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Cage Match Comparison 2017 Stöckli Laser AX vs 2017 Stöckli Laser SX

Magi

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I'm considering a pair of SX's as a development ski to train for beyond the PSIA L3 exam. (To me - "Development" means a ski that will give feedback on/punish poor technique, but rewards doing things right to a high degree.)

The precision of the SX on piste seems pretty clear - can anyone give their thoughts on training with the SX's in bumps and variable terrain?

Bump - @Philpug @Ron Any thoughts here?
 
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laine

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I stopped in to a local ski shop just to look at what they have and they have a 2016-17 AX on sale in a 159.

Is this the same construction as the current turtle model? Is the turtle model flex-ier in the tip and tail?

Would this be too long/stiff for me? I'm advanced, 5'1, 111-ish. Just wondering if it's worth adding to my consideration list for a front-side carver that can also handle bumps/crud.
 

Ron

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@Doug Briggs for advice on this too.

We just demoed the SX in 170. its a rec SL ski for sure with a lot of HP. Its not a total one-trick pony but you certainly dont want to get caught in the backseat. I also think unlike the Fischer Curve GT, it is capable of making medium radius turns.
 

Doug Briggs

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I can't speak to the history of construction or flex pattern, but the 2019 SX was a stable, responsive and exciting ski. I'd add it to my quiver in a flash. I'd use it for WROD and 'long time since it snowed' days, which is kind of stating the obvious.
 

Kurt

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I stopped in to a local ski shop just to look at what they have and they have a 2016-17 AX on sale in a 159.

Is this the same construction as the current turtle model? Is the turtle model flex-ier in the tip and tail?

Would this be too long/stiff for me? I'm advanced, 5'1, 111-ish. Just wondering if it's worth adding to my consideration list for a front-side carver that can also handle bumps/crud.
I recall the Stocki shop in Vevey, Switzerland saying that the 2016/17 is the same as the 2017/18 but perhaps email Stockli in US to check. Could be difference in Switzerland and US in when it was distributed. If it is the turtle shell version it is definitely worth consideration.
 

Wendy

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I stopped in to a local ski shop just to look at what they have and they have a 2016-17 AX on sale in a 159.

Is this the same construction as the current turtle model? Is the turtle model flex-ier in the tip and tail?

Would this be too long/stiff for me? I'm advanced, 5'1, 111-ish. Just wondering if it's worth adding to my consideration list for a front-side carver that can also handle bumps/crud.
I’d say it’s worth consideration. Did you talk to the shop people? Maybe email Stockli?
If it’s day-glo green, it’s the turtle shell model.
 

John Baumer

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My .02 cents on this "Turtle Shell' thing. It would be interesting to get out a saw and take a look at what they are doing. I can say from experience, that something is going on with this technology. I had the Stockli Laser AR 183 [same ski as the previous AX] as my all mountain ski. I now have the newest Laser AX in the same size. The dimensions of the two are exact. The AR was a really nice, smooth and plush ride. In terms of excitement, it was far behind my Laser SLs, SCs and GSs. The AX is even better in terms of forgiveness in rougher conditions, and easy cruising. What is exceptional about the new AX, is what happens when you put the whip to these. Absolutely remarkable, ripping ski. I would love to ski the Laser SX and see what the Turtle Shell thing does to that ski. FWIW, I am 6'4" and 260+. Your results may vary.
 

Ron

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the turtle thing was explained to me by the Stockli rep as mesh-like metal that allows horizontal flex but when the ski is tipped on edge and flexes laterally, the mesh interlocks and becomes rigid. That's exactly what you feel.
 

ARL67

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Found this video of Turtle Shell -> though in German, you get the gist.

 

Eric Edelstein

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I just spent a bunch of laps on the 18-19 SX Turtle Shell and AX Turtle Shell "Comfort" here in Vermont on some superb carving surfaces and mixed-fresh snow surfaces. In my book, the hot-rod SX is one of the reference standard race-carvers on the planet. Just a superbly balanced blend of auto-engagement, turn shape, power handling, dampness, energy and feedback to make any technical skier become hopelessly addicted. Simply put, the SX is stunning carving instrument of the highest quality when you don't want to drive an SL-only race ski all day. This is a ripping frontside trench-digger with impeccable manners and limitless power handling. When you want to remember what a best-of-breed carving ski feels like, put the SX underfoot. While I love the Head i-series of carvers, I think the Stockl series is just a notch above.

The AX model with "Turtle Shell Comfort" feature has just a wee-hint of tip rocker and different geometry to deliver a ride nearly as intensely satisfying as the SX, but in a more forgiving and adaptable chassis. The AX trades off a bit of carving intensity and surgical accuracy for a slightly looser and forgiving turn engagement up front and an ever-so-slightly less-intensive mid-turn edge-set feeling. The AX does not demand the same level of attention the SX does when you exit your turn under pressure, letting you get a little more relaxed after your apex (if you want). Overall, the AX is more forgiving if you find some fresh snow or cut-up snow on your groomers, but you still wouldn't call the AX an "all-mountain" ski. I think both the SX and AX are groomer-only power carving tools of the highest order, with the purists and SL addicts being suited to the SX, and those with more varied turn radius habits leaning toward the AX.

Both are stunning examples of the same carving prowess in different intensities and levels of forgiveness. The designers at Stockli know this breed of ski perfectly and delivered two models with just enough difference to suit the picky technical carving geeks who crave race-ski performance of the highest quality without the restrictions pure race skis exhibit. I loved these two skis. Great performance and stunning material and construction quality. Premium skis at a premium price.
 

Kurt

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I just spent a bunch of laps on the 18-19 SX Turtle Shell and AX Turtle Shell "Comfort" here in Vermont on some superb carving surfaces and mixed-fresh snow surfaces. In my book, the hot-rod SX is one of the reference standard race-carvers on the planet. Just a superbly balanced blend of auto-engagement, turn shape, power handling, dampness, energy and feedback to make any technical skier become hopelessly addicted. Simply put, the SX is stunning carving instrument of the highest quality when you don't want to drive an SL-only race ski all day. This is a ripping frontside trench-digger with impeccable manners and limitless power handling. When you want to remember what a best-of-breed carving ski feels like, put the SX underfoot. While I love the Head i-series of carvers, I think the Stockl series is just a notch above.

The AX model with "Turtle Shell Comfort" feature has just a wee-hint of tip rocker and different geometry to deliver a ride nearly as intensely satisfying as the SX, but in a more forgiving and adaptable chassis. The AX trades off a bit of carving intensity and surgical accuracy for a slightly looser and forgiving turn engagement up front and an ever-so-slightly less-intensive mid-turn edge-set feeling. The AX does not demand the same level of attention the SX does when you exit your turn under pressure, letting you get a little more relaxed after your apex (if you want). Overall, the AX is more forgiving if you find some fresh snow or cut-up snow on your groomers, but you still wouldn't call the AX an "all-mountain" ski. I think both the SX and AX are groomer-only power carving tools of the highest order, with the purists and SL addicts being suited to the SX, and those with more varied turn radius habits leaning toward the AX.

Both are stunning examples of the same carving prowess in different intensities and levels of forgiveness. The designers at Stockli know this breed of ski perfectly and delivered two models with just enough difference to suit the picky technical carving geeks who crave race-ski performance of the highest quality without the restrictions pure race skis exhibit. I loved these two skis. Great performance and stunning material and construction quality. Premium skis at a premium price.
Well said, nice description. Only comment is re: "all-mountain"; around here, folks think of the AX as an all-mountain carver that can ski anything on piste or off (except back country). I've found that the AX performs really well off-piste in a variety of condition - wind-blown variables, wind chalk, bumps, and even some powder. Of course I'd choose my powder skis for anything over 8cm of so, but I've totally changed my opinion and found that you can have fun in powder on narrower skis - easier to get face shots too.
 

laine

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So I'm curious about this turtle technology. Does it make it damper/stiffer than the 2015/16 version? Or does it make the tip and tail more "flexy" or poppier?

Trying to understand the impact of the technology. The basic construction of the older and new ski is basically the same, except for the turtle.

2015/16 for reference - https://www.skimag.com/gear/stockli-laser-ax-2016
 

PTskier

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I think post #49 explains the Turtle Shell action; it matches the Stöckli video. I think, as mentioned, it is the cuts in the Titanal aluminum alloy sheet that allows tip & tail flex but restricts twisting. I think. They sure have a horrible web site. Too gimmicky, too hard to find any real information. The AX does have an aluminum layer--I saw that when I drilled the binding screw holes.

I have the new AX. A friend has the previous AX. We both think our skis are the greatest skis ever. He hasn't been on the new ones. If you buy either, you'll love them. Another buddy usually skis on race slalom skis as his everyday skis. He returned Z-90s. I gave him a run on my AX--I thought I'd have to knock him over to get them off his feet. He bought a pair.

They're tight & secure on hard pack. Carves like a sharp knife. Fun in bumps. Good in crud. Got me through 11" of moderately heavy fresh snow with no heartburn, actually fun, I did several runs.
 
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PTskier

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About the sinuous cut in the aluminum sheet in the Turtle Shell...depending on that chemical content of the aluminum alloy and the power of the laser, the kerf can be as narrow as 0.11 mm. That's the slot of the cut...just over a tenth of a millimeter wide cut.

About the aluminum (likely AMAG Titanal which is used by many ski makers):

AMAG Titanal® is used as a supporting element in high-quality composite skis. The material’s isotropic characteristics and an elongation limit of > 600 MPa with thicknesses of 0.50-1.20 mm are used to enhance torsion resistance, edge grip and smooth running. On the other hand, the deformation tendency is markedly reduced. Bonding in composites, e.g. with epoxy resin adhesives is achieved by means of an adaptive version of AMAG Titanal® with a thin, open pore phosphoric acid anodised layer.

https://www.amag.at/en/our-aluminium/sporting-consumer-products/sporting-goods/amag-titanalr.html
 

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