Wanted: drill for narrow stance

[Cheizz]

So, I am training indoors on a weekly basis. Just working on my ski technique in general. One thing I find very hard to do is that narrow stance. Short turns aren't my forte, but it's very useful to have a good short turn in one's arsenal (for skiing bumps, trees, powder, steeps, etc.).

I find I make some progress in the energy, rhythm and edging in my short turns (not yet where I want it to be, but I've got time to improve). But my feet are quite wide apart. I feel this wider platform hinders the snappiness and agility. Moreover, it leaves room (literally) for my feet to move independently from each other, becoming two seperate platforms, actually. In bumps and powder, this disrupts flow and stability.

So: any drills that I can do that help me getting and keeping my feet closer together (laterally)? Right now, I sometimes look like a young dear on a slippery surface...

I don't have bumps to practice in, not until next winter, at least...

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Look at the movements in this video:
You can practice them indoors standing some place like the inside corner of a kitchen counter, or in a doorway, and involve pressure changes from foot to foot. When you get back on the snow, look for some shallow terrain to follow Sean's foot rolling exercise.

 

[Read Blinn]

Hm. I'm no instructor, but narrow stance is much in the province of HH (though Beaulieu and characterize it as well). He agrees that closer feet permit more turning speed and greater agility (and as most schools admit, in bumps and irregular snow, narrow is better).

My early self-teaching came from HH internet tips, and I ended up comfortable with a fairly narrow stance. Lightening and tipping the inside ski seems key (but I'd avoid a one-footed tendency) — and narrow stance seems to be mainly about subtle foot movements. Higher edge angles mean more separation, but vertical separation, not horizontal.

Again, I'm no instructor. You might check out the Harald, though — he's controversial, of course, but you can adapt anything, and he has a number of drills. Whether those drills are designed for more advanced skiers, though, I can't say. @HeluvaSkier can probably tell you more.

Edit: Or Kneale.

 

[Tricia]

I find I make some progress in the energy, rhythm and edging in my short turns (not yet where I want it to be, but I've got time to improve). But my feet are quite wide apart. I feel this wider platform hinders the snappiness and agility. Moreover, it leaves room (literally) for my feet to move independently from each other, becoming two seperate platforms, actually. In bumps and powder, this disrupts flow and stability.

This request seems a bit counter intuitive to everything that every contemporary instructor has been drilling into me.
My stance is a little too narrow. I'm constantly being told to get my feet apart to be able to get my skis on edge.

Perhaps the difference between you and me is

• My feet are too close together, so I need to work on that for myself.
• Your stance may be considerably wider than average

 

[Josh Matta]

the more you can balance on your outside ski the narrower your stance can be.

 

[Read Blinn]

This request seems a bit counter intuitive to everything that every contemporary instructor has been drilling into me.
My stance is a little too narrow. I'm constantly being told to get my feet apart to be able to get my skis on edge.

Perhaps the difference between you and me is

• My feet are too close together, so I need to work on that for myself.
• Your stance may be considerably wider than average

The standard PSIA thing is wider stance for stability. Whether this is functionally preferable, an institutional bias, or a institutional reaction to the old knees-locked style, I don't know.

Speaking only for myself, I've found a wide stance limiting when it's horizontal (bases flat). Actually arcing turns, when the separation is vertical, space between skis seems definitely advantageous.

 

[oldschoolskier]

The only wrong stance width is one that limits your movement. Limiting yourself to one width variation only limits what you can do.

While any of the courses currently teach wider stances for balance and ski technology, top level skiers add to their bag of tricks anything from skis touching to ultra wide stances to adjust to needs and conditions. Stance becomes dynamic for them and should for you to progress.

As for getting there be it narrow or wide, ski a normal run repeatedly starting with what you like, next time widen it out a bit (you find advantages), third time narrow it a bit (find those advantages) and back to comfort zone, slowly increase the extremes. You will slow adapt and incorporate the best of what works becoming more dynamic.

Finally, something I strongly believe in 360 spins, side slips and their variations for balance and edge feel. Stance width here can greatly exaggerate perfection or errors. You should be able to do it in all but the widest widths. These are easy do on your own as what feels right and works the easiest is likely right, on any run a 5 second spin or slip teaches a lot with little impact of fun time. If this is a natural extension in your skiing then a dynamic stance follows course. Everything else just gets easier.

IMHO all other drills fine tune skills or correct mental/physical blocks that allow you to progress. Great instructors can see those and know what to use to correct and enhance those. Hence a lesson or two on occasion is good even when you are on the top.

 

[rcc55125]

Cheizz, you didn't say where or how you were training indoors. If it's in a gym, a Bosu ball is a great ski training aid.
With the round side of the Bosu down you can take a flexed skiing stance and balance on the flat side and do the ankle tipping exercises Kneale outlined. The ball will tip so you can feel big and little toe edge as well as having a long leg and short leg. This will also allow you to work on angulation by keeping your belly button over your big toe edge keeping pressure to the outside edge.
With the round side up take a flexed skiing stance on the top. With weight slightly toward the ball of the foot hop by pulling your feet and knees up while rotating your feet and legs left and right. Rotate your legs so the feet move about 45 degrees left and right while keeping your torso, belly button, straight ahead; upper body down the fall line. This one takes a bit of practice to stay in balance, it helps to keep a tight core and hands out front. This is a great mogul training exercise. Be careful with this one because you will loose you balance and fall off the ball.
Search YouTube for Bosu skiing exercises, there are a lot of them.

Cheizz and Tricia, for these exercises you want to keep a strong skier stance which is usually described as having your feet about shoulder width apart.
One nice thing about working with a Bosu is you can mark this on the flat side with a piece of tape. To determine a good stance width measure the distance between the points of your hip bone, across your lower belly. Center a piece of tape as long as the hip point distance on the flat of the Bosu. Stand with the arch of your foot on the ends of the tape. A line from your big toe should make a right angle with the end of the tape. This should give you a good basic stance distance.

 

[Cheizz]

I am actually training on an indoor snow slope (20% steep, 300 metres long). See picture below:

@Tricia my stance is quite wide. I ski shoulder-wide right now, but I would like to become more of a complete skier, just adding to mt bag of tricks. For carving long arcs, my stance is fine (could/should get more pressure on the outside ski, still). But for the short, slipped turn, I'm looking to improve right now.

And as I understand that getting more pressure on the outside ski allows for the inner ski to be placed right next to it - how do I accomplish THAT? I it a matter of confidence? Should I just slam my inner leg against my outer leg?

I'll have a try at most things you guys suggested so far. And I have a friend-instructor who often gives me great tips, but I am just browsing for drills or exercises to accomplish this single point at this time. SO, adding to my bag of drills as well, I suppose.

 

[Tricia]

The standard PSIA thing is wider stance for stability. Whether this is functionally preferable, an institutional bias, or a institutional reaction to the old knees-locked style, I don't know.

Speaking only for myself, I've found a wide stance limiting when it's horizontal (bases flat). Actually arcing turns, when the separation is vertical, space between skis seems definitely advantageous.

Keep in mind I'm not saying I need a wide stance, just wider than I currently tend to have. See my avatar for reference

I'm not picking at @Cheizz, just noting that we all work on something different

 

[mdf]

It seems that sensing when your feet separate is an important part of controlling the separation, and nobody has addressed that. Aren't there a family of drills where you try to hold a glove or something between your knees as you ski?

 

[Mendieta]

I'm not picking at @Cheizz, just noting that we all work on something different

Of course you are not I think @oldschoolskier hit this one on the head. Different conditions call for different stances. That's what my PSIA instructors told me. To be sure, they more often asked me to reduce width than increase it. I think, clearly, most beginner skiers have a stance too wide.

All thing said, I don't think @Cheizz is looking for a general discussion on stance width (which we could have separately), but rather for something really specific, which is drills to practice a narrower stance. I am pretty sure he knows what he is looking for.

A couple ideas: at the gym, assuming you go to a gym, do abductor training. I normally use the awkward chair I had been avoiding for decades. And I do the adductor chair as well, what the heck.

Another idea is railroad tracks at the beginning of that beautiful indoor track you showed. Before you pick up speed, try to keep your feet at the distance you want. As you pick up speed. you will probably carve longer radius and you will need more angulation, and a wider stance. You can actually stop and see your tracks.

@Cheizz , that indoor place seems like a great place to stay in shape in summer!

 

[Cheizz]

@Cheizz , that indoor place seems like a great place to stay in shape in summer!

Not just in the summer.... Here in Holland, we have no mountains and no snow. So this is all we have. Lucky for us, it's a 365 days a year thing.

 

[markojp]

The standard PSIA thing is wider stance for stability. Whether this is functionally preferable, an institutional bias, or a institutional reaction to the old knees-locked style, I don't know.

Speaking only for myself, I've found a wide stance limiting when it's horizontal (bases flat). Actually arcing turns, when the separation is vertical, space between skis seems definitely advantageous.

Reid, there is no 'standard for stance width' in PSIA that I'm familiar with or have ever heard of, but I'm only finishing season 6. As Josh correctly states, the greater the ability to direct pressure to the outside ski through the entire arc, the greater the ability to narrow one's stance. I've always addressed stance width as a tactical choice, not a visual. As a starting point, I like feet below femur heads, not shoulders. (I'd have to do cowboy turn to ski shoulder width.) That said, there's always room for individual misunderstanding and misinterpreting information by individual instructors and even schools in an organization as large as PSIA. Anyway, for Cheizz, anything to get us from outside ski to outside ski. Not having seen his skiing, it's hard to suggest anything more than a generic prescription of variants of one ski skiing outside ski to outside ski assuming there are no serious boot alignment issues.

 

[Read Blinn]

Reid, there is no 'standard for stance width' in PSIA that I'm familiar with or have ever heard of, but I'm only finishing season 6. As Josh correctly states, the greater the ability to direct pressure to the outside ski through the entire arc, the greater the ability to narrow one's stance.

You're right — an assumption on my part, taken from instructors I've had.

 

[James]

If you're skiing shoulder width all the time perhaps you are set up too far on your outside edges. Youcould check this inside by standing on a flat surface in boots and skis. Put like a 25mm soft foam pad under the skis. Put a straight edge across the top of skis and see what happens. Of course if the tops aren't flat it's a problem.

I've seen this recommended by Mark Elling in his book.

I've never seen anyone who's good at moguls ski them in a wide stance. Basically feet together but independent. (Not saying it can't be done. For simple purposes though -yes it can't be done.)
Most people who are not good in bumps actually get wider in moguls than on groomed. But on groomed they usually don't commit to the outside ski but lean inside. Goes back to what Josh said.

 

[BornToSki683]

So, I am training indoors on a weekly basis. Just working on my ski technique in general. One thing I find very hard to do is that narrow stance. Short turns aren't my forte, but it's very useful to have a good short turn in one's arsenal (for skiing bumps, trees, powder, steeps, etc.).

First question: you asked about narrow stance and then referred to short turns. Just to be clear, a narrower stance then what you appear to be using (based on your description), can be advantageous with all turn sizes. Or are you meaning that you particularly have a hard time getting the feet close together on short turns, but its not so difficult for larger turns?

I find I make some progress in the energy, rhythm and edging in my short turns (not yet where I want it to be, but I've got time to improve). But my feet are quite wide apart. I feel this wider platform hinders the snappiness and agility. Moreover, it leaves room (literally) for my feet to move independently from each other, becoming two seperate platforms, actually. In bumps and powder, this disrupts flow and stability.

You always want your feet to move independently, even with a narrow stance; Even in bumps and powder! You mentioned somewhere later in this thread about locking your legs together. Do NOT do that. Narrow stance has many advantages, I ski with a narrow stance. Many PSIA examiners I know ski with a narrow stance even while preaching a wider stance out of the other side of their mouth. The truth is, a narrow stance works very well, I will elaborate why in a sec; but not if your legs are locked together. The point of a narrow stance is absolutely not about creating a single platform with your two feet or legs locked together. You always want foot and leg independence, even if the feet and legs are 1mm apart from each other.

So: any drills that I can do that help me getting and keeping my feet closer together (laterally)? Right now, I sometimes look like a young dear on a slippery surface...

As Josh mentioned, its all about balance. Focus on one legged balancing drills of any kind whatsoever.

 

[Dave Marshak]

The key is to learn to balance on the outside ski. If you are on the outside ski, it doesn't matter much where the other ski is. You can let you stance width can be whatever it needs to be: narrower in the bumps, maybe a little wider in crud or soft snow.
You need to do exercises that require one foot balancing. Traverses on the downhill foot, traverses in the uphill foot, thousand steps, lift the inside ski in the turn, finish the turn on the inside ski.

dm

 

[BornToSki683]

I am actually training on an indoor snow slope (20% steep, 300 metres long). See picture below:
View attachment 24880

In which case, the harb materials will be beneficial if you want to learn how to adopt a narrower stance. Also Lito Flores' stuff will show you the way.

Some others have touched on balance being critical and I agree. An overly wide stance will definitely detract from achieving that balance over one ski, so merely doing some turns with the inside ski lifted through the whole turn will encourage you to adopt a narrower stance.

However an important factor is also that if your feet are wide through transition, then the CoM has to move a lot longer ways to get from the inside of the old turn to the inside of the new turn and particularly the inside ski will probably be late to get to the Little Toe Edge. When the stance is narrower, its MUCH easier to get the inside ski tipped to the LTE and to have the CoM already on the inside of both skis, that much sooner. This is one of the advantages of a narrower stance...but its also a tip for how you can work on it...

As you start your turns focus on pulling that new inside downhill foot in as close to the uphill foot as you can (without locking it together). Its ok to touch, but keep it independent. Pull it in close and back, establish balance on the uphill new outside ski as you do this. Boom.. narrow stance.

 

[john petersen]

Different terrain requires different tactics. Generally, I agree with first getting your equipment aligned and be sure you dont need footbeds or bootwork.

then, practice your one footed ski drills. inside edges, outside edges, ect.

We all have ingrained lately, that we MUST carve with every turn we make....well, whereas thats true in terms of turn shape in the form of arcs (ideally, of course), it does not mean letting the pure side cut of the ski determine your turning radius. ......Im whispering here.....its okay to cheat and schmear some of your turns.....

you could even try some old fashioned wedelin or shortswing for added fun.....

another exercise is pivot slip turns....purely flat skis...no edges at all....

when you find the balance between pure edge and no edge at all, you will be able to dial in a great deal of versatility.

Let us know how it goes, Im very curious!

JP