't off the table, but it will be an unexpected expense. Where would you start? I will withhold my thoughts until later because I want some of your views and wisdom.

To get the ball rolling, some things to consider are equipment, dryland training, early season drills and progressions. If you want to go so far as specific equipment to get or avoid, specific drills, etc., go for it.

BG,
I coach U10s and every season I get a couple of these kids. Some show up in late January. I usually talk to the parents and then take the kid out for a spin before they even join. I pair the prospect up with one of the other athletes as a buddy to make sure they don't feel left out and I tell the seasoned athlete that they are responsible for them (i.e. where to go, ride the lift and make them feel accepted). It's a huge commitment (gear, training, season pass etc) and if the athlete doesn't want to be there, or if the parents can't commit to two full days, I steer them to some of the less demanding programs. Especially if they're showing up late. Sometimes I recommend they step back before forward; finish the season in the Development program to get the fundamentals and the feel of the commitment, and the following season start the Race program. Sometimes jumping in the deep end is too much and a turn off. Rule # 1 is to be safe, #2 is have fun and #3 is to learn how to ski like a racer. Sometimes starting out as a U10 or U12 is too much based on current abilities and the athletes get frustrated because they can't keep up and know they are holding everyone else back or worse, they are intimidated by the task (i.e. skiing on one ski and getting off the lift on one ski).

If it is at the start of the season, I try to always go through the gear with the (all) athletes and then have a private conversation with the parents on my recommendations. I had a female athlete a year or two ago come out of her boots when we did unbuckle drills (I was in a 120 flex btw). Her boots were so big the liners stayed on her feet and her boots were still in the bindings! She still became a very good skier even though her parents didn't replace her boots until the following season.

This past season I inherited a male athlete that was a competitive athlete and good all around skier, but not a racer. He might have done some NASTAR but that was it. By the end of the season he was keeping up with the kids that had been in the program since they were 5. He had decent boots but I'm pretty sure he wasn't on race skis. His sister who is a year older but not as strong a skier, was in a Development program and joined the U10s for the last month of the season. This was mostly to get her ready for moving up to the U12s the following season. She struggled at first but started catching up. I wish I had her the whole season. They both did great!

The sister had some issues at first as she wasn't yet on her edges, but like her brother she's a good athlete and pushed herself. I loved working with her.

One of the things I've come to realize is that some of the parents, especially if they are new to racing or even skiing, think racing is just skiing but some times you go through gates. That isn't accurate at all. Racing is hard. The drills are hard and keeping it fun is hard. It isn't for everyone. I'll always remember the 7 year old boy that after skiing all morning in the rain, as we were breaking for lunch he was (literally) wringing out his mittens and he said "Meet back here at 1, right?" He's the one that has the right attitude to be a racer.

As far as gear goes, I would love to see the kids on race skis and in race boots, but that isn't always an option so "Run what you brung". Like I said above, I recommend gear mods out of ear shot of the kids. Nothing worse for a parent than to have their kid whining to them about the crappy gear they have, especially after the parent has shelled out close to $2K.

Yes having perfect fitting boots is perfect but if you don't have them at first, and you keep at it, when you do, you will improve dramatically. crgildart has a point but also has he stated, don't hesitate to upgrade if you can.

Skis for U12 "should" be an SL and a GS but there are several "depends". Do they have the ability, are the big enough, will the be on two crappy sets of skis instead of one good pair.

That all for now.

Ken

 

[BGreen]

I meant to come back to this thread after everyone else weighed in, and I forgot. I was considering coaching the one-day only race kids to open up some time to ski with my family, and maybe even train and race myself. I appreciated all the responses -- the ones that agreed with my views, the ones that presented a realistic view of the age/ability combo, and the ones who disagree. What I've seen from that group as a general statement is boots that are too big and stiff, and skis that only get tuned before a race. Everyone is there to ski hard and have fun above all else. There are no delusions of grandeur. Now, don't discount that someone could come into a one day program as a natural talent and surprise some people. It happens.

I have watched our own coaching staff handle these challenges differently. The coach in our program who in my opinion coached the most improved group from the one day program ignored equipment problem (though there were fewer in that group) and only addressed the most glaring technical issues, and just skied the kids hard from lift open to lift close over the most challenging terrain on the mountain. They had access to gate training in the afternoon, but the arena and courses were set. This coach also had a group of U14 girls that were extremely supportive of each other, and I think that was a factor as well. I've worked with this coach in the past and I know from experience he will make any situation fun and educational for his athletes. They will know they are having fun, but they may not know how much they are learning.

Addressing some of the comments throughout the thread, a lot of people said boots are important. For the coaches on a one-day- or two-day-program, how do you handle that? We did everything short of handing kids a soft, well-fitting boot, yet many parents decided just to buy something on ebay that seemed like a good boot. Coaches don't have time to deal with this (again, one day a week, starting late November).

I generally advocate three pair of skis (all-mountain, slalom, GS) after U10, and I don't know if that is a good idea for this level or not. The logic is I want kids to have an all mountain ski they can hit a rock with and it won't affect their training or racing. Also, skiing powder or all mountain conditions on a slalom ski is no fun. If you don't believe that, just watch the difference in speeds of the kids when you hand them a fat ski and tell them to have fun. As for the need for slalom and GS, I'm a little flexible there, but that partly has to do with the course sets I see at races. A ski that will work well on a straight, bouncy 21m GS is not going to work on an 8m slalom that looks like it was set with a sewing machine. Further, I really want to encourage kids to take a proper line, and a slalom ski will encourage them to pinch in GS. Part of the problem, is with the number of races, the kids could reasonably see three race runs of slalom (one SL/SL race, one run SL at championships), depending on how the schedule shakes out. With a one-day program, you are preparing for the next race more than building an overall skill base.

The one thing no one really addressed, which surprised me a bit, is what kind of drills are you working on with that age group. I know everyone starts at different levels, blah blah blah, but I'm pretty sure there are some standard progressions that you work through regardless of level.

 

[markojp]

It's only page 2. Plenty of time to talk about drills. What do you to have your kids do on the hill? What part of the country is your home base?

 

[Ohioskier]

Just noticed the thread hear and appreciate all of the input. I have a daughter that just turned 9 this month and is in our local race program and has been for several seasons. Great advice here that mirrors what she has done. Her coach told me not to even worry about gates and just have her ski and work on drills. Sure we take a run or two per week on Nastar course but typically the line is long and she can get several runs in before her turn. Honestly she has as much fun working her drills one foot turns on steeper terrain and skiing backwards down easier terrain. Her footwork is very good and technique is sound on non optimal conditions icy moguls etc doesn't phase her at all. Kid just wants to do drills over skiing a free run and going fast. I don't even think we do a race this year and just ski a lot and let her work on whatever she wants to drill wise. I have seen too many parents push too hard at young ages and cause damage to kid and kids psyche in high school and adult life. I just figure I'll let things take their course and if she decides to go for it in a couple years then we make a move and go balls out. If she's happy just having fun then no worries we take great trips and I'll do best to keep up.

I see too many parents pushing to hard. Let the kids decide their future. Make decisions based upon coaches evaluation and kids input. Hopefully you will have a coach today hey your kid has a legitimate shot before spending the $$$$$ on trying to make them an Olympic athlete. If coach says he or she has a shot and they say I'd rather not accept that and have them pursue their interests.

Thanks for all the advice from coaches. Hopefully there is more coming.

 

[Swede]

Skiing w/o poles is great.

 

[Ohioskier]

Skiing w/o poles is great.

Good point. Another thing we did with my daughter. Give her poles and her foot work isn't as good. Take them away and let her focus in on their footwork and body position. Better to get that right and add poles in after she masters other essentials.

Just curious on another subject other than racing. Is there any ski areas that offer a good mogul clinic for advanced skiers ? I'm wanting to let her have at it and we really don't have moguls at home ski area.

 

[markojp]

Just curious on another subject other than racing. Is there any ski areas that offer a good mogul clinic for advanced skiers ? I'm wanting to let her have at it and we really don't have moguls at home ski area.

Pretty much any western area will have bump clinics or people who can give you a good bump session. Winter Park, Taos, etc... come to mind.

 

[Burton]

Addressing some of the comments throughout the thread, a lot of people said boots are important. For the coaches on a one-day- or two-day-program, how do you handle that? We did everything short of handing kids a soft, well-fitting boot, yet many parents decided just to buy something on ebay that seemed like a good boot. Coaches don't have time to deal with this (again, one day a week, starting late November)....

...The one thing no one really addressed, which surprised me a bit, is what kind of drills are you working on with that age group. I know everyone starts at different levels, blah blah blah, but I'm pretty sure there are some standard progressions that you work through regardless of level.

I coach kids that are your focus here--more or less a "learn to race" Buddy Warner program, lots of U-10s. Plus I have my own U-10 and first year U-12 in the program. Boots are tricky in this range, as it is right around the transition zone from little kid boots (three buckle, zero bells and whistles like cuff or stiffness adjustment) and junior race boots (Lange RS 60 on up). I've got my own kids in the RS 60 and 65s, but they're both between 60-70 pounds and not particularly tall, so I worry they're over-booted. What do you recommend for solid U-10s in the 60-80 pound range?

On drills, I lean on the fundamentals no matter the skier ability, focus on the feet first. Side slips with edge sets, garlands, one ski, building to Scholpys, up and overs, to name a few, with some good bump runs in the mix.

 

[dlague]

Boots are always tough on growing kids for racing. My ex wife took my son to buy race boots when he was 12 and bought them in September at a ski shop. They fitted him tight, however, he was in a growth spurt and by January they were hurting and not helping him. I took the boots back and asked why they would put him into a tight fitting boot knowing that they will grow. He went on to explain his views on tight fit and control. I told him that I wanted a size up for room to grow and that worked well. The stiffness of the boot compensated for the extra toe room. Now, fortunately the shop was willing to take the old boots back and replace them at no cost - I did have to make my argument.

Now, I have a niece that is now 10 who started jr racing at age 5-6. While it was more of a racing clinic at that age, she was using recreational skis and boots and this year will be the first year where she will have jr race skis and boots. She has done very will with her daily drivers up to this point. When starting off at any age the skis and boots do not have to be race gear. Being new to racing, they are not going to be competitive in the first year - they can be but more than likely not. Use the first year to gain skills and knowledge as well as a feel for the sport. Most jr ski racing clubs or teams run clinics all the time as training. Or son started when he was 10 using his rec gear and at age 12 we got him used race gear. Funny thing is - by age 15 he was done with it and is really more of an off piste skier now and does not really like the groomers.

Now to another extreme, I have a nephew that was an intermediate skier (age 12) who just was not progressing any more and lessons were adding up so I told my sister to put him on a race team. Well she did but in doing so bought him all new race skis, boots, GS suits, shin guards, punch covers etc. While he did improve and is a much better skier now, it is my opinion that it was not the gear that helped him improve but the training. He did it for one year. My sister sold the gear and got about 50% of the cost back. This was a good example of why you do not by specialized gear immediately.

 

[Swede]

Thing with kiddie gear is, some stuff you're practising on usually in U10 and def by U12, can't be done properly. So allthough brands etc. isn't important at all, the right size and type of gear is. And sharp edges. Try to have a go at an icy U12 SL course on your allmountains with half dull edges.

 

[razie]

I've got my own kids in the RS 60 and 65s, but they're both between 60-70 pounds and not particularly tall, so I worry they're over-booted. What do you recommend for solid U-10s in the 60-80 pound range?

It is a very tricky age group for equipment, for sure, but I would recommend focusing on not just that number, but how the boots work for the respective kid, this number is just one of many in the fore/aft equation. It may be a chicken/egg thing, but from the season before, you could form an opinion as to who's overskiing them, who can't bend the ankles, whose cuffs are at the wrong angle etc. If not at u10, at u12 this becomes obvious and a little in the right direction in fore/aft setup can go a long way... I have had athletes and parents go WOW (or CRAP) in one run with a different setup.

You have an entire season to cut/grind/shim as well and see how that works. You apparently have a long way to go with yours and I totally wish I knew back then what I know now (FIS - too late)!! If parents start complaining about the resale value of them customized boots, give them my # - I can serve an earful on demand!

@BGreen - the drills are the drills - I mean they're in the book and the book says "use this for that skill". If you're looking for our favorite drills - in my case, I focus on edging and carving over pivoting and twisting, so I prefer that category of drills, as I got it into my head that I am trying to create great skiers as opposed to ordinary points-chasers (yeah, I'll get a lot of flak for this one)... but that's me!

Good point though - I think this was not addressed directly above.

 

[BGreen]

@razie Pivot/steer is more of a CSIA thing than USSA. USSA pushes edging skills and rotary skills (pivot slips) but the concept of pivoting a ski comes later. However typical YSL courses will require pivoting.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. My sister coaches in Canada and we compare notes. She was quite surprised how much pivot/steer was pushed as a skill that the coaches were supposed to teach.

 

[razie]

@razie Pivot/steer is more of a CSIA thing than USSA. USSA pushes edging skills and rotary skills (pivot slips) but the concept of pivoting a ski comes later. However typical YSL courses will require pivoting.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. My sister coaches in Canada and we compare notes. She was quite surprised how much pivot/steer was pushed as a skill that the coaches were supposed to teach.

Yeah - that's why I think I brought it up: way too much focus on pivoting sometimes for my taste, with young racers, 'round here at least (well, really "steering", as in the "more evolved version").

Good on USSA then... I would not really focus much on developing pivoting skills even later - my take on that is now that if the kid can carve, he/she'll carve as much as he can and pivot when he has to. If we teach them to pivot (and that's also with the course setting and environment/drill sets) then he'll pivot as much as he can and never be truly fast.

I'd like to see a racer that can carve well but cannot steer/pivot! I'll eat my hat! You can always tell the racer that's planted confidently on the outside foot from those that are tentatively skidding down the course.

Carving a course top to bottom and speed control while carving is much harder to learn and takes a lot more time to learn and for me is in the same category with @Burton 's great focus on fundamentals as opposed to just getting down the course fast early, which pivoting often facilitates.

Warren W was big on this as well, in both books. I quote from memory: "when teaching racers, I always emphasize controlling speed with carving, not with pivoting".

Establishing long term goals is very important here. Being able to guide an athlete (ok, kid) to not focus on podium at 10 but promise that if he/she focuses on fundamentals, that he/she'd have a much better chance when it matters, at 16, is way better.

I've seen talented athletes that podium several times in a row at 11 with flawed technique and then become uncoacheable... and back in the middle of the pack at U16



p.s. That doesn't mean I don't believe in "shmearing" or such - it's just a different approach to it.

 

[SkiSpeed]

https://www.skiracing.com/premium/5-pieces-of-advice-from-the-parents-of-us-ski-stars


I realize that this is from the premium section of Ski Racing and that some folks may not be able to access it, but I hope that you can. Given the great comments on this thread so far, I think this piece helps to further the discussion.