Assessment of strength and flexibility and balance control

[karlo]

Just a few minutes ago, I posted the following and thought I would also try to seek the advice of those who follow this Section.

In the thread found here, in the Ski School section,

https://www.pugski.com/threads/angulated-and-countered-fore-aft-balance-and-strength.8915/

I asked, in response to a post by Razie,

"does anyone know of a trainer or physical therapist or facility who/that can assess me from a skiing context? Put me through the paces and measure left vs right, then advise what needs to be done, even confer with my PT? Currently, I am discovering things slowly. I would really like to short circuit this and get to everything quickly."

Any suggestions at that thread, or here would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[kimmyt]

My thought is that you want to find a personal trainer that has an NASM Corrective Exercise certification, and perhaps a Performance Enhancement certification. Trainers may also list the sports that they can focus on. A google search with terms like 'corrective exercise specialist + skiing + [state/city area]' might give you some results.

 

[Corgski]

It is probably way too premature to be focus on skiing specific exercises. To start, I'd recommend reading some Rippetoe (apologies for language in advance). Anyone heavy into pop culture exercise may find his views contrarian, however many of his arguments have solid scientific backing. Anyway, usually a fun read even when one disagrees with him. I think his comments on physical therapists are over the top, I think the problem is more that people are trying to apply physical therapy approaches beyond the point at which they are useful.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/rippetoe-goes-off
https://physiotherapy.ca/blog/rep-29-mark-rippetoe-asks-are-physical-therapists-really-frauds
https://www.t-nation.com/training/rippetoe-throws-down
https://startingstrength.com/article/strength-training-crossfit-and-functional-training

In general be careful of anything coming from high end training which tends to be oriented towards eking out small gains from people who are approaching their genetic limits. By the time this stuff hits the masses, it often bears little resemblance to the original (plyometrics). My planned summer project involves more serious sport science reading so hope to get into some of this a bit more.

 

[martyg]

Anne Healzer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-healzer-8b7841b9/

Maybe book a day of ski instruction with her and a PT session. Fly to Seattle, work with Anne, ski with her at Stevens, ski Baker, Crystal, etc.

It will likely result in profound changes to your efficiencies.

Anne is also referenced here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/path-improvement-marty-grabijas/

Anne will be one of your ultimate sources for The Truth.

 

[Seldomski]

If you can find a crossfit certified personal trainer and work on an exercise progression to do pistols (one legged squat), you should be good to go. My guess is if you can do a pistol on both sides, you will have the balance/strength on both sides to ski well. Pistols will (mercilessly) tell you if one side is weaker than the other.

I don't think you need a ski specific trainer. Note I am not a trainer or health professional myself, so take my advice with that in mind...

 

[BGreen]

I can’t help you in NJ, but I have two excellent Physios that I work with in Denver. First is Nick McKim of Full Potential Personal Training, second is Nate Lily of Physio Pro.

 

[martyg]

Karlo - In response to Seldom's advice.... I'd encourage you to seek out a PT / trainer who is very familiar with the mechanics of any domain that you are participating in. I'm not talking about the person who skies 15 times per year and is a trainer - because from a technical standpoint they may not understand how to ski or the forces involved.

I've been fortunate to go to the OTC on several occasions for a few sports and work with national team coaches and their physio people. My wife is also a full-time trainer. What I see happening is that a trainer's ability to construct a program is only as good as their ability to absorb technically sound movement patterns. I've seen it across both skiing and paddling - sports that I am heavily credentialed in. I have seen really, really incorrect information coming out of professional publications that my wife subscribes to - because once again, we have that trainer who skis or paddles 15 times per year, thinks that they have it dialed, they write and article and other trainers glomb onto it, further spreading poor info.

Two pieces of more targeted advice:

- It may not be about strength. It may be about flexibility. If you go into a gym a trainer is not going to be familiar enough with movement patterns to address that. In my case my limiter is three ruptured discs that limits ROM. I've been working hard on targeted stretching, as prescribed by Anne, and everything about skiing and life in general is better.

- You will want a Functional Movement System Analysis. It is a series of 11 movements that a PT will administer. It will tell you and the PT where you need to focus. In my case, I had strength in spades - but lacked the necessary flexibility. Only a PT who really understands the technical aspects of skiing will be able to diagnose.

If you are series enough about this to dig into it spend the money and go to the best people possible. IME you can get good advice on-line when it comes to professional recommendations for a source of knowledge. However training, nutrition (without blood draws) or something as nuanced as skiing.... You are putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Anne works remotely as well as in her office. If travel is an issue I'd encourage you to call her and see how she can interact with your PT. It may be that your PT executes the FMS analysis, takes a bit of video, and shares results with Anne. Anne then designs the tool kit for your use. Check back in as necessary via Skype.

Enjoy and feel free to contact me with questions at [email protected].

 

[Corgski]

The correct advice depends a lot on context. I learn technique fairly easily, I am reasonably flexible but I have to work hard on basic strength. Sporting discussion tends to be oriented towards the naturally strong person struggling with technique and flexibility. If you are squatting 50lbs, I would suggest that sport specific exercise or rehab is irrelevant. I do not know what the level is at which one should become sport specific, for me I am not going to tailor my routine to skiing until I can squat my body weight, or if injuries prevent squatting that weight, a different but equivalent standard. @martyg could probably give a better baseline.

Only reason for pushing this is that basic strength requirements are often ignored in discussions. People who are not at the required strength level underestimate this. Take the recent articles discussing US Ski Team exercises, here is one:
https://www.outsideonline.com/1919901/us-ski-teams-secret-speed-weapon
How many people take these exercises seriously while totally ignoring the the part where it says,"Sure, they could squat hundreds of pounds..."

 

[karlo]

Anne works remotely as well as in her office. If travel is an issue I'd encourage you to call her and see how she can interact with your PT.

I will reach out to her. Thank you.

exercise progression to do pistols (one legged squat),

Thanks. She has me doing this. From strength point of view, no problem. From point of view of not dropping the opposite pelvis, when squatting with my left leg, working on it.

for me I am not going to tailor my routine to skiing until I can squat my body weight, or if injuries prevent squatting that weight, a different but equivalent standard

Interesting point. Just yesterday, my PT had me do a new exercise. Lying down, both legs pointed to ceiling, pull down a resistance band with one leg or the other. Hamstrings? The left side was so, so difficult! What's the point of something ski specific at this time if I doubt have the basic strength?

 

[Corgski]

Some random additional thoughts.

Isn't a pistol squat at least the strength equivalent of squatting weights equal to your body weight? Pistol squat is quite an achievement but probably should fall under functional training rather than strength training. Some points to remember about functional training. Not good for significant strength gains as unstable exercises require one to reduce weight. This may have a benefit if you get transferability to your desired activity, I would think that pistol squats would benefit skiing. Transferability is always the big question, it is often much less than one would think. Also more potential for injuries (pistol squats look hard on the knees, could be wrong).

Squatting your body weight in additional weights is a low standard if you have no joint/tendon/back issues. For a lot of us it is more a joint limitation than a strength limitation. A healthy skier should have no excuse for not being able to do this. Even an ordinary squat should be professionally trained, doing it right to avoid injuries is more difficult than one would think.

 

[Brian Finch]

If you’re up for the trip to Vermont, I can package you an on hill + clinic assessment.

 

[karlo]

pistol squat

@AmyPJ, you might be interested in this.

So, I looked up what that is and, no way. I ask not strong enough, on either leg. However, I found this video,


I do not have a TRX with which to do the last task, but I tried the other three.

One legged rise from box. I did not have much asymmetry. Both legs could do them well. Yes, maybe the left injured side was a bit less strong. The main thing though was that I felt soon something different. The right side was smooth. The left side, it felt like small strands of muscles were being pulled. Hard to describe. After some reps, that disappeared.

The Bulgarian squat. No significant difference, left/injured and right.

Ball squat. I can do both sides well. Interestingly, with my left/injured side, mty knee collapsed inward. To avoid that, I had to make a very conscious effort. Kinda like as if autonomous breathing want working and I had to think to make myself breath. Not that I ever had that experience; just imagining it.

 

[AmyPJ]

One limitation I have, in addition to a torn LCL, is arthritis in both knees. That being said, I do neglect the strength training during ski season. Part of my problem is I have zero patience for it.

 

[Corgski]

@AmyPJ, you might be interested in this.

So, I looked up what that is and, no way. I ask not strong enough, on either leg. However, I found this video,


I do not have a TRX with which to do the last task, but I tried the other three.

One legged rise from box. I did not have much asymmetry. Both legs could do them well. Yes, maybe the left injured side was a bit less strong. The main thing though was that I felt soon something different. The right side was smooth. The left side, it felt like small strands of muscles were being pulled. Hard to describe. After some reps, that disappeared.

The Bulgarian squat. No significant difference, left/injured and right.

Ball squat. I can do both sides well. Interestingly, with my left/injured side, mty knee collapsed inward. To avoid that, I had to make a very conscious effort. Kinda like as if autonomous breathing want working and I had to think to make myself breath. Not that I ever had that experience; just imagining it.

Yikes, my post was read as endorsing pistol squats. I thought you indicated in your response to @Seldomski that you were doing them and I did not want to rule out that it may be useful for someone in certain contexts. For most people it is a path to nowhere, nothing has held me back more than doing dumb stuff like that (I have a track record of injuries).

Essentially with these types of exercises you are increasing potential for injury and reducing potential for strength gains. People sometimes do them to in an attempt to gain 'functional strength'. In general the skills from these types of exercises do not transfer well to the desired activity. You may get some transferability but you will max out the benefit of those types of exercises very quickly.

You may not need to do one arm/one leg exercises to fix asymmetry. Performing the conventional exercises with good form can often fix this for you. The standard squat, deadlift and chest press exercises are well proven. Doing them correctly and not increasing loads too quickly can avoid injury and take you a long way. If you have injures which actually prevent you from doing them I can understand trying to find suitable alternatives.

I'd strongly advise taking Rippetoe seriously (links in one of above posts) . In some ways he is the Harald Harb of the fitness industry but he is widely respected and his arguments have more scientific backing than most of the other stuff out there. Once again, I think that his criticism of PTs is unreasonable, PTs are medical professionals and not personal trainers. I also do not want to rule out that other stuff may be useful in the right context.

Watch out where you get your information. To open a CrossFit gym you need a level 1 CrossFit certification which takes 2 days, no other background needed. Compare this to what you have done to pursue your PSIA Level 2 certification. A few days of reading will put you ahead of a lot of "professionals" out there.

 

[Seldomski]

To clarify, my suggestion was to do a progression toward pistol squats to see if asymmetry exists. A good trainer could observe and help diagnose any issues you have. I wouldn't recommend doing them in volume (i.e. not more than 50 per side in a workout). I would recommend them (or a modification thereof) as a test to highlight problems by isolating each side of the body.

And yes, with all squats, and exercise in general, proper form is essential to avoid injury.

Foam rolling the problem area(s) and adjacent muscle groups can also do a lot of good. Sometimes pain, dysfunction, or inflexibility in one area is actually caused by unreleased tension in adjacent muscle groups/tendons/etc.

 

[Rod9301]

Yikes, my post was read as endorsing pistol squats. I thought you indicated in your response to @Seldomski that you were doing them and I did not want to rule out that it may be useful for someone in certain contexts. For most people it is a path to nowhere, nothing has held me back more than doing dumb stuff like that (I have a track record of injuries).

Essentially with these types of exercises you are increasing potential for injury and reducing potential for strength gains. People sometimes do them to in an attempt to gain 'functional strength'. In general the skills from these types of exercises do not transfer well to the desired activity. You may get some transferability but you will max out the benefit of those types of exercises very quickly.

You may not need to do one arm/one leg exercises to fix asymmetry. Performing the conventional exercises with good form can often fix this for you. The standard squat, deadlift and chest press exercises are well proven. Doing them correctly and not increasing loads too quickly can avoid injury and take you a long way. If you have injures which actually prevent you from doing them I can understand trying to find suitable alternatives.

I'd strongly advise taking Rippetoe seriously (links in one of above posts) . In some ways he is the Harald Harb of the fitness industry but he is widely respected and his arguments have more scientific backing than most of the other stuff out there. Once again, I think that his criticism of PTs is unreasonable, PTs are medical professionals and not personal trainers. I also do not want to rule out that other stuff may be useful in the right context.

Watch out where you get your information. To open a CrossFit gym you need a level 1 CrossFit certification which takes 2 days, no other background needed. Compare this to what you have done to pursue your PSIA Level 2 certification. A few days of reading will put you ahead of a lot of "professionals" out there.

Absolutely true.

I also believe that personal trainers always look for new moments, things to do, to justify their existence. Otherwise, you would never go back to then, once you learn a few basic things.

Speaking of injuries though, I believe that most people would be better off to use a leg press instead of squats, as squats are dangerous if done improperly, and they are not ready to learn.

Squats are also hard to do if you have knee problems.

 

[karlo]

. Compare this to what you have done to pursue your PSIA Level 2 certification.

Too little, as I have discovered
More on that in another thread, after I get a copy of a hysterical video of myself doing wedge turns. It is so funny!

Anyway, I am definitely going to hook up with a fitness/rehab professional that understands skiing.

 

[Corgski]

@Seldomski, sorry, I did not intend to give you a hard time here, I have no problem if someone finds them useful. However anyone who wants to try them should be at least squatting their body weight in a normal squat. Secondly even after adjusting for loading, the stress on the knee seems to be higher than a normal squat. Not for anyone who does not have the required strength background or has joint concerns. My point is that there is a lot of stuff out there that has little value or relevance to someone who has not reached a level of strength. Same reason why I dismiss the US Ski Team exercises, they may be the perfect exercises for them but they have already spent years building up using standard strength exercises.

@Rod9301, I am very open to squat alternatives, my knees aren't bad but they not great either. Something I need to explore further for myself.