Aftermarket liner/new boots for petite skier, short cuff, narrow ankle?

[mike_m]

Hiromi needs either a new liner or new boots. Her: 100 lbs, 5' tall, instructor, needs boots that fit precisely but can be skied all day, 5 days a week.

Current boots: Lange RS 90 Short Cuff, size 23. Good length for her, good cuff height, good fit around forefoot, decent fit for her narrow heel. Problems: Too much room around the ankle and the flex is a bit stiff (she has to force forward movement). We've softened them, but more may need to be done.

Recommendations so far from reputable folks:

New Liners (keep the boots):

Zipfit Gara or World Cup? (less desirable, higher cuff height in World Cup?); possibly Grand Prix if the extra cork in that model will fill in the ankle area, still give a precise fit in a low-volume boot, and the cuff is available in a lower height? What say you?

Boot Doc

Intuition Pro Tongue (lots of dispute about whether it will stiffen the boot too much for her)

New Boots:

Lane RP/ZJ or Rossi SI ZJ plug: I'm thinking these will fit well after a lot of work but will be way to heavy and a pain to get off when cold.

A junior race boot? How is the fit on some like the Head Raptor 80 or 90 RS for someone with her foot characteristics? How is the Head B5 RD junior boot different from the Raptor?

Any others that could do the trick? Anyone with some knowledgable guidance?

Thanks!
Mike

 

[Philpug]

I think you are on the right track with the Lange/Rossi options. Actually getting them on/off with the lace up liners is remarkablly easy, I actually find the lace ups to be easier than a traditional liner. Talke also a look at the Tecnica Inferno R9/3 110 which can be softened quite a bit.

 

[RuleMiHa]

Hiromi needs either a new liner or new boots. Her: 100 lbs, 5' tall, instructor, needs boots that fit precisely but can be skied all day, 5 days a week.

Current boots: Lange RS 90 Short Cuff, size 23. Good length for her, good cuff height, good fit around forefoot, decent fit for her narrow heel. Problems: Too much room around the ankle and the flex is a bit stiff (she has to force forward movement). We've softened them, but more may need to be done.

Recommendations so far from reputable folks:

New Liners (keep the boots):

Zipfit Gara or World Cup? (less desirable, higher cuff height in World Cup?); possibly Grand Prix if the extra cork in that model will fill in the ankle area, still give a precise fit in a low-volume boot, and the cuff is available in a lower height? What say you?

Boot Doc

Intuition Pro Tongue (lots of dispute about whether it will stiffen the boot too much for her)

New Boots:

Lane RP/ZJ or Rossi SI ZJ plug: I'm thinking these will fit well after a lot of work but will be way to heavy and a pain to get off when cold.

A junior race boot? How is the fit on some like the Head Raptor 80 or 90 RS for someone with her foot characteristics? How is the Head B5 RD junior boot different from the Raptor?

Any others that could do the trick? Anyone with some knowledgable guidance?

Thanks!
Mike

I have the Intuition Pro Tongues in the Head Raptor 110W, which I switched to because the Lange 110RX W LV were too roomy in the ankle (5'4" 150#). Out of the box the Head's fit my ankles much better but I still ended up on the last hinge to get a secure ankle fit by day 6 or 7. The Head's have a cuff with a greater forward lean so that might affect whether she would need to force forward movement (the leverage changes).

The Intuition's barely fit in the Head boot at first (I have a little less than a performance fit) and required a second bake before the boot edges were able to overlap over my forefoot (which is a normal size). It took 3 bakes to get that liner and my foot happily co-existing in that boot. It's awesome, and the first time I have had a secure ankle in a boot, ever. As weird as it sounds that might be perfect for her since the liner volume can be baked down she might actually be able to get a good fit.

I don't know about putting the Pro Tongue's in her existing Lange boot if she already struggles with getting forward, because the Pro Tongue will stiffen the boot. The upright cuff on the Lange didn't work for me for that exact reason but I don't have any trouble with the technically stiffer Head's & Pro Tongues because I have better leverage with greater cuff lean. The more upright cuff of the Lange feels better, but I definitely ski better in the Head. Vector's are a beautiful thing, maybe I should have paid more attention in physics

P.S. Even though my boots aren't the one's you are asking about, all the Lange's referenced have the same forward lean as do the Head's so while the boots have a few different characteristics the comparisons should hold.

 

[ScotsSkier]

is she using a booster strap? in mat experience always makes the flex work better

 

[tinymoose]

I sound similar to her. Short and lightweight with trouble flexing boots, plus low volume feet (my stats: I'm 5'1" and not quite 100 lbs). I'm doing OK right now in the Dalbello Chakra, but in order to get the cuff low enough for me to be able to flex the boot (I wear a 23.5, but boots come too high on my shin at that size) we downsized me to a 22.5 with some grinding and punching. It's a very tight fit even now ("performance" lol), but it's the first time I've really been able to flex a boot OK. Prior to these, I was in some Fischer Jr. race boots (80 flex) with a Zipfit liner (which I need to sell or throw out at some point... it's a 23 and was only used 1 or 1.5 seasons).

ETA: FWIW, when I was trying on junior race boots, I loved how the Head Raptor 80 jr. boots fit... very snug. But they're not soft. Pretty stiff overall.

 

[mike_m]

Thanks, everyone.

Scotsskier: Yes, she uses a Booster strap. Flex still a bit much for her despite softening, but the cuff is nice and snug.

Any other feedback on the women's junior race boots mentioned? Anybody with experience with the Atomic Redster Clubsport? Maybe around a 90 flex? (Can anyone compare them to the Head Raptor, or B5 RD, or any other junior boots with her needs in mind?) Any opinions on the Technica Mach 1 85 W LV for someone with her needs?

 

[Philpug]

Thanks, everyone.

Scotsskier: Yes, she uses a Booster strap. Flex still a bit much for her despite softening, but the cuff is nice and snug.

Any other feedback on the women's junior race boots mentioned? Anybody with experience with the Atomic Redster Clubsport? Maybe around a 90 flex? (Can anyone compare them to the Head Raptor, or B5 RD, or any other junior boots with her needs in mind?) Any opinions on the Technica Mach 1 85 W LV for someone with her needs?

They are very good options, the Heads and Atomic are going to be narrower than the Tecnica. With the Tecnica, step up to the 95LV, the CAS liner is significantly better. You have a bunch of viable options, you can only do so much here or on the web, it is going to coem down to what fits HER foot.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Thanks, everyone.

Scotsskier: Yes, she uses a Booster strap. Flex still a bit much for her despite softening, but the cuff is nice and snug.

Any other feedback on the women's junior race boots mentioned? Anybody with experience with the Atomic Redster Clubsport? Maybe around a 90 flex? (Can anyone compare them to the Head Raptor, or B5 RD, or any other junior boots with her needs in mind?) Any opinions on the Technica Mach 1 85 W LV for someone with her needs?

The redster is a bit of a polarizing boot. In my experience with it (in the WC version) , I just didn't like the WAY it flexed. I tried softening and all the usual fixes but always found it to be more of an On/Off flex rather than progressive. OK in slalom but didn't work in speed or GS for me. It was not IMHO nearly as good a boot as the previous gen RT TI which had a really good progressive flex. In fact if you ;look at this year's Atomic race boot, it now looks much more like the old boot (and several WC skiers remained on the old boot, painted!)

 

[otto]

Any others that could do the trick? Anyone with some knowledgable guidance?

Mike,

You are getting answers relative to the way you have posed the question. Are there ways to shore up the fit of a ski boot that does not hold the ankle/heel well? Yes there are, and the answers posted give you some stuff to chew on. Be aware that every answer involves throwing money at a problem that may or may not be resolved relative to the money that you spend. My concern is that you are attempting to spike the ball in the end zone without doing some basic blocking and tackling. A women that is 5 feet tall and weighs 100 lbs, would not typically measure into 23 shell. And that same women must not be a 23 if she is not contacting the inside of the boot well enough to push through a 90 flex boot. The last relative factor that leads to a smaller lower volume boot is the number of days that she is skiing per week. At 5 days a week, you are talking over 100 days per season. Three smoking guns that have me thinking that she is not in the correct size boot and the correct shape shell to contain her foot and flex when she pushes against the tongue. I would get her foot properly measured in length, width, and instep perimeter. Next step is to assess the mechanics of her ankle, arch, and forefoot. After you have sussed out what her foot does and what the foot measures, then proceed to "Go" with your $200 and attempt to buy the best boot, or the best boot/liner combo to solve her problem of fit and flex. The shape and materials of the boot shell determine the best long range fit of a boot. An add on accessory liner could be a viable solution, however even that fix works best when you are in the best choice shell shape. Get in to see a flesh and blood, real deal boot fitter.

Perhaps asking where you should go within your geographic area to find a boot fitter that knows how to look at Hiromi's feet and boots to give you advice that will solve her issues. Be aware that there are many areas where this level of knowledge and expertise is not readily available.

Good luck!!

 

[mike_m]

Thanks, again, all, but perhaps we're drifting off my original query. There is no problem with Hiromi's shell fit. It's 1.5 fingers and the Lange RS Short Cuff works in many ways. The primary problem is an ankle area that is too roomy and we'd prefer not using an ankle-pad band-aid. There are several excellent bootfitters in my area, but I would like to know as much as possible about possible options before going.

If there are professional bootfitters reading this, or, perhaps, coaches with experience with junior racer boots, the questions can be summed up as:

Would the Zipfit Gara, World Cup, or, possibly, Grand Prix liner be a viable option? Is the Gara a lower cuff than the others (desirable)? Would the extra cork in the Grand Prix make up for any other negatives in this liner for the purpose needed?

Comparison to the Boot Doc liner?

Impressions of the Intuition Pro Tongue (lots of dispute about whether it will stiffen the boot too much for her).

If none of these liners will do the trick, is there a junior race boot you know that has the characteristics desired? (low cuff, progressive flex, narrow heel, ankle, shin)?

Thanks again!
Mike

 

[otto]

Mike,

In general junior race boots in flexes 70 through 100, are the exact same shell as all of the adult models from that brand of the same flex. You already own a shell in a size and shape that does not hold her heel/ankle down. Purchasing any other 98mm pro last (which is what most or all of junior race boots on the market ), short cuff, in a 90 flex will net you the same result.

Before you toss good money chasing a fix, it would be prudent to get to the root cause of the loose feeling in the ankle. What could the root cause be? First of all a shell that is the incorrect size and volume to hold the heel down and back in the shell. Secondly if there is limited range of motion in the ankle joint, no matter how much padding, cork, or foam you stuff into the boot, that skier has the capacity to lever their heel off the boot board.

If you measure her foot on a mondopoint bannock and it measures a 23, she needs to be in a 22 shell. The second factor is to identify the instep perimeter measurement. Based on what you wrote in your first post, I am confident that measurement is below 23mm. The third factor is her range of dorsiflexion. When assessed and it comes up on the low side of normal you will need to make some adaptation of the ramp angle to help keep her heel bone glued to the boot board when she pushes against the front of the boot.

Now if she measures a mondopoint 24 and her instep perimeter measures 24mm or greater, and she has normal to high dorsiflexion, you should carry on with your quest to find a boot or a customisable liner like, foam injected, cork, or heat moldable to control her lower leg and ankle in the boot.

I am attempting to guide you to a realistic permanent solution to her problem. If you follow my suggestions it will change her skiing forever...

One of the biggest problems in boot fitting is that hero status is given to the fitter that can make the most space or reduce the most space in a boot when a skier comes in with problems. Why that's a problem is the real hero's of boot fitting are the ones that know how to measure, assess, and counsel the skier into the correct boot from the beginning. Find that person and it eliminates the need for massive amounts of padding and shimming to get a boot to properly fit and perform well. There are a few custom liner companies that would not like to see any boot fitters like that in business. IMHO

 

[MRT]

Aftermarket liner/new boots for petite skier, short cuff, narrow ankle? Your Title.

If her boot is too upright and she happens to have a slim calf, her lower leg may be too upright and be moving her center of mass too far rearward, this will make the boot seem too stiff. This affects her fore/aft balance position . Ideally you want her COM hovering just behind her met heads held in that position by the forward lean of the boot.

Tighten the ankle buckles (second from top) till it holds the heels down.

Does she have slim calves? Measure the circumference of her calves please.

Mike
Master Bootfitter/Cped

 

[mike_m]

Final decision: Head Raptor 90 with a Short Cuff. Much snugger over the instep than the Lange RS, much easier to flex the boot as a result, even though it is no softer in actual flex. The pressure point is simply further back. Thanks to all for the input!

Best!
Mike

 

[BGreen]

There’s a lot of really great info in this thread.