Volvo phasing out gas engines

[Swede]

you have to give credit to Elon Musk though....he has become a billionaire despite none of his businesses ever making a profit on their own....

Isn't that the way of modern business? It's like giant pyramide games.

 

[Bill Talbot]

I don't know that it's pessimism really. There are certain economic rules that are generally true with this type of thing. I don't think anyone would give a crap if their car were electric or gas if you could fill/charge it in 5 mins, it went 500 miles and it cost $20k.

I would... but then a car is SO much more than transportation to me.
I will also predict that I will never own an electric vehicle in my lifetime.

 

[scott43]

I would... but then a car is SO much more than transportation to me.
I will also predict that I will never own an electric vehicle in my lifetime.

This is true! That's the third car...

 

[pais alto]

Just wait until it all goes autonomous. Everyone will forget how to drive, and you will need an A in defensive driving before you can apply for a driver's license, if anyone is even allowed to drive. No more getting up early to beat the plows to the ski area on powder days either. It's gonna suck.

dm

No worries, don't forget that employees have to get there early.

I will buy an electric car when, and only when:

That's all I can get.

Fixed it for ya.

 

[Dave Marshak]

No worries, don't forget that employees have to get there early.

Ski area employees have nothing to do with it. Low altitude snow is becoming so uncommon that once it goes all electric and mostly autonomous, TSA will put the world on lockdown after every 2 inch snowfall, and we will all have to work at home where every keystroke will be monitored by Homeland Security. It will be 3 weeks before you even see the parking lot.
Eventually, Russian hackers will disrupt the GPS system, and we will all starve to death in our homes waiting for Amazon to deliver food.

dm

 

[pais alto]

Ski area employees have nothing to do with it. Low altitude snow is becoming so uncommon that once it goes all electric and mostly autonomous, TSA will put the world on lockdown after every 2 inch snowfall, and we will all have to work at home where every keystroke will be monitored by Homeland Security. It will be 3 weeks before you even see the parking lot.
Eventually, Russian hackers will disrupt the GPS system, and we will all starve to death in our homes waiting for Amazon to deliver food.

dm

Oh.

Someone needs a hug.

 

[RachelV]

If you look at it for a moment without the Tesla goggles on, most families are two car families. I would suspect that a very large portion of those families could sacrifice one car to go electric. Even very basic electric cars have an 80 or 100 mile range, enough for their daily use. So look at something like the Nissan Leaf. I did. You're paying $37k for what is basically a Versa with some upgrades. Versa is $16k. So what's the payoff time for that? About 10 years. If it were at par, no brainer. With a 4 year payoff, I'd do it more than like. 10 year? That's a bit tougher. But never mind me. Leaf sales peaked at 25k units and have declined. There just isn't the buy-in yet. I'll revisit this in 5 years probably. Hopefully the costs have come down..or gas has gone up!

So I don't want to open a huge can of worms here, because I know people disagree on whether electric car subsidies are a good idea, but, politics aside -- these subsidies exist. Nissan is currently knocking 8-10k off the current Leafs, since next year's model is going to have almost double the range and they want to get rid of the current ones. Combine that with the 7.5k federal tax credit and our 5k Colorado tax credit and you can get a new Leaf with about 120 miles of range for under 15k.

As you say, it's a fantastic second car. I think we've bought 4 tanks of gas to go back and forth to the mountains in the Subaru over the last 6 months, and other than that, we use the Leaf for everything. Electricity is roughly 1/3 the cost of gas to charge it up, but we have solar panels now, so it's all a sunk cost for us. It's a pretty sweet setup.

 

[bbinder]

High performance? Electric and hybrid motors are already lapping the gas guzzlers. I am actually excited to see what the possiblities are with these motors. With Tesla sedans already doing 0-60 in 2.28 sec...just wow.

True! But if I am going to buy a gas guzzler, it may as well be one that scoots!

 

[scott43]

So I don't want to open a huge can of worms here, because I know people disagree on whether electric car subsidies are a good idea, but, politics aside -- these subsidies exist. Nissan is currently knocking 8-10k off the current Leafs, since next year's model is going to have almost double the range and they want to get rid of the current ones. Combine that with the 7.5k federal tax credit and our 5k Colorado tax credit and you can get a new Leaf with about 120 miles of range for under 15k.

As you say, it's a fantastic second car. I think we've bought 4 tanks of gas to go back and forth to the mountains in the Subaru over the last 6 months, and other than that, we use the Leaf for everything. Electricity is roughly 1/3 the cost of gas to charge it up, but we have solar panels now, so it's all a sunk cost for us. It's a pretty sweet setup.

I don't disagree with most of that. I'm just not sure the data support the idea that people will convert. At least not looking at Leaf sales in isolation. There are more options as far as other EV's go so maybe in general it's higher, dunno. But I don't think the political climate exists in the US now to continue subsidies and certainly the environment has been taken off the agenda. So it will be interesting to see.

Sometimes this stuff happens organically. We have so many e-bikes here that you can't back out of your driveway without running over one of them riding on the sidewalk! Various things caused that to happen..no licensing requirements (90% are DUI drivers)..no insurance..no legal enforcement of any kind of rules (bicycle paths and sidewalks are fair game).. And boom, thousands of the things. So you never can tell.

 

[pais alto]

France plans to end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2040:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/06/business/energy-environment/france-cars-ban-gas-diesel.html

In related news, @Don in Morrison cancels plans to move to Chamonix.

 

[RachelV]

India has a similar goal for 2030:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ion-piyush-goyal-climate-change-a7711381.html

I could have sworn there was another country with a less ambitious target (half electric cars by 20XX) but now google is failing me...

 

[Started at 53]

Those lofty goals are all BS since the USA pulled out of the Paris Accord. They were planning to use OUR funding to accomplish the goals they wanted.

Sugar Daddy pulled out, and the kids are crying, or will be soon.

 

[Dave Marshak]

Those lofty goals are all BS since the USA pulled out of the Paris Accord. They were planning to use OUR funding to accomplish the goals they wanted.

Sugar Daddy pulled out, and the kids are crying, or will be soon.

No. The kids will boot daddy, and lock him out of trade agreements until he quits smoking.

I know this is gonna get the thread locked but you brought it up. Paris is not a "deal." It's more a continuing negotiation. Now the rest of the world will negotiate without considering the interests of the US. Maybe they apply some tariff on countries that don't participate, maybe something else. I have a lot of experience negotiating multilateral agreements among large numbers of parties, and the one thing I know for sure is that if you are not at the table, you are on the menu.


dm

 

[Started at 53]

No. The kids will boot daddy, and lock him out of trade agreements until he quits smoking.

I know this is gonna get the thread locked but you brought it up. Paris is not a "deal." It's more a continuing negotiation. Now the rest of the world will negotiate without considering the interests of the US. Maybe they apply some tariff on countries that don't participate, maybe something else. I have a lot of experience negotiating multilateral agreements among large numbers of parties, and the one thing I know for sure is that if you are not at the table, you are on the menu.


dm

While I do not negotiate any multinational deals, I can tell you that they need us more than we need them. Fracking changed the dynamics of current and future negotiations. I don't think the rest of the world wants to tweak The Donald. Think UN funding! Think NATO funding and Article 5 enforcement! We are in a very powerful position, especially being we are energy independent!

 

[Dave Marshak]

While I do not negotiate any multinational deals, I can tell you that they need us more than we need them. Fracking changed the dynamics of current and future negotiations. I don't think the rest of the world wants to tweak The Donald. Think UN funding! Think NATO funding and Article 5 enforcement! We are in a very powerful position, especially being we are energy independent!

I agree we are in a powerful situation, and have been for a long time. The current international trade system was created by the US, and largely serves US interests, including its interest in stability and peace. It is just wrong to say that the EU or China has taken unfair advantage. That's why it is so foolish to withdraw from negotiations, which are all necessary to preserve US influence. Unless you think it is better to stop talking and go with unilateral military action. Sad.

mm

 

[Bill Talbot]

I agree we are in a powerful situation, and have been for a long time. The current international trade system was created by the US, and largely serves US interests, including its interest in stability and peace. It is just wrong to say that the EU or China has taken unfair advantage. That's why it is so foolish to withdraw from negotiations, which are all necessary to preserve US influence. Unless you think it is better to stop talking and go with unilateral military action. Sad.

mm

US interests, absolutely, just not that of the people who live here.
However stability and peace are not on their list. In fact the world leader to the contrary...

 

[Started at 53]

I agree we are in a powerful situation, and have been for a long time. The current international trade system was created by the US, and largely serves US interests, including its interest in stability and peace. It is just wrong to say that the EU or China has taken unfair advantage. That's why it is so foolish to withdraw from negotiations, which are all necessary to preserve US influence. Unless you think it is better to stop talking and go with unilateral military action. Sad.

mm

OK, getting very political here (which I enjoy btw), but while the current trade system might have been "created by the US", my question is.... Was it created with OUR best interests in mind? The previous administration gives me lots of doubts about our best interests.

 

[Dave Marshak]

US interests, absolutely, just not that of the people who live here.
However stability and peace are not on their list. In fact the world leader to the contrary...

What is your point? People are not interested in peace and stability? Who is the world leader? Who voted for her?

dm

 

[Started at 53]

What is your point? People are not interested in peace and stability? Who is the world leader? Who voted for her?

dm

I can't speak for him, but... I think he means that conflict is in the interest of many world leaders.

Syria is not about ISIS or Assad, Syria is about a pipeline that the Russians need to get their gas to a deep water port for better distribution to Europe.

 

[Dave Marshak]

...while the current trade system might have been "created by the US", my question is.... Was it created with OUR best interests in mind? The previous administration gives me lots of doubts about our best interests.

That is the problem of electing leaders that large numbers of people react strongly too. Those strong reactions cause large numbers of people to distrust the leader. Even if an unpopular leader follows the same policies as the previous opposite party administration (and he mostly did in foreign relations), those same policies become unacceptable. The same dynamic is working against the current administration now, except the current administration rejects the foreign policies of the last 2 or 3 or 12 administrations.

dm