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USST Nominations and Cuts Underway

Muleski

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It's that time of year. Actually has been for a month or so. Athletes who have not met USST criteria based on their gender and age are having conversations with the team. In some cases, they may be "discretionary picks". In others, they may be dropped. And then there are some athletes to whom the USST will commit to WC starts, but they will be skiing independently and need to pay almost all of their expenses.

Every year there is a lot of discussion about the criteria, and whether it is appropriate. Particularly in terms of expecting too much, too soon.

The criteria states that for women birth year 1992 or earlier, and men 1990 or earlier you must make A team criteria. Which is top 25 on the World Cup Start List in at least one event. It gets "easier" the younger you are.

But it is shocking how few meet that A team criteria. Nyman, Ganong, Ligety, Jitloff, Engel. Robbie Kelley may. He's right on the bubble.

Women. MS, LV, Resi, Cook, Ross, McJames. Jackie Wiles is close. Mancuso's frozen points keep her in.

Looks like a number will not be close based on their age. Will be interesting to see how they handle this.....

Have heard a few things, but nothing that is public. Or close.

A lot of younger skiers who I hope they keep. And some older ones who might be done. Always a tension convention.

And not unique to the USST. It's why you see some of these retirement announcements.
 
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TS
Muleski

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Bode is still on the WCSL. He's finished. Not a chance. Lots of discussion here throughout the last 18 months around his alleged "comeback."
He is too stubborn to say that he's retired. Pretty much that simple. The USST is done with the game, I hear.
 
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Muleski

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When you are "injured", and in the shelf, your points are frozen. It's a LOT easier when the athlete makes the decision to retire and end the career. It gets further complicated by the big equipment contracts that some have, based largely on their former years. Julia M with Stockli and Lange. What happens to their income when cut?

I and many others say there is about zero chance of Julia M returning to ski competitively, and many are questioning the whole "thing" all spring with being on start lists and never starting, or forerunning. A lot of harsh commentary not make public.

I doubt if we'll see her race again. If she drags it out all summer and fall, who knows. Word is she physically can't handle it with her hip.

I'm concerned with younger people who have shown serious upside being cut. I hope we don't see too many.

The USST needs a complete rebuild, IMO. A lot of discussion about whether how we handle MS is good for the entire USST, or not. We're in a slightly different place with the guys.
 

BGreen

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It's tough, but I agree the whole system is in desperate need of an enema. If not identified early, athletes will never get the support to make the team. When they are identified early, there may be pressure, training and financial demands beyond what they can handle. Then of course there are unending and often ridiculous team and interpersonal politics.

I had high hopes of a system overhaul when Tiger Shaw took over, but I have yet to see and substantive positive change.
 
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Muleski

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A lot to fix, agree 100% BGreen. There has to be a process to identify our potential best, get them into an apporopriate pipeline {which could consist of a number of options or tracks}, develop them, support them, and do our best to ensure their success.

My own experience tells me that we have most often tried to identify them and get them into the US team system real early, and then at the other end push them out when many are still young and still improving. The timelines are very different than with other national federations, IMO, as we seem reluctant to make exceptions to our "criteria" based on a number of factors. We are one size fits all, for the most part.

Many questions about Tiger's leadership and performance. I think he is on a very hot seat. I heard a pretty influential guy in the sport comment that all Tiger has done is screw up live-timing, then fix it. Literally could not point to anything else. He was brutal in his overall "evaluation." Tiger needs to move a lot faster and deliver. A lot of people on that board have high expectations. I hope we see more.

This is an Olympic year, which is always followed by quite a bit of change. It might be a tough year, with resulting significant change.

I just would hate to see the USST dropping a number of 22-26 year old skiers, because the have not progressed enough. If that were the case in a number of other countries, the World Cup ranks would be a lot thinner. Many think we have a lot of talent there...if we manage them properly. And have some patience.

I believe that Leif Haugen, of Norway, was 25 when he graduated from DU and began to ski full time on the WC. Had his big breakthrough this past season at 29. Not sure how we would handle it. Our guys have more pressure put on them by the USST in some cases than they do with the natural pressure of the WC. Have never met ONE athlete who thought it was a positive. Always worried about starts, funding. No long haul view. Hard to be loose.

A few obvious exceptions. MS has been a once in a generation talent since she was about 13, and has very much been on her own program.

So....back on topic, it will be interesting to see how this team shakes out. I think there will be surprising drops, and surprising discretionary picks to stay on the team. Just starting to trickle out. Fingers crossed.
 

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I must say I was really shocked by what I saw this season as a now parent, ex coach. Will be interesting for sure.
 
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Muleski

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I actually think that some of the people in the USST ranks are learning quite a bit through working in collaboration with the Norwegians. We're doing some training with them, etc, I think it's VERY good. Over the last decade we have changed in many ways. The majority of our staff and coaches are Americans. Nothing wrong with that, but you lose some outside perspective.
Didn't mean to hop on my usual rant about the rest of the world using the NCAA college ranks as their development teams, HaHa.
Interesting to talk to the Norwegian coaches about how they see different WC athletes developing differently. One has worked with Kristoffersen since he was 9. And HK hit the WC VERY young. Kilde did as well. They pretty much skipped the Europa Cup. Others on the tech team have done it differently. And they are ALL better than any of our Tech skiers, other than Ligety.

They don't seem to have he same hard and fast criteria, which is essentially a matrix of world rank and birth year.

We'll see how things shake out this year. Criteria, financial pressure, pressure to perform. Lot of factors.
 

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Great points as always MS.

And yes, I think Tiger has probably been a bigger disappointment than even the performance of the Mens Tech team. Like many others I had high hopes for him bringing much needed change but have been sadly disappointed. Listening to him at Squaw pretty much confirmed to me that he is an administrator, not a change agent. I realize he has lots of divergent pressures on him but if we are to get out of the current rut he needs to lead from the front. The one positive thing I have seen from him at grass roots level is extending my coach's license to also cover my race license, at least saving me from having to purchase 2 licenses.

WRT athletes getting thrown out too young, I would look further back in the process and suggest maybe they have come in too soon. If they have been there for 8 years with no real results I have to question whether it is worthwhile still keeping them on board. And on the flip side we seem to keep room many "old lags" hanging around too long as well, maybe occasionally making the top 30 but in reality not going to go any further, and in the process keeping funding from the next generation. i had really hoped that we would have seen more of a clear out before last season to give some more support further down the line and "blood" them a bit more in a non world/non Olympic season. Now we are likely to see the argument that we need to keep some of the old guard around for another year because it is Olympic year and we need their experience. Go figure!.

Most importantly of all though we MUST find better ways of funding the B&C team levels. Frankly it is beyond ridiculous that we want athletes at that level to still pony up $50k + to be on the team (and I also heard from one athlete who was being considered for D (?) team that he was asked to pay $3k just to take part in the trials - WTF???) and be trying to fundraise at probably one of the most critical parts of their development.

And yes, the NCAA thing is simply crazy...time to put America first!
 

Started at 53

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Question from a Newb who has virtually no knowledge on the topic, but here goes:

What is a reasonable expectation for the USST? In the recent past we have had Lindsey, Bode, currently we MS and Ligety

How many top level skiers should we expect/demand from our team?
 

Started at 53

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Ok, I looked at the current roster, wow, lots of the team were born in the 80's, many in the mid-80's

I would think that the prime years would be 22-28 years old when the body is at it strongest and prior to injuries taking their toll.
 

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Mancuso and Miller......as much as I love them both how much time is fair to give them....a season, two?? There needs to be a limit. Their spot on the team should be filled with a temp from below to get them the experience. If they're injured they should be on a type of injured reserve list and allow younger or new skiers into the team. Just a couple of my thoughts on it. I know it's not necessarily feasible given WC and FIS rules but I think it would sure help not only the team as a whole, but the development of some others who deserve a shot.

Leanne Smith is the only USST athlete to announce retirement this year as far as I know.
 
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Tricia

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Mancuso and Miller......as much as I love them both how much time is fair to give them....a season, two?? There needs to be a limit.
I'm with you, and I don't follow how the system works as much as others in this thread.

What comes of the young up and comers who don't have a spot because an older racer doesn't announce retirement?
I adore Julia and what she's done to influence young girls to ski out here in Tahoe, but if she's not competitive and is ready to move on, then move on.
 
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Muleski

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I meant to respond to @Started at 53's inquiries. Forgot to, and just saw the thread.

Good question. The USST has had different goals and strategy over the years. To be honest, it's been all over the place. The one constant has been that the organization has always struggled to either manage their budget, or to raise enough money to fund things. Some suggest that we simply can't support as many "disciplines." Too many mouths to feed. Others feel that we are missing the boat by not ramping up things like skier cross. We cover it all. And if you have a passion for one specific discipline you can't imagine it being dropped. Look at women's ski jumping.

You may recall that the USST's tag line, developed under Bill Marolt, the CEO at the time, was "Best in the World!" At the time, he took a lot of heat, as by any measure we were not the best, or close. Shortly thereafter we began to have some consistent individual performance that absolutely was the best. Bode was unquestionably the best multi event skier on tour for a while. DR was near the top. Vonn, Mancuso{on big stages}, later the emergence of MS. Right now we have the best female speed skier in history, and Mikaela, who most will agree is the best SL skier ever, and soon will be there in GS. A healthy Ligety is pretty darn strong.

But what determines "Best in the World?" There is this thing called the Nation's Cup, and it goes to the team that has the best season on the WC. It's huge deal for the big ski federations. The Austrians would like to own it. This year on the women's side, the Italians snuck in to take it. This year our women finished fourth. The men eighth. Sixth overall. Pretty far back. Some people think it's a big deal. If my federation won, I would.

In alpine racing, and even at the better ski clubs, there has been a historical "thing" whereby a disproportionate amount of time, resources and talent has gone to push a very small handful of people. I have seen it at some of the bigger ski academies. You might have a FIS womens group of 12, but it's real clear that the focus is one or two. The same thing has taken place on the USST. And the USST is not alone. The worst example, which sure "worked" was Slovenia and Maze. She had the record season, and she and he boyfriend/coach bled the system and almost finished it off. Amazing to see how great things are for them, in terms of a real team of many, with that show gone.

MS has her own coach, her own assistant, her own physio, etc. Atomic provides her own tech, and her own boot tech. No sharing. When Bode and and Ligety were both skiing, they were the multi event team {a team of two}. I think they had three, maybe four coaches, and a whole lot of support. Same for LV. At times much more on her own. But the focus and goal was to get medals. Get WC wins, and WC globes. And, they have executed pretty damn well on that plan. That's hard to argue with. The future is a bit concerning. Other than MS, this is going to take patience and time.

Taking the other side of the coin, we have not much depth, not much bench strength. We push kids who are young, and throw them out of the system too soon. You will hear of one shortly and it infuriates me. I feel very strongly that it is all because of mis-management of resources, and too much love for the chosen ones. In that respect we are unique. We bounce people VERY young. The Euro's do not. Not as much. If it's never going to happen, sure. We seem to drop people with the goods to succeed.

As far as age, women are ready and peak at younger ages than men. We used to throw them in the breech too young. Skiers gain a lot with experience on the WC, familiarity with the venues, and the whole show. For men, particularly on the speed hills, but even on the super demanding tech hills, years of experience is often required to capitalize on. Not everybody is a HK, or Hirscher. Travis Ganong is really just hitting his stride as a speed skier, at what, 28? I like to look at the Norwegian team. A real team.

So, it's not an easy equation. Who do you keep? Who do you cut loose? At what ages? Do you rely on "objective criteria", or lean more on "discretion?" Do you let more people be part of the team, and have them pay their way? This season we are going to have at least two guys {maybe three} starting every WC SL who are good enough for that, but will not make the team at the ages of 26 and 27. That is NUTS. These guys, properly supported might be great skiers. They are bigger, stronger, skiing faster and more consistently than ever. The criteria at their ages is a bit ambitious, being polite. Yeah, good enough to start every WC, and already assured of that, but not "on the team." Huh?

I have had conversations with USST coaches in the early summer, before the training season really began, when they had singled out an athlete or two, made the comment that they "snuck in" by just making criteria and that they were never going to make it. And than, having done NOTHING to help those athletes in the course of the year, patted themselves for being right and being such great evaluators a year later when the athlete was dropped. That was years ago, but there is some of that thinking that goes on. Some of our athletes who hang on the team for years were "chosen ones" who were can't misses at 17, and guess what, have pretty much missed for a decade or even longer. "Chosen ones."

That is a mess. The USST really prides itself on how many of their current coaches are American, and even on how many are USST alums. Some with almost zero coaching experience before going the USST. I really don't know if that is good. There are great coaches who learn the craft in other countries, starting to coach and learn at about 18. They are serious. Do we ignore that talent pool? They probably upset the system. Might be bigger conflicts that I perceive.

Talk to 10 people who have some insight and experience with the USSA and USST, and I will guarantee that eight will express incredible frustration with this financial picture. It amazed me that with their operating budget they can not assemble a development staff to raise the money to fully fund this deal. It's not a huge amount of money. Some think this is harsh, and "mean." They have good people who work hard at development and PR, etc. In a real corporate world, very nice and good people get cut loose daily because the results are not there. Sad but true. We need to improve it.

The national team lists are coming out all over the world. Some of these team rosters look HUGE compared to ours, and its my understanding that none of these athletes are reaching into their pockets. Some have "jobs" with the government as police officers, or army officers, and happen to be assigned to the country's ski team. The sport is just a bigger part of most cultures, and the governments and sponsors recognize it. The sponsors are big.

You have some older athletes on last years USST roster. Where they there? Bode, Mancuso? Ligety is struggling to stay healthy. Vonn is at the end of the road. There are also a lot of holes in terms of birth years.

The ski team development{skiing development, not fundraising} system has been open to a lot of criticism. Most thing that it's much improved since Chip Knight took it over, and since they realized that keeping many younger athletes right with their clubs for the most part, supplemented by many "projects" made sense. Naming a D team of 8 or so, and dropping 6 from the system the following spring didn't make much sense.

I hear more people being quite critical, rather than thinking this is working very well. Some expect a complete housecleaning after the 2018 season. CEO on down. Complete reboot. I don't know about that. I do look at the roster of management and coaches, good people, and think that a lot might be ready for a change. Seems like you have a limited life span in these roles. It's hard work.

And some new blood and thinking might help the team.

Julia and Bode were on that roster because they technically were "injured" with frozen FIS points. It's a game with Bode, Bomber, and that whole show. I assume that he will be off the list, despite the fact that he has yet to use that word retired. Mancuso is likely in a situation where she gets one paycheck size when she is competing, maybe the same if "injured." If she retires, then she is negotiating for a LOT less money. So, there is this cat and mouse game that goes on. Not a fan of it.

I would not look at it in terms of their taking a spot that the younger kids could have. Not like a 53 person NFL roster. They are not using any real resources when sitting on the sidelines. Better examples are these on the A team, who have clearly plateaued, still compete, and are not doing much, and costing money. Tim Jitloff is one. How long? But clearly a chosen one. I hear that he is of big value on the team because he is a great training partner for Ligety. Often beats him soundly in training. Then look at race day. Lots of questions. Don't mean to be harsh in singling him out. He has been at it for a long time.

There is anything but complete transparency on this stuff. Objective criteria to be nominated and make the team, yes. It gets very mixed in terms of the athlete management though. To the point where people decline to join the team. That is an indicator that something is wrong. Often the price tag is too high. Congrats, send us a check for $35K, and include your credit card number......

There have been some significant individual donors who have been quite frustrated not long ago. Thinking that some of this made no sense.

Off the soapbox.
 
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PisteOff

Jeff
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I meant to respond to @Started at 53's inquiries. Forgot to, and just saw the thread.

Good question. The USST has had different goals and strategy over the years. To be honest, it's been all over the place. The one constant has been that the organization has always struggled to either manage their budget, or to raise enough money to fund things. Some suggest that we simply can't support as many "disciplines." Too many mouths to feed. Others feel that we are missing the boat by not ramping up things like skier cross. we cover it all. And if you have a passion for one specific discipline you can't imagine it being dropped. Looks at women's ski jumping.

You may recall that the USST's tag line, developed under Bill Marolt, the CEO at the time, was "Best in the World!" At the time, he took a lot of heat, as by any measure we were not the best, or close. Shortly there after we began to have some consistent individual performance that absolutely was the best. Bode was unquestionably the best multi event skier on tour for a while. DR was at the top. Vonn, Mancuso{on big stages}, later the emergence of MS. Right now we have the best female speed skier in history, and Mikaela, who most will agree is the best SL skier ever, and soon will be there in GS. A healthy Ligety is pretty darn strong.

But what determines "Best in the World?" There is this thing called the Nation's Cup, and it goes to the team that has the best season on the WC. It's huge deal for the big ski federations. The Austrians would like to own it. This year on the women's side, the Italians snuck in to take it. This year our women finished fourth. The men eighth. Sixth overall. Pretty far back. Some people think it's a big deal. If my federation won, I would.

In alpine racing, and even at the better ski clubs, there has been a historical "thing" whereby a disproportionate amount of time, resources and talent has gone to push a very small handful of people. I have seen it at some of the bigger ski academies. You might have a FIS womens group of 12, but it's real clear that the focus is one or two. The same thing has taken place on the USST. And the USST is not alone. The worst example, which sure "worked" was Slovenia and Maze. She had the record season, and she and he boyfriend/coach bled the system and almost finished it off. Amazing to see how great things are for them, interns of a real team of many, with that show gone.

MS has her own coach, her own assistant, her own physio, etc. Atomic provides her own tech, and her own boot tech. No sharing. When Bode and and Ligety were both skiing, they were the multi event team {a team of two}. I think they had three, maybe four coaches, and a whole lot of support. Same for LV. At times much more on her own. But the focus and goal was to get medals. Get WC wins, and WC globes. And, they have executed pretty damn well on that plan. That's hard to argue with. The future is a bit concerning. Other than MS, this is going to take patience and time.

Taking the other side of the coin, we have not much depth, not much bench strength. We push kids who are young, and throw them out of the system too soon. You will hear of one shortly and it infuriates me. I feel very strongly that it is all because of mis-management of resources, and too much love for the chosen ones. In that respect we are unique. We bounce people VERY young. The Euro's do not. Not as much. If it's never going to happen, sure. We seem to drop people with the goods to succeed.

As far as age, women are ready and peak at younger ages than men. We used to throw them in the breech too young. Skiers gain a lot with experience on the WC, familiarity with the venues, and the whole show. For men, particularly on the speed hills, but even on the super demanding tech hills, years of experience is often required to capitalize on. Not everybody is a HK, or Hirscher. Travis Ganong is really just hitting his stride as a speed skier, at what, 28? I like to look at the Norwegian team. A real team.

So, it's not an easy equation. Who do you keep? Who do you cut loose? At what ages? Do you rely on "objective criteria", or lean more on "discretion?" Do you let more people be part of the team, and have them pay their way? This season we are going to have at least two guys {maybe three} starting every WC SL who are good enough for that, but will not make the team at the ages of 26 and 27. That is NUTS. These guys, properly supported might be great skiers. They are bigger, stronger, skiing faster and more consistently than ever. The criteria at their ages is a bit ambitious, being polite. Yeah, good enough to start every WC, an already assured of that, but not "on the team." Huh?

I have had conversations with USST coaches in the early summer, before the training season really began, and they have singled out an athlete or two, made the comment that they "snuck in" by just making criteria and that they are never going to make it. And than, having done NOTHING to help those athletes in the course of the year, patted themselves for being right and being such great evaluators a year later when the athlete was dropped. That was years ago, but there is some of that thinking that goes on. Some of our athletes who hang on the team for years were "chosen ones" who were can't misses at 17, and guess what, have pretty much missed for a decade or even longer. "Chosen ones."

That is a mess. The USST really prides itself on how many of their current coaches are American, and even on how many are USST alums. Some with almost zero coaching experience before going the USST. I really don't know if that is good. There are great catches who learn the craft in other countries, starting to coach and learn at about 18. They are serious. Do we ignore that talent pool? They problem upset they system.

Talk to 10 people who have some insight and experience with the USSA and USST, and I will guarantee that eight will express incredible frustration with this financial picture. It amazed me that with their operating budget they can not assemble a development staff to raise the money to fully fund this deal. It's not a huge amount of money. Some think this is harsh, and "mean." They have people who work hard at development and PR, etc. In a real corporate world, very nice and good people get cut loose daily because the results are not there. We need to improve it.

The national team lists are coming out all over the world. Some of these team rosters look HUGE compared to ours, and its my understanding that none of these athletes are reaching into their pockets. Some have "jobs" with the government as police officers, or army officers, and happen to be assigned to the country's ski team. The sport is just a bigger part of most cultures, and the governments and sponsors recognize it. The sponsors are big.

You have some older athletes on last years USST roster. Where they there? Bode, Mancuso? Ligety is struggling to stay healthy. Vonn is at the end of the road. There are also a lot of holes in terms of birth years.

The ski team development{skiing development, not fundraising} system has been open to a lot of criticism. Most thing that it's much improved since Chip Knight took it over, and since they realized that keeping many younger athletes right with their clubs for the most part, supplemented by many "projects" made sense. Naming a D team of 8 or so, and dropping 6 form the system the following spring didn't make much sense.

I hear more people being quite critical, rather than thinking this is working very well. Some expect a complete housecleaning after the 2018 season. CEO on down. Complete reboot. I don't know about that. I do look at the roster of management and coaches, good people, and think that a lot might be ready for a change.

And some new blood and thinking might help the team.

Julia and Bode were on that roster because they technically were "injured" with frozen FIS points. It's a game with Bode, Bomber, and that whole show. I assume that he will be off the list, despite the fact that he has yet to use that word retired. Mancuso is likely in a situation where she gets one paycheck size when she is competing, maybe the same if "injured." If she retires, then she is negotiating for a LOT less money. So, there is this cat and mouse game that goes on. Not a fan of it.

I would not look at it in terms of their taking a spot that the younger kids could have. Not like a 53 person NFL roster. They are not using any real resources when sitting on the sidelines. Better examples are these on the A team, who have clearly plateaued, still compete, and are not doing much, and costing money. Tim Jitloff is one. How long? But clearly a chosen one. I hear that he is on the team because he is a great training partner for Ligety. Often beats him soundly in training. Then look at race day. Lots of questions.

There is anything but complete transparency on this stuff. Objective criteria to be nominated and make the team, yes. It gets very mixed in terms of the athlete management. To the point where people decline to join the team. That is an indicator that something is wrong. Often the price tag is too high. Congrats, send us a check for $35K, and include your credit card number......

Off the soapbox.
Great post
 

ScotsSkier

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Yes Muleski, some good things in it and some stupid...(JM??? really???). Good to see Bryce Bennett on the A team though, and Sam Morse named to C team.

Look forward to your thoughts
 

Tricia

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I have a bit of an odd question.
I see Bode Miller isn't on the list, but since he's not officially retired, does he automatically make the cut?
 

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