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Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Speaking of pain - I went out to ski Saturday morning. It had started snowing heavily at about 6:40 and there were several inches, and still dumping. I didn't take any pain meds; knew my knee was a little wonky, but hoped it would be okay.

I made it about two hours of skiing. The soft snow in the trees was actually the least painful - slalom turns around trees were gentler than bumps or the chop on groomers. But it seems to be something new and different! The outside of my knee hurts, just when skiing or other lateral force movements. If I had to guess, I'd guess an LCL strain. Not happy. Whatever it is, when I've had it even to a lesser degree, it's lasted a few months. And of course I missed most of the snow yesterday and the leftovers today - they're bombing the upper mountain, which was invisible yesterday.

Meh.
 

PTskier

Been goin' downhill for years....
Pass Pulled
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Posts
583
Location
Washington, the state
...Ken made a great golf analogy that helped me really relax my upper body a lot.
I asked Jay what a golf coach would say to a developing golfer who was clenched up. He said, "Grip soft." OK, Jay, "GRIP SOFT whole body!"

Mrs. 53 is a great skier and fun to ski with. She, from Maine, didn't think that she could ski powder until we took a wrong turn and ended up down one of Vail's back bowls. She did fine.
 

wyowindrunner

Getting off the lift
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Aug 26, 2016
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430
You should just search out some powder on the side of trails or in odd flat areas, where you can just go straight. I'm talking pretty slow here, but fast enough to go through it. Come to a stop in it, get back on groomed, get a little speed, then do it again.

The point being just to get a feel of the snow without having to actually do anything like turn, which causes stress. The powder feels amazing. Even if you have to pole a little through it. It's good to increase the positive sensations of powder. Trust us, there's a reason people spend many thousands for heli skiing.

Cutup snow can be quite challenging.
the snow has a great braking affect, and that is why speed is your friend in powder. The other nice thing about powder is that you do not have to worry about limiting your speed, you can do that by letting the increase in resistance do that for you. One tip from James advice above,when coming off the groomed area into the powder- shift your weight slightly rearward, more so as depth increases. This will balance out the momentum of the upper body as the skis meet the sudden resistance of the new medium you have entered.
Cut up snow will challenge your balance a heck of a lot more and if you have not reached a parallel stage yet- still stemming- you will have difficulty. Obviously the deeper the more-quick feet and "platform" is the key. I really like skiing cut up powder and searching for the untracked patches in it.
 

James

Out There
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Dec 2, 2015
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24,841
One tip from James advice above,when coming off the groomed area into the powder- shift your weight slightly rearward, more so as depth increases. This will balance out the momentum of the upper body as the skis meet the sudden resistance of the new medium you have entered.
Good point. You'll figure out how much is appropriate. It's analogous to preparing to get off a moving sidewalk or being on a train as it comes to a stop. Coming off a sidewalk we usually speed up our feet. As you can't do that skiing we move our body rearward to prepare for the feet slowing down.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Good point. You'll figure out how much is appropriate. It's analogous to preparing to get off a moving sidewalk or being on a train as it comes to a stop. Coming off a sidewalk we usually speed up our feet. As you can't do that skiing we move our body rearward to prepare for the feet slowing down.

+1

In general, being in a super forward position in powder can be a problem because hidden obstacles and variable density can ALSO throw you forward. Of course, you don't want to be too far in the back seat - if nothing else, it tires you out faster - but powder, lovely as it is, obscures things - icy bumps can look like a blank canvas of perfectly even snow. Rocks. Stumps. Ruts.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Started at 53

Started at 53

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Posts
2,129
Location
Not Ikon, UT
Yesterday was a breakthrough day. I took a 3 hour private lesson with a great instruction and he really give me some good stuff to push me forward. I was skiing areas that I was previously either very defensive or unable to even attempt. Skied my first blue runs and it was not a problem at all.

Huge shoutout and thanks to Royce Parsons, this was taken on Little Stick, my first ever Blue Run
84C36710-BB74-47B2-AFC6-484D4AF4CE68.jpeg


Gonna do a lot of exploring today while I work on my new stuff
 
Thread Starter
TS
Started at 53

Started at 53

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Mar 26, 2017
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2,129
Location
Not Ikon, UT
Because I was taking a lesson that was going to involve a “1000 turns”, there was not a lot of vertical or speed yesterday, but here goes:

Top Speed 19.9 mph
Vertical 8850’
12.2 miles
 
Thread Starter
TS
Started at 53

Started at 53

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Posts
2,129
Location
Not Ikon, UT
Here is a video from mid-lesson, lots of progress was made after the video

Here is a video from the following day, but I was pretty tired at this point as I headed into the Stag lodge for a snack and hydration. I was a bit in the backseat at this point as I was tired. And YES, @Mrs. 53 needs to learn to video in landscape mode

Yesterday’s stats
Vertical 9822’
Speed 20.7
Distance 14.9 miles
14 runs

Once again I was primarily working on the technique from the previous day’s lesson, so limited distance and vertical as I was making what seemed like millions of of turns.

Left footed turns are not nearly as good as right footed turns at this point. Got the right footed hockey stop going a bit too
 

Fuller

Semi Local
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Feb 18, 2016
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1,523
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Whitefish or Florida
It takes a lot of determination to learn a finesse / balance sport in your 50's but at least skiing can be fun from the first day you try. Some sports just have too much pain and suffering mixed into the learning curve to make it worthwhile. If you were considering learning how to surf at age 50 I would strongly suggest drinking Mai Tais on the beach instead - It would be healthier!

But regardless, it can take a while to see improvement even if you put everything you can into it. Sometimes I've been disheartened with my progress for many days, sustained only by the incredible beauty of my surroundings (and how much I invested in equipment and travel costs). Then the day finally comes when it all feels right and I realize I have actually made an improvement.

Strangely I think I improved the most over the past summer, I spent some time reviewing everything I could read and imagined how it would feel doing it. I practiced very hard in my own imagination how it feels to carve a turn with separation and angulation, completing a turn and moving my COM over my BOS in the transition. It must have worked because my first day back on snow I could do it with competency if not style.

I watch everyone coming down the mountain when I'm on the lift. I look at their moves and see what is working for them, especially in the bumps under the lift. I combine those observations with the theory (supplied by this forum) the "mind skiing" over the summer and finally actual time on the snow. It's the long way around Fischer's Barn so to speak but it's a process that works for me. The fact that most 10 year old's could learn it in a week doesn't deter me - at 65 I'm stoked to be improving at anything.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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Mar 25, 2016
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Truckee
Hello, 53. Like others, I've watched your progress with interest, and we're all rooting for you. The new video is very helpful in letting us understand where you are in advancing your skills.

As an instructor, I tend to push my students pretty hard. They usually end up appreciating it. I hope you can accept my comments in that spirit.

What I suggest you do first is look again at your new video clips, and compare them to video of skilled skiers in free skiing situations. Don't focus on wedge vs. parallel turns, etc. Instead, focus on more fundamental movement patterns that underlie all skiing. I think that you will see that like most novices, you have a quite stiff appearance in your skiing, as compared to advanced skiers who exhibit great flexibility and fluidity in multiple dimensions.

You have already achieved important goals for new skiers--stability, decent balance, the ability to make a variety of turn sizes and shapes where and when you want, and confidence. Your next goal as a skier should be to move in the direction of that greater flexibility. It's high time for that, get on it! Here are some specific areas to focus upon:

o While your overall stance and balance is functional, you have a marked tendency to sort of crunch down and back as you get into the body of a turn in order to put pressure on the inside edge if the outside ski. You will learn, especially as you work on other skills, that this is unnecessary and counterproductive. Instead, aim for a more consistent, strong posture throughout the turn cycle, staying centered in the fore-aft dimension. We see with many skiers that at some point in a turn, the core goes flabby, the back goes hollow, the pelvic angle changes, the butt goes back, the shoulder blades come together, and the elbows get pinned to the torso. It is difficult for me to see what happens to every aspect of your posture. However, I see you developing those "dinosaur arms" during the turn cycle, a common indicator of posture issues. Try to suck your belly button into your spine, and hold it there. Meanwhile, relax and round your shoulders, letting your hands come forward and out. Think strong in the core, relaxed in the shoulders. This should promote the goal of skiing from a stable, quiet upper body, while having great freedom of movement in both the legs and the arms. Try focusing on this initially while doing straight runs, or runs with only slight turns, over gentle, undulating terrain.

o When you form your wedge, concentrate hard on making it entirely by rotating your femurs in your hip sockets. This will make your knees come toward each other a bit. I am seeng you instead do it it too much by twisting your feet--a below-the-knee action. This results in FLAT SKIS, which are ineffective. Practice with straight runs initially--into and out of a wedge. I think that you will find that this one change will make a huge difference, bringing everything else together for you. You will no longer feel motivated to crunch down to get on that outside edge. You will be able to ski using a SMALLER wedge, a great immediate objective for you. Any time you have control or speed issues, you want to fix it with a BETTER wedge, not a bigger one.

o Develop much greater vertical flexibility--flexion and extension, getting taller and shorter, call it what you will. Practice this just standing still at first, on skis, out of skis, or even back at the cabin in your stocking feet. See how short you can get while remaining in an athletic stance, very well centered over your feet, doing it by flexing all joints. Then get even shorter. Touch the ground with your hands while doing it. Then see how tall you can get. Move up and down between the extremes slowly and smoothly, staying centered over your feet. Now do it while skiing, again initially on gentle, undulating terrain. Practice using flexion to absorb bumps, and extension to fill in the hollows. Strive for steady pressure underfoot. Then do the opposite--try popping off a roller to catch air!

o The next focus--a big, important one!--is to develop upper-lower body separation in your skiing. In a nutshell, this means keeping the entire upper body--pelvis on up--oriented more or less down the fall line, while allowing your legs to turn back and forth under you--along with, of course, the skis to which they are attached. Again, you can initially practice this standing still, on or off skis. Orient the body forward, and progressively step your feet to point left, then right. Try it both in a wedge and parallel. Then aim for the same result while skiing. This is a skill with which you will probably find it essential to have an instructor's coaching. An instructor can give you ongoing feedback, and many good drills to promote the goal.

o You are showing a marked tendency to start a turn with a stemming move. What you want to learn is to initiate a turn with a release of the old edges. Again, coaching on this is likely essential. You want to find the right instructor. Not all are sufficiently focused on this, IMHO. You will find that the release will be easier and will come naturally as you develop upper-lower body separation. It really does all fit together!

o Start practicing traverses and shallow J-turns in a pure parallel stance. You want to ingrain the feeling of this strongly in non-intimidating situations. The goal is equal edge angles, created primarily through knee angulation. Don't get sloppy with it! A focus here, again, is upper-lower body separation. Again, coaching would be a huge plus. Too many students get so damn good at the wedge that they never want to do anything else! Don't be one of them.

Get really good at all of these things, and I think you'll find that pure parallel turns are then an easy progression--or may even happen spontaneously!
 
Last edited:

HardDaysNight

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Nov 7, 2017
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1,351
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Park City, UT
^^^Great post. Agree with all of it! I haven’t been watching this thread so I hope 53 doesn’t mind my asking how many days on snow he’s had and how much instruction. No ulterior motive, just interest.
 

Bolder

Out on the slopes
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Dec 1, 2017
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486
I think Jay is right where you would be expect him to be at this point. I'm comparing him to my wife, who you could call "started at 42." She has 15 days on (alpine) snow, with 9 days of lessons (3 hours each day) and the rest "freeskiing." Their forms look nearly identical, with some of the same issues identified by Chris V.

That leads me to believe that for the older (motivated) learner there is a certain order in which things come together. I don't think you can really talk about flexion and separation just yet, to be honest. What really seems to count is time on snow (provided it's productive time) and perfecting patterns of motion that lead to the desired effect.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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Mar 25, 2016
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Truckee
I don't think you can really talk about flexion and separation just yet, to be honest.

Respectfully, I disagree. Flexion and extension is something I like to start practicing early, early, early, maybe the afternoon of the first day on skis. I don't mean that I'll try to instill some precise flexion and extension pattern through the turn cycle. It starts with simply learning to make adjustments to small terrain variations. It's a great habit to get into. And not hard, at the introductory level. This is one of those topics on which the instructor furnishes the introduction, and the student figures out a lot more for himself. I believe ski instruction is like that. Students figure out about 95% of it on their own. And they have to--there's so much. Instructors teach only 5%. But that 5% is pure gold. Choose wisely.

This ties in strongly to terrain based teaching, which is THE BEST THING EVER.

Upper-lower body separation is fundamental. Good introductory lessons get a student stable and balanced. 53 is stable and balanced. What are you going to work on next? :)
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Mar 25, 2016
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Truckee
That leads me to believe that for the older (motivated) learner there is a certain order in which things come together. ...What really seems to count is time on snow (provided it's productive time) and perfecting patterns of motion that lead to the desired effect.

With all of this, I agree. :)
 

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