• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

A little disappointed with my first "premium" ski jacket.

jzmtl

Intermidiot
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
323
Location
Montreal
Ski jacket isn't suppose to be super warm, if one alone is warm enough for walking in 0F, how could you use it for skiing at 20f? You need mid-layers of various thickness to adjust total insulation you have according to the weather.
 

Blue Streak

I like snow.
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,266
Location
Edwards, Colorado
yeah that is why there is no sense in putting anyone in insulated anything.....

thanks for confirming how bad they are.
I don’t get it (or I do).
Helly makes great stuff, and VR has to be their most high profile snow sports customer.
Why do we sport their least advanced outerwear?
$
 
Thread Starter
TS
TonyPlush

TonyPlush

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Posts
492
Location
Minnesota
Ski jacket isn't suppose to be super warm, if one alone is warm enough for walking in 0F, how could you use it for skiing at 20f? You need mid-layers of various thickness to adjust total insulation you have according to the weather.
Touche, and good point.

You can look at it that way...if it was my jacket I'd probably prefer to look at it as "OK, it's insulated but it's just as versatile as a shell. It might be a trifle heavier than a shell but I'm more resistant to contact-cold like when resting on a cold chairlift".

To my mind HH jackets will always be associated with descending to Pinkham Notch -> I took my backpack off outside the hut and I immediately became a steaming fountain of visible vapour. It was breathable alright.
Another good point.

Why wouldn't you want to layer?
Cost, simplicity, and bulk.

Ski jackets are designed for exertion not for walking the dog. Take it for a run and then compare!
Haha! To be fair, I realize this thread is a little ridiculous, considering I haven't even taken it onto the mountain for a day yet! I'll have to update it after my first trip West next week.
 
Thread Starter
TS
TonyPlush

TonyPlush

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Posts
492
Location
Minnesota
@TonyPlush : I live in MN (and further North than you;-) and can tell you that for longer outings, including dog walking, a more breathable outer layer is a great benefit in very cold weather. As the outside temperature drops, the dew point for the humid air coming off your body can be inside your clothing, leading to moisture and then ice.
Sure, in very windy and cold weather it’s not as nice, but it’s much easier to add warmth or wind resistance thanto deal with a garment that’s to hot or not breathable enough. There is very little you can do about that. Since temperature varies day to day, and even hour by hour.

The other point is duration:
The first 20 minutes of any activity (including dog walking) you will be cold, as your body heats up.
The longer you plan on staying out, the worse of a problem moisture build up is.
30 minutes? No problem
2 hours? If the garment is low enough in breathability, and high enough in wind resistance and insulation, you’ll be ok
All day? At the end of the day, you will be damp. At the same time the sun goes down and it cools off. Now you are really uncomfortable.
Multi day? This is heading into danger (hypothermia) quickly.

Then, you seem to think that a more expensive jacket should be warmer. That is incorrect. It’s easy to make a warm jacket, just adds lots of insulation and use a wind proof face fabric.

The reason you pay a higher price is:
  • Features. Every feature adds cost. Vents, pockets,hood, different fabrics in different areas, articaulted sleeves, etc, etc.
  • marketing and R&D (research, testing, sponsored athletes)
  • Lighter for the same warmth (1000fp down vs synthetic)
  • Quality of materials and construction
  • Breathability or waterproofness. And even more so, both at the same time.
Very nice breakdown, and you bring up a great point. My old setup for 10-30 degree skiing in the Rockies was:

Baselayer: Under Armour Cold Gear
Midlayer: A cheap, $8 cotton waffle shirt from Walmart. (horrible, I know)
Outerlayer: Entry level Burton jacket with 60 grams of insulation.

And you're dead on about the time break downs. Chilly to start the day, comfortable throughout the day, but after a full day of 25-30,000 vertical feet, I was a swampy mess on the last run.

With everyone's input, I'm thinking I might be okay with the same base layer, the HH outerlayer, and replacing that cheap midlayer with something a little more high performance. Leaning towards Under Armour's Waffle shirt, which is 70% polyester, and hopefully a little more breathable and similar warmth.

Any other light midlayer suggestions? Or should I be looking to go heavier fleece since I've got a more breathable (and potentially draftier) jacket now?
 
Last edited:

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
27,298
Location
Reno
So I picked up the Helly Hansen Alpha 3.0 ski jacket to replace my old Burton snowboard jacket, and paid a pretty penny to do so. Needless to say, I was excited.

First test run, I took the dog for a walk in 0 degree F temps wearing a white tshirt, flannel button down, and the HH Alpha jacket. And... I was disappointingly cold.

I went back inside, threw on my cheap, 3-in-1 jacket picked up for $10 from a thrift shop, and found it to be noticeably warmer.

Comparing the two side by side, it almost felt like the massive breathability of the HH was letting some cold air sneak in; the arms felt breezy compared to the impenetrable, canvas like material on the cheap 3-in-1. Like a much less severe difference between a winter coat and a sweatshirt.

Today I did another test in 10 degree F temps. I compared the Burton with 60 grams of base-level synethic insulation against the 80 grams of primaloft in the HH, and overall my body temp felt similar. But again, the HH material felt more exposed somehow.

So, long story short - obviously the highly breathable fabrics help you from turning into a swamp during exertion, but are they actually a little cooler overall than the cheaper options? Or is it the sort of thing where you have to get moving and exercising before the heat kicks in?

I know Under Armour cold gear is like this - wear it without moving and you hardly notice it's there, but work up a sweat and it will trap that heat like your life depends on it. Are highly breathable, premium quality jackets similar? Or is my expensive HH Alpha just a dud?
I'm fairly tech savvy when it comes to Helly Hansen products.
This particular jacket is 2 ply fabric, 4 way stretch, is not fully seam taped and is designed with H2Flow which is designed to have less insulation and use your body heat to circulate in the H2Flow system giving you back your own heat.

They have many jackets with many functions depending on what you're looking for. I would suggest checking with where you purchased it and see if you can replace it with another Helly Hansen that is fully seam taped and more insulation, especially if you're wearing it in -0º.

Example, I have this Helly Hansen Kit which is not insulated at all, but I wear a down layer with it. Fully seam taped with no air getting in.
https://forum.pugski.com/threads/helly-hansen-kvitegga-jacket-and-powder-pants.7798/
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
27,298
Location
Reno
Haha! To be fair, I realize this thread is a little ridiculous, considering I haven't even taken it onto the mountain for a day yet! I'll have to update it after my first trip West next week.
You may find that the H2Flow Jacket works well with your body heat when you're skiing.
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
Skier
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Posts
5,775
Location
Denver, CO
First test run, I took the dog for a walk in 0 degree F temps wearing a white tshirt, flannel button down, and the HH Alpha jacket. And... I was disappointingly cold.

Not surprised. In those temps whenever I walk my dogs I put on a Thick Outdoor Research Down Parka I have had for years. It has quite a bit of 800-fill down and has a baffled construction. Primaloft insulation is pretty useless at those temps in low activity. Even at 10-15F I use that down parka.
 

Slim

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
2,973
Location
Duluth, MN
Very nice breakdown, and you bring up a great point. My old setup for 10-30 degree skiing in the Rockies was:

Baselayer: Under Armour Cold Gear
Midlayer: A cheap, $8 cotton waffle shirt from Walmart. (horrible, I know)
Outerlayer: Entry level Burton jacket with 60 grams of insulation.

And you're dead on about the time break downs. Chilly to start the day, comfortable throughout the day, but after a full day of 25-30,000 vertical feet, I was a swampy mess on the last run.

With everyone's input, I'm thinking I might be okay with the same base layer, the HH outerlayer, and replacing that cheap midlayer with something a little more high performance. Leaning towards Under Armour's Waffle shirt, which is 70% polyester, and hopefully a little more breathable and similar warmth.

Any other light midlayer suggestions? Or should I be looking to go heavier fleece since I've got a more breathable (and potentially draftier) jacket now?

I would not get that UA shirt, because it’s 28% cotton. There is no need for cotton any more. So many synthetic and wool shirts and sweaters avaible, at all price points. Even target and Old Navy have a selection of synthetic, wicking apparel. Then there is military surplus. About 20 years ago the army finally started ditching cotton, so there is a decent selection there too.


Just as an example, here is a page from Old Navy, note they have 20% off those prices:
http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/category.do?cid=1071903&sop=true&mlink=1092152,leftnav,Left_Nav_Gym_to_Street&clink=leftnav

http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=1095346&pcid=1092152&vid=1&pid=828124002

http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/m...50336?showProducts=&color=781&sizetype=&size=

I really like hybrid jackets like this:
http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/m...50337?showProducts=&color=781&sizetype=&size=

Fleece over most of the body for breathability, but with a Primaloft panel in front for extra wind proofing, to make up for a lack of wind resistance in your outer jacket. Then, If you get warm, you can unzip your outer jacket and let the wind blow through, while still keeping the wind off your chest. On the chairlift (the coldest part of skiing) the backrest will keep wind off your back, and the Primaloft panel will have extra wind proofing and warmth up front.


https://www.sierratradingpost.com/o...EgKhCPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&codes-processed=true
 
Last edited:

Slim

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
2,973
Location
Duluth, MN
Primaloft insulation is pretty useless at those temps in low activity. Even at 10-15F I use that down parka.

Tha is not correct. It is entirely possible to have a super warm synthetic parka (in fact I have one, Patagonia DAS parka, and before that, even warmer, Golite SixMonthNight parka) that far exceeds many down jackets in warmth (I have one of those too, a 6 oz down filled pullover).

Achieving high insulation value is solely a question of using enough fill.

Down (especially high fill power down) does have some significant benefits over synthetics:
  • It lasts much longer
  • It is MUCH lighter for the same amount of insulation
  • It is more supple and compressible for the same amount of insulation
Because of the last two, most brands choose to make their super warm parka’s with down, in order to keep weight lower and make them more comfortable and supple to wear.

I suspect this is what leads people to say “if you want really warm, you need down”. All the really warm parkas they have seen are down, all the synthetic parkas they have seen (especially if they are used, so lost loft) are less warm, so they believe it’s the fill material making the difference.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
There are wind-proofier jackets out there.

My Arc'teryx GoreTex shells are incredibly, noticeably windproof. Patagonia GoreTex shells seem to be the same. You'll be blown off the lift before they'll let air in.

Primaloft insulation is pretty useless at those temps in low activity.

I suspect this is what leads people to say “if you want really warm, you need down”. All the really warm parkas they have seen are down, all the synthetic parkas they have seen (especially if they are used, so lost loft) are less warm, so they believe it’s the fill material making the difference.

Yeah, as a person who 1) gets very cold when not exerting and 2) can't have down, I promise there are warm synthetic clothes out there. I would love to have down, but I've survived just fine without.
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
Skier
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Posts
4,806
Location
Whitefish, MT
Ski jackets are designed for exertion not for walking the dog. Take it for a run and then compare!
Indeed. I don't use my ski jacket for anything except skiing. The dog gets walked in a jacket rated for -25. Although I've experienced those temps skiing, I've never needed that jacket for it except once. And these days they close the lifts if it gets that cold. I use a 3-in-1 system of shell with alternative liners that covers everything.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Indeed. I don't use my ski jacket for anything except skiing. The dog gets walked in a jacket rated for -25. Although I've experienced those temps skiing, I've never needed that jacket for it except once. And these days they close the lifts if it gets that cold. I use a 3-in-1 system of shell with alternative liners that covers everything.

Hmm. I usually use the dog walk as a test run for my ski layering. If it's a powder day, they won't have shoveled the sidewalks yet, and I'll underdress. Otherwise, sweat like a pig.
 
Thread Starter
TS
TonyPlush

TonyPlush

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Posts
492
Location
Minnesota
I would not get that UA shirt, because it’s 28% cotton. There is no need for cotton any more. So many synthetic and wool shirts and sweaters avaible, at all price points. Even target and Old Navy have a selection of synthetic, wicking apparel. Then there is military surplus. About 20 years ago the army finally started ditching cotton, so there is a decent selection there too.


Just as an example, here is a page from Old Navy, note they have 20% off those prices:
http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/category.do?cid=1071903&sop=true&mlink=1092152,leftnav,Left_Nav_Gym_to_Street&clink=leftnav

http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=1095346&pcid=1092152&vid=1&pid=828124002

http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/m...50336?showProducts=&color=781&sizetype=&size=

I really like hybrid jackets like this:
http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/m...50337?showProducts=&color=781&sizetype=&size=

Fleece over most of the body for breathability, but with a Primaloft panel in front for extra wind proofing, to make up for a lack of wind resistance in your outer jacket. Then, If you get warm, you can unzip your outer jacket and let the wind blow through, while still keeping the wind off your chest. On the chairlift (the coldest part of skiing) the backrest will keep wind off your back, and the Primaloft panel will have extra wind proofing and warmth up front.

https://www.sierratradingpost.com/o...EgKhCPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&codes-processed=true
Awesome recommendations. I just picked up these two from Old Navy for a total of $37 with shipping.

http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=823329012&cid=1071903

http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=827338012&cid=1071903

I'll try them out next week and see how they do. If I'm cold, I'll spring for a nicer hybrid jacket. That Eddie Bauer hybrid looks awesome.
 

David

"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
Skier
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Posts
1,346
Location
Holland, MI
I'll try them out next week and see how they do. If I'm cold, I'll spring for a nicer hybrid jacket. That Eddie Bauer hybrid looks awesome.
If yoy layer correctly yiu should be warm, unless you're nit moving much. I ski in sub zero with my shell.
 

Sponsor

Top