Aspen/KSL conglomerate to announce name soon, MCP news

[Muleski]

[QUOTE="Muleski, post: 180407, member: 207"Also remember, Aspen SkiCo is also NOT part of it.

Any reason why all the articles that came out in spring called Aspen and KSL a "merger" if they are not part of the deal?[/QUOTE]

Sure, the authors didn't have the facts and jumped the gun.

I presume that since KSL and Henry Crown's family Investment firm partnered on the deal, and since HCC owns Aspen SkiCo, that somebody quickly jumped to KSL/Aspen.

Intrawest, not known for great detail, may have leaked the deal and assumed that HCC meant Aspen, aka Aspen SkiCo.

And it took some time to unwind that and clarify. It does not mean that SkiCo, under the direction of their owners might not partner in a bunch of ways, or that they eventually merge SkiCo with some other holdings.

But no indication, and strong statements to the contrary.

The authors the articles, particular the CO based ones are not perfect. Mistakes happen. Retractions are made.

It sure as hell was not a "merger," regardless of the players. HCC is an investment partner with KSL's investors.

I thought we'd cover this quite a bit.....guess not.

 

[oswaldr2]

I thought we'd cover this quite a bit.....guess not.

It's possible, I may have just missed it.

 

[Muleski]

It's possible, I may have just missed it.

No big deal....it's seriously early in the process for a lot of things, IMO.
Should be interesting next near or two in particular.

 

[oswaldr2]

I'm interested to see how it shakes out. As a somebody new to the front range and a long time MCP, seeing where Winter Park ends up as far as passes are concerned and what becomes of the MCP are my biggest concerns.

 

[Chris Walker]

Any reason why all the articles that came out in spring called Aspen and KSL a "merger" if they are not part of the deal?

Well, I think it's a pretty complicated deal. A merger is not really correct, but it's kind of easier I suppose to write "Aspen bought Winter Park and Steamboat" than "The Crown family, who happen to own the Aspen Skiing company, entered into a joint partnership with Denver real estate investment firm KSL Capital Partners to purchase Intrawest, the holding company that owns, among other resorts, Steamboat and Snowshoe, and holds certain real estate holdings in, and holds the lease to operate, Winter Park in Colorado (which is owned by the City and County of Denver), and subsume the Intrawest holdings into a newly formed entity separate from the Aspen Skiing company."

Sometimes brevity wins out over precision.

 

[Muleski]

Correct, @ChrisWalker. ^^^^^^. And knowing a couple of people in the communication business, they were not so pleased with the "brevity over precision."

HCC and Aspen SkiCo are not the same. One does own the other. SkiCo is walled off, and not included. But they could do all sort of joint business initiatives.....even passes.

Much more to follow, IMO. Not immediate.

 

[Blue Streak]

Winter Park has always been a cheap ticket and always will be, so what are you worrying about? There is no amount of marketing that will make it equivalent to Deer Valley.
They are going to have a challenge incorporating the disparate elements within their holdings.
Aspen, Deer Valley, and Winter Park on one pass? Sure.
But like the Epic Pass has a Summit Value pass, there will be a dirt cheap alternative for those that don’t want to go to the premier resorts, like Aspen or Deer Valley.
Don’t worry, you will always be able to ski The Jane for cheap - at least relatively so.
Vail Resorts is the blueprint for success, for better or worse - and I am not going to argue the fact that there are better ways to serve the skiing public.
But is there a better way to deliver profit to the shareholder then the formula Vail Resorts has perfected?
Not so far.

 

[Blue Streak]

Well, I think it's a pretty complicated deal. A merger is not really correct, but it's kind of easier I suppose to write "Aspen bought Winter Park and Steamboat" than "The Crown family, who happen to own the Aspen Skiing company, entered into a joint partnership with Denver real estate investment firm KSL Capital Partners to purchase Intrawest, the holding company that owns, among other resorts, Steamboat and Snowshoe, and holds certain real estate holdings in, and holds the lease to operate, Winter Park in Colorado (which is owned by the City and County of Denver), and subsume the Intrawest holdings into a newly formed entity separate from the Aspen Skiing company."

Sometimes brevity wins out over precision.

Right on!

 

[Muleski]

Vail Resorts is the blueprint for success, for better or worse - and I am not going to argue the fact that there are better ways to serve the skiing public.
But is there a better way to deliver profit to the shareholder then the formula Vail Resorts has perfected?
Not so far.

Keep in mind, KSL/HCC is not a publicly traded deal. No stockholders, no quarterly earnings releases, no EPS, no public "metrics".
It's entirely different. Until, and unless they take it public down the road. Always a potential for the eventual liquidity event.

Has VR {MTN} killed it, and done an incredible job of selling their business to The Street? Without question. Amazing.

 

[RuleMiHa]

And "passes", "ticket prices", and such is just one factor. It might turn out to be a minor factor. For example, I seriously doubt if what they do with CMH will be anything other than best in class, and that almost none of their CMH customers moving forward will be making choices to book with them based on price.

Just think of the simple thought that most people only think that low cost is best with actual commodities: Milk, etc. Otherwise low cost does not equate to "the best." Does it play into best value? I think so. So are they going to be selling BEST or best value? I would bet on BOTH.


It's NOT KSL/HCC and perhaps SkiCo versus the Epic pass, IMO. Not about who can sell the most passes.

I have a feeling ASC will not take the chance of cheapening their brand by releasing a low priced comprehensive pass product. Even though this consolidation on the surface looks similar to what Vail has done there are some distinct differences in how the companies operate that will likely play out in how they develop their products.

I think there are going to be at least two national pass products that will take advantage of what the brand has been historically. I think we're going to see a premium luxury pass product, that includes at least Aspen and Deer Valley, that will be priced well above the Epic pass (come ski with us, get away from the Vail riff-raff). In addition I think there might be a cheaper Epic-ish priced product that would exclude the top tier resorts.

I don't think they would squander the years of luxury branding to chase volume, that just does not seem to be how they've operated in the past. If it is only one pass, I think it's going to be pricey and aimed at the top tier skiers.

 

[New2]

In case I'm not clear, the chances, I hear, of one common pass, at one set of price points for all of the KSL/HCC properties is pretty darn slim. Maybe ZERO, in fact. They have no need to do it. They are NOT playing follow VR, or anybody else with this.

Setting aside the question of Aspen's participation (and it sounds like the valuation question is legitimate), I think it's reasonable to think that the Deer Valley pass becomes an all-property pass. KSL/NewEntity will be able to look at the data to see how many people are buying a season pass to both Deer Valley and another of their properties... my guess is that it's close to zero. So if they're not going to lose much or any pass sales money by bundling other properties in with DV, it becomes a question of whether they benefit more from occasional day ticket sales to DV passholders, or from helping funnel those passholders into picking another KSL/NewEntity property. I suspect the latter. So giving DV passholders unlimited skiing at Squalpine, Mammoth, Big Bear, Steamboat, Winter Park, Tremblant, Stratton, etc. seems like a real possibility.

And then the question that arises is whether they can do anything by switching up the branding to convince more people to buy up to the Deer Valley pass. And again, this seems like a likely yes... get some extra cash out of folks who would otherwise have bought a Mammoth or Steamboat or Tremblant or Stratton pass. That's not to say that they'd remove more localized lower-priced options with limitations, but why not offer a premium all-resort pass?

So while I agree that they're not really chasing Vail (and I would expect their all-resort pass to be priced significantly higher than the full Epic Pass), it seems like they end up in a somewhat similar spot with various more-restricted pass options funneling up to a premium product that could potentially produce significantly more short- and long-term revenue than the current Deer Valley pass (if they can get well-heeled Californians to buy it, then vacation in Steamboat or DV instead of competitors, some small percentage of those vacationers are likely to eventually decide to buy real estate at Steamboat or DV).

And I think you could swap in "Aspen" instead of "Deer Valley" throughout this post and it would hold just as true... but they'd need to find a way of weighting the revenue-sharing that's ok with the Crowns as well as KSL.

 

[Lorenzzo]

DENVER, Colo. & PARK CITY, Utah--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The newly formed entity controlled by affiliates of KSL Capital Partners, LLC and Henry Crown and Company that in July joined Intrawest Resorts Holdings, Inc., Mammoth Resorts, and Squaw Valley Ski Holdings today announced, with Deer Valley Resort, that they have entered into a definitive agreement for the newly formed entity to acquire Deer Valley Resort. Financial terms of the transaction were not disclosed. The transaction is subject to certain closing conditions and is anticipated to close prior to the upcoming 2017/18 ski season.

“We could not be more pleased that Deer Valley Resort will be part of our new company, and we look forward to working with the staff and Park City community to carry on the traditions that make it so special”

-----------------

Now that we're mostly through December I thought I'd give the new ownership a report card based on my experience there yesterday and today and see how they're doing relative to their statement above.

Conditions:....... B

Use of Snowmaking to Maximize: ......... C-/D+
Open Terrain

Lift Operations: * ......... F

Food:............ B

Facilities: .............. A

Crowds/Skier Density: **........... F

Fulfilling Stated Commitment to Existing Customers per:
Press Release:***.......... FFF

Overall Experience:.......... F

I don't think I'm being that tough a grader here. My grades and comments attempt to incorporate the feelings of other DV locals and I'm adjusting for the realities of holidays and lack of natural snowfall this year.

** In years past daily tickets were capped at 7,500 at the busiest times with most terrain open and significantly lower at other times. Yesterday and today the cap was 9,000 with most terrain not open and with a number of lifts not in operation. Lines were way past the corrals in fact there were complete bottlenecks in places as DV isn't by any stretch designed for those kinds of lines.

* With the above cap already creating havoc, a major lift (Sterling), critical given the current scenario, failed today and was shut down for most of the morning. Other lifts also had issues. Exactly how long the delays were I don't know because I left after 5 runs although sat in the lodge for a while.

*** As far as fulfilling their commitment....the above press release sets out a standard on which we season pass holders should have been able to rely. It's why some of us pay 3 times the cost of an Epic Local Pass. Initial indications are that the new entity is not only failing to honor their stated commitment but mislead their customers into purchasing passes.

So far I give the new KSL ownership entity a complete fail.

 

[Chris Walker]

They also seem to be failing in their stated commitment to announce the name of their new company "soon." As far as I can tell, it's still being called "the newly-formed Aspen/KSL conglomerate." Maybe they should just keep that name. It's kind of snappy.

 

[Lorenzzo]

They also seem to be failing in their stated commitment to announce the name of their new company "soon." As far as I can tell, it's still being called "the newly-formed Aspen/KSL conglomerate." Maybe they should just keep that name. It's kind of snappy.

If they're having a difficult time coming up with a name I have some suggestions.

 

[Muleski]

This ^^^^^ doesn't sound so good.

Question, I get the bad intersection of not enough open terrain, and lean snow, going from 7500 to 9000 skiers, and throwing in the thread strike of lifts being down or not spinning. Sounds like an ugly trifecta.

I'm curious about just how much was caused by other nature. It's been an ugly scenario around the country. And DV might be oe place where people have not bailed, on the the assumption that they would handle it well as they always have. More people, less acreage, lifts down. Not a good recipe.

Here in the East, we're blasting snow, and have a lot of open terrain. And.....record cold streaks. Like brutal cold that is keeping people off the hills, and in places that depend on heavy vacation week day trippers, many no-shows. The entire region is going to get hammered in terms of the ski areas. People don't like skiing in -15F weather, before thinking of the wind {which is thankfully not so bad today}.

Yes, KSL/HCC lack of name is really perplexing. Makes zero sense to me. That would have been an easy one to get done, I'd think.

Good luck. Has to get better. I hope!

 

[Lorenzzo]

I have inside on their approach to snowmaking this year. So mother nature is only partly to explain.

Their opportunity to properly deal with the convergence of holidays, snow, limited terrain and balky and limited lifts was to maintain or reduce daily sales as opposed to increasing them by 20%. If it walks and quacks like a duck....

 

[Jilly]

Well all I know is that they are spending money here at Tremblant. I heard from the Infoguides that snow making would stop at noon today. It didn't and maybe it shouldn't. We had a natural fridge right now. We are at 97% open.

I do have agree that people/vacationers are not skiing. Or here they are skiing the Gondola only. Long lines there, but no where else. The cafeterias and restaurants are making money as people are not out on the slopes.

Deer Valley is an interesting addition to the mix.

 

[HardDaysNight]

To be honest I’ve always suspected that the DV “cap” was set based on how many tickets they happened to be able to sell that day. But then I’m a suspicious guy. Certainly I’ve experienced crowding there at least as bad as anywhere else.

“Here a shit show, there a shit show, everywhere a shit show. Ee, aye, ee aye oh!”

 

[Lorenzzo]

To be honest I’ve always suspected that the DV “cap” was set based on how many tickets they happened to be able to sell that day. But then I’m a suspicious guy. Certainly I’ve experienced crowding there at least as bad as anywhere else.

“Here a shit show, there a shit show, everywhere a shit show. Ee, aye, ee aye oh!”

I surely understand your suspicion but as a former employee, Deer Valley was credible in the past in fact I was impressed by how forthcoming and committed they were. The caps were real and during times when they'd temporarily increase them they'd be open about what they were doing.

I've had season passes multiple years as well at DV, PCMR/Epic, Snowbird and Alta and as I said worked at DV. I have an Epicpass this year for when out of towners come in. Crowding there at least as bad as anywhere else is complete fallacy. It's simply untrue. You can always find the wrong place at the wrong time but there was absolutely no comparison between DV and PCMR or any of those other places.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I’m pleased I’m wrong in doubting them then. Although I’ve never invested in a DV season pass I have, over more than 30 years living in Park City, skied there quite a bit. Generally when visiting friends have wanted to go, and that’s often been during peak periods so perhaps I have a lop-sided impression. Sorry new management is now showing the cloven hoof!