Building a junior ski racer from an intermediate

[BGreen]

This question I throw out to the coaches, instructors and parents (though there is a reason I'm posting this in the race forum and not ski school): If I bring you a typical intermediate, ten year old on rental level skis (say Nordica FireArrow) or possibly a small multi-event ski, boots that are at least one finger too big, parents who are new to the sport and probably ski at the same level as the child, probably discovered NASTAR last season, how do you turn them into a ski racer? We will say that the parents/child have committed to a one or two-day program, and probably have a bit of sticker shock, though nothing is completely off the table. Getting a pair of new boots and 1-3 new/new to them pairs of skis isn't off the table, but it will be an unexpected expense. Where would you start? I will withhold my thoughts until later because I want some of your views and wisdom.

To get the ball rolling, some things to consider are equipment, dryland training, early season drills and progressions. If you want to go so far as specific equipment to get or avoid, specific drills, etc., go for it.

 

[Philpug]

Great thread topic! #inforgreatinsightandcomments

 

[Jilly]

Sounds like a good plan. So...does this family have access to a club level program? Most ski areas have a non competitive league to get everyone started. At this point, skills are a necessity too. This way they are not racing against seasoned racers yet. They're just getting their feet wet.

Equipment. I'd be looking at new to them as the swaps will be starting soon for skis. Boots...get those right and spend the money there, will maybe not for kiddo. They will not always be used for racing.

Training....just about anything you would do for skiing in general.

 

[crgildart]

There is strength to be gained from skiing hard on gear that isn't ideal. Sloppy boots can help fore/aft management. Some folks even spend a little time on ski blades to get better under foot feel. It's kind of like kids getting a little dirty from time to time and eating stuff that could be cleaner... builds up the immunities. That said, it also builds terrible habits that are difficult to break so only to a certain point are there positive returns. Start somewhere but get better and better gear as soon as you have pushed what you have to the limits.

 

[BGreen]

Sounds like a good plan. So...does this family have access to a club level program? Most ski areas have a non competitive league to get everyone started. At this point, skills are a necessity too. This way they are not racing against seasoned racers yet. They're just getting their feet wet.

For sake of keeping everyone on the same page, we'll assume that the child is enrolled in a one- or two-day-a-week program that is either intro to racing and/or competing with similar level athletes from other programs. In the U.S., that would be Youth Ski League (YSL), in Canada that may be more intra-club competition or Nancy Greene Ski League. Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the Canadian system. I'm going to declare age class level competition to be beyond the scope of this thread, as is learning to french fry instead of pizza, just in the opposite direction.

Training....just about anything you would do for skiing in general.

Such as ...

 

[Philpug]

There is strength to be gained from skiing hard on gear that isn't ideal. Sloppy boots can help fore/aft management.

I am not sure I agree with this which sounds like a rationalization. We want to make the sport as enjoyable as possible, personally I try to set kids..and everyone up for success..especially with boots. Yes I have heard instructors starting drills with having boots unbuckled...every time that instructor is a 150 flex plug boot that is a sub one finger fit that will ski basically the same if it was buckled or unbuckled.

 

[Karl B]

Definitely a pair of boots that fit properly. A single pair of skis will suffice. Used skis at this level are fine. The sidecut radius does not have enough difference from a GS to Slalom to make much difference at this point. Focus on skills. Most intermediate kids at the age of 10 will still throw in a wedge when starting their turns and sit in the back seat. Once the child is carving with his/her weight where it belongs, then we can worry about gates. After the child develops the skills and confidence we will consider upgrading the equipment.

Karl

 

[coskigirl]

I am not sure I agree with this which sounds like a rationalization. We want to make the sport as enjoyable as possible, personally I try to set kids..and everyone up for success..especially with boots. Yes I have heard instructors starting drills with having boots unbuckled...every time that instructor is a 150 flex plug boot that is a sub one finger fit that will ski basically the same if it was buckled or unbuckled.

Agreed! And while it might help fore/aft balance I would say that experience would be better for an athlete further along in their skills. Get the kid in good boots first and foremost.

 

[markojp]

There is strength to be gained from skiing hard on gear that isn't ideal. Sloppy boots can help fore/aft management. Some folks even spend a little time on ski blades to get better under foot feel. It's kind of like kids getting a little dirty from time to time and eating stuff that could be cleaner... builds up the immunities. That said, it also builds terrible habits that are difficult to break so only to a certain point are there positive returns. Start somewhere but get better and better gear as soon as you have pushed what you have to the limits.

Going to go the tough love route, but this is incredibly poor advice and as an instructor and coach who has had to have 'the talk' with parents about gear limiting their kids' skiing, I couldn't disagree with you more. It's NOT hard to find servicable gear that actually fits. If I want my kid to overcome gear and help his skiing, I'll teach him to telemark, and yes, ski/boots will fit.

Most race clubs have gear swaps and exchanges. The worse thing for a kid is to show up in boots that they can pour their aquarium into and take their fish buddies skiing with them. Locally, there's very little problem finding good used kids gear. All the race programs have facebook swap pages with pricing pennies on the dollar and at least two local shops committed to servicing the race community.

For the OP's query, it's really about people. Get on the phone and contact the local race club(s) and bend their ear. Visit the shop(s) they recommend and talk to knowledgable staff about gear questions... this is the perfect time of year to have these conversations.
The footwork is the foundation for fun and great future experiences/relationships that can last a lifetime.

 

[Karl B]

I forgot to add, FUN is paramount to improvement. A young athlete will not have any fun when his/her feet hurt from boots that are too big or too small.

 

[crgildart]

I'd agree "more than one finger too big" is pretty horrible. I wasn't reading that part correctly, but I still say getting hours on mostly good, but not perfect gear is better than not skiing. Ski what you got and replace ASAP when needed.

 

[Jack skis]

Yeah, boots that fit and one pair of good skis -- skis that are appropriate for gates more than powder, ask local clubs/shops with race interests. I'll also put in a vote for NASTAR. Inexpensive way to get experience on course and have fun. NASTAR lets you compete with your age and even gender (if that's important) and has levels from Bronze to Platinum so you can see progress. Some might say it's not real racing, but real racers have started there.

 

[Eleeski]

Equipment, including boots, is irrelevant - because it needs to be right. You will be buying lots of stuff as the kid grows to keep the kid in equipment that works. Don't stress over the hardware, but be willing to open your wallet when needed. Used is OK but stay off crappy or ill fitting equipment if you want the kid to excel.

What matters is having a good group of kids around. They need enough talent that your kid thinks that high placement is normal. They need to be nice kids that your kid will enjoy being with. Coaching needs to be organized, consistent, reasonable and fun.

I coach a lot of waterskiers (mostly college kids) and have a son who is waterskiing at an elite level. The camaraderie of the group matters more than anything else as a predictor of the individual's success.

Success comes from passion. Make it fun enough that the kid gets the passion to drive the dedication to the training.

Sticker shock? It is way more expensive than the initial bill to develop a high level skier. Performance is expensive.

Not every kid will be a star. Recognize that and have realistic expectations. The kid may grow to just enjoy skiing - that's a win in itself.

Eric

 

[Muleski]

BTW, the OP is a very experienced coach. Not sure if that was clear. I think he's curious about how the rest of us might approach this, have approached it, or have been approached with it. I'm short on time. Will weigh in later with more.

Boots are beyond critical in terms of fit, and getting dialed. Skis matter a great deal, but yes, there are always used skis around. Good, well cared for junior race skis. Getting this 10 year old in a good boot, and I would suggest a pair of GS skis and SL skis will help him in his progress.

Turning a kid, age 10, as he describes, "into a ski racer" is a bit of a trick question, IMO. It depends on what a ski racer is. And what the end game for that kid might be. It's a big horizon.

The kid is probably not reaching the WC, or the USST unless he is a top .0001% athlete, and suddenly able to be on snow pretty much year round. If he were 12, I would say no chance at all. None. I still think it's not even worth thinking about that dream.

Now if "ski racing" expands, as it will to age group stuff, then maybe high school or middle school teams, maybe club skiing in college, and of course NASTAR, beer leagues, town leagues, Masters, etc., such a young guy can become a ski racer and have an absolute life long BALL with it.
A blast.

The effect of the other kids in the "group" is absolutely huge. Our kids, 30ish, count the kids that they raced with, all the way through, as their closest friends. A lot of synergy with those kids, and a lot of support.

I'm too involved with the really driven ones, their coaches, their parents, their techs, their equipment reps, and so on. The arms race is fully on, and unfortunately it works. Those ski racers have been at it for a long time by age 10.

One of the founding fathers of the World Cup, and a granddad of US skiing is pretty upset that US racing {and to a large degree World ski racing} now takes a ton of money. The demographics of successful ski racers are totally different than they were a generation ago. Phil and Steve Mahre would have no shot today. None. It's not a sport that favors mountain town kids. It favors kids form families with a lot of resources who can put their kids in mountain towns, and on snow 5+ days a week. With exceptional "everything" at work.

Depends on the vision, the goals, and the end game, IMO.

 

[ScotsSkier]

some great advice above, (providing you ignore CRG! ) At starting out stage in racing the LAST thing you want to do is to try to handicap them on boots that dont have a decent fit. doesn't mean spending $0000s on them but need a decent fit and foot hold. And maybe be prepared tp change them mid season as foot grows. Like has been said, lots of used equipment available since there will be a high turnover. Also make sure the kid can actually flex the boot.

Starting out at 10 I would basically ignore gates! focus on getting them to enjoy skiing with a like minded group and a coach that understands kids. And ski the whole mountain, on a race ski, regardless of snow conditions. No fatties, no twin-tips. At this stage you want to get them comfortable attacking anything. The fun factor is a hugely important part!.

Most of the kids i see in our programs at this age are looking to have fun but you can always spot the ones that are going through the motions because mom/dad wants them to try it. Help them overcome fears and initially focus on staying on their feet and keeping up with the group as speed increases. Linked recoveries is not a bad thing! Then start building in the elements of technique. But as you know, the chances of them focusing on more than a max of 2 technique elements in a training day is minute! Start introduction with brushes and stubbies so they start to learn line without the fear (or conversely the perceived need to hit!! ) gates.

Hmm, maybe coaching Masters, many of whom have never skied gates before, is not that much different than kids after all!!! (but on the plus side Masters have checkbooks!) And also you need to quickly understand the learning/repsonse style of each individual, e.g. who can handle tough love, who needs a confidence boost etc. At least with kids you dont have to try to undo 40 years of bad habits!!

 

[4ster]

Others have or will cover the equipment & logistics puzzle. From a strictly skill development POV... Primary focus should be on carving! If the foundation is nurtured the potential talent will rise. The rest will take care of itself... maybe.

When not on skis, roller blades, ice skates, trail running, MTB, BMX, MotoX, gymnastics, waterskiing, soccer, tennis, surfing & other balance while moving activities can be fun & useful.

Emulation for this age & younger is natural & beneficial. Exposure to the correct role models is essential! Finding a coach who can walk the talk is a step in the right direction. If the child can be exposed to the "best of the best" i.e. Shiffrin, Hirscher etc. either through video or by seizing the opportunity to actually attend a WC race the impact can last a lifetime.

On snow time is a balancing act between skill focused drills that are presented in a fun, game-like atmosphere & all mountain/all condition skiing. Both can be done in a friendly, competitive yet supportive atmosphere. Plenty of time should be spent on non intimidating terrain early on so the athlete can develop essential accelerating movements & avoid braking, defensive habits. Throwing a child into difficult terrain & conditions too soon without anchoring the proper building blocks can be a deal breaker. This can cause the child to loose confidence & take a huge step backwards. Parents are often the guilty parties here & should be instructed to only reinforce the positive steps the athlete & coach are currently pursuing.

Park-like terrain gardens with rollers, spines, banked turns & well designed jumps are great, I wish SAM would provide more of this that is more specific to developing movements than the generic big air & rails parks.

As far as tactics, I agree with @ScotsSkier in that the use of brushes, stubbies or even just dye on the slope are great tools for learning timing & line. My old ski pal Victor (a former Masters SL World Champion) would train SL by shinning the scrub oak during early season powder days while the less successful race guys were battling soft snow trying to get gates in the powdery, thin snow pack.

8yo O-man. We may actually put him in some gates by the time he's 10 but he will more likely be a World Champion DH Mountain Biker, or Librarian ...

13yo Emma has already seen a few gates but Flyfishing beckons...

 

[Swede]

As a parent who have gone through U10-U16 recently with my daughter, I would like to add one thing that (I believe) haven't been covered:

Start racing a.s.a.p. Get the kid used to and comfortable with the format. As they grow older, a ski race becomes more and more intimidating and scary. Lots of racing in a fun and playful atmosphere at a young age will create a foundation for the U14-U16 years.

Others beat me to the equipment, but the right size and type of gear is crucial if we want to give the kid a fair chance to learn.

EDIT

Also want to add: creating a fun group to be in is super important and a strong motivator for hanging in there. Team building stuff. Activities outside snow season, social media ...

 

[razie]

Of course, good fitting boots are no1 and a size appropriate pair of used skis no3, but a good "master coach" and a training group (club/team) is no2. He won't do this alone.

I somewhat changed my view in the past few years. I now think developing great technique is a must! Many racers get it randomly, self-selecting from a big pool of students, so if you start with the thought of turning a specific random kid into a great racer, this is the critical ingredient... not time in gates at a young age or training volume or VOx (which of course matter, but are not critical).

So... I would focus on skiing any terrain with good technique and working to build good fundamentals first. Things like using the ankles, knees to skis, carving etc. That is the hardest to build and the age is appropriate for this - you have 3 or so seasons to engrain the most effective movements... so he doesn't end up just another gate basher.

Less focus on gates and racing at this age - lots of technical free skiing and environments with brushies etc.

Also, at this age, developing overall sports skills is important, so make sure he/she is actively exposed to many sports.

Otherwise, have a long term plan, don't go for short term success. This will sometimes make you avoid competitions (especially as they reduce training time).

...

 

[K2 Rat]

I coach u12's @ Mount Snow Academy in Vermont so I am familiar with this age group, but work with more experienced kids. Most of my comments below have already been touched on :
1) Boots - proper fit and the ability to flex them is key. A 10 year old intermediate does not need a race boot, which is a common mistake by parents along with trying to get a couple of seasons out of a boot
2) One pair of a soft Multi-event ski ( used is fine if in decent shape) is enough for this age/ability. It must be tuned regularly -- sharp edges are more important than wax right now.
3) Very limited gate time with a focus on skiing the whole mountain and skill development -- bumps, trees, jumps, powder, etc. I have had kids that were pretty fast racers, but were actually not very skilled skiers -- have trouble in powder, bumps, crud etc. With shaped skis on groomed terrain, kids can learn to roll up a ski on edge, pressure it and let it take them down a race course without true underlying skills. I have had so many parents ( and kids) ask " Are they training today?". I say " Of course, we TRAIN everyday". They are talking about gate training and I am saying that free skiing is training. You really can't improve your technique in gates and that has to come from free skiing. Parents have a hard time understanding that.
4) Video -- although I try to get kids this age interested in World Cup videos, generally these do not keep their attention for very long. But they do need to see themselves ski. And in slow motion and close up. I use Coaches Eye App and it is wonderful tool for this.
5) Ski all day -- our training ends at 2:30 to 3pm. I can understand stopping at that hour on a Sunday when most have a drive home ahead of them. But kids should be skiing until last chair whenever possible. When we go to races, most of the kids barely ski. Inspection, warm-up run, race run --- that is not enough. It is all about mileage!
6) Have fun !!!!

 

[ScottB]

I coach for a youth ski team at a small hill in Mass. We have about 200 kids in the program, U8-U18. We have a saying:,"good skiers make good racers, great skiers make great racers." We spend 50% of the time on drills and the great skier part and 50% in gates on the great racer part. The younger kids use brushes only, and we have two levels of gated courses. Its a progression for every kid, each improves at their own pace. I personally tell a lot of the kids to get their edges sharpened. The better they get, the more important the equipment becomes.

Specific to the OP's 10 year old, they would be in the U12 group, which should be getting good at carved turns, so equipment is becoming important and needs good fitting boots and no "twin tips". At this age, some carve (ones that have been U8 or U10) and the rest are working on carved turns and good edge awareness. I think seeing improvement is what motivates most of them. We tell them that even if you don't see the podium all season, in a year of two it might be your turn if you keep at it. It is like climbing a tree to get up to a tree house, there is plenty of room in the tree house for everyone, you just need to get the skills down to make it up to the house. Once your there, everyone has a chance of winning. And honestly, a lot don't really care about winning, its about enjoying themselves. My son went through the program, started a little late, and he is a great skier without an inner competitive drive. I am very happy and we enjoying skiing together, which was the real goal.