Turn Initiation

[Youngsman]

This year’s breakthrough was the realization that my COM wasn’t crossing over along with transitioning to the new edge leaving me perpetually in the back seat as the terrain got steeper and faster. In the past I’ve worked to improve my transition to the new edge always concentrating on “skiing from the feet up” which I found an appealing touchstone, but seemingly did little to get me out of the backseat. So, here’s my question, why not initiate the new turn by moving my COM (top of hip bones) down fall line instead of my feet, or boots or knees or whatever is lower on the kinetic chain?

 

[Don Duran]

Focus wise most people zero in on a small bit of advice and then interpret it in a very literal way. As we ski we have a lot of details to think about but as we learn we are sometimes led to focus on one detail. Mostly to avoid trying to explain several ideas at the same time.
Having said that the foot first mantra often gets misinterpreted to mean the rest of the body is relatively static as the feet work really hard. It goes back to an idea I first read in a book World Cup Ski Technique by James Major and Ollie Larsson. It has to do with mass and acceleration. Before you say whoa fella, let me say I won't delve into that detail without your approval. The short version is moving the feet requires less energy than moving the more massive torso. That idea makes sense but the body's role in balancing and transitioning from one turn to the next cannot be ignored. IMO a more enlightened idea is that the entire body participates in our balancing efforts. By assigning tasks to each part of the body we can coordinate all of our movements to either create change or manage that change.
In practice this means releasing the core prior to releasing our edge platform. Thus creating the classic crossing over / under move we call the transition. In a vaulting transition we extend the uphill leg to thrust the core up and over the feet and into the new turn. In a retraction transition we flex the ouside leg and let momentum carry the core across the skis while we keep the skis turning across the hill. But the torso must move in a way that compliments what the legs and feet are doing. Leaning into then out of a turn is one way to describe the role of the torso. It must flow through the turns as well as the transitions in an uninterrupted way. Some call it conserving momentum but whatever you call it the torso is doing more than just being carried around by the limbs.
Hope that helps
Don

 

[Youngsman]

Don,
This is really good; it clarifies and validates what I've been thinking. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I think of it as I want my pelvis to flow down the hill and I use my feet and legs to accomplish that.

 

[Youngsman]

So, can I coordinate the parts of this transition, or as Kneale says, have my “pelvis to flow down the hill and I use my feet and legs to accomplish that” without choosing to extend (cross over) or retract (cross under)? I’m trying it in bare feet in my living room and it seems to work.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Focus wise most people zero in on a small bit of advice and then interpret it in a very literal way. As we ski we have a lot of details to think about but as we learn we are sometimes led to focus on one detail. Mostly to avoid trying to explain several ideas at the same time.
Having said that the foot first mantra often gets misinterpreted to mean the rest of the body is relatively static as the feet work really hard. It goes back to an idea I first read in a book World Cup Ski Technique by James Major and Ollie Larsson. It has to do with mass and acceleration. Before you say whoa fella, let me say I won't delve into that detail without your approval. The short version is moving the feet requires less energy than moving the more massive torso. That idea makes sense but the body's role in balancing and transitioning from one turn to the next cannot be ignored. IMO a more enlightened idea is that the entire body participates in our balancing efforts. By assigning tasks to each part of the body we can coordinate all of our movements to either create change or manage that change.
In practice this means releasing the core prior to releasing our edge platform. Thus creating the classic crossing over / under move we call the transition. In a vaulting transition we extend the uphill leg to thrust the core up and over the feet and into the new turn. In a retraction transition we flex the ouside leg and let momentum carry the core across the skis while we keep the skis turning across the hill. But the torso must move in a way that compliments what the legs and feet are doing. Leaning into then out of a turn is one way to describe the role of the torso. It must flow through the turns as well as the transitions in an uninterrupted way. Some call it conserving momentum but whatever you call it the torso is doing more than just being carried around by the limbs.
Hope that helps
Don

I agree, to get there this is the importance of pole plants.

Too many years ago, I was taught that the correct timing of the pole plant (touch) starts this initiation.

Here is Ted and his turns, look at when his pole touches, almost after his passing of the gate. This is the initiation of the next turn. Watch the sequence as his upper starts to move and everything else below follows.

While at the extreme end of skiing, it gives a very good example of the concept. Just not to that extreme for us mere mortals.

 

[john petersen]

Don, that is a very cool way of looking at transition.....holistic....in concert....blended.

I think its a very good mindset to work from. Very true that misinterpretation is sometimes formed from remembering one or two words that resonate. The bigger picture may become blurred.....and this is often the result.....but if we go back to your holistic mindset and revisit the bigger picture while working on minutia, and continually blend those two ends of the spectrum....we should be able to keep some healthy perspective on "good skiing" as a whole.

Work on an exercise....focus on a movement or idea...then blend it back into skiing. keep what works, shelve the rest....repeat.

We say to "keep your feet under you".....but is it clear that we must do that in relation to the slope we are on? not always.

"ski with your feet"....well, of course.....but in relation to the above.

Im thinking about the infinity move here a bit....its a good example of everything working in concert to achieve intent in a very artful manner.

anticipation: for me its slowing the feet at initiation as opposed to getting up and over them with the hips....but in reality its a blend of both....and yes, if you think in terms of the chain of events that needs to happen in order to maintain balance and ski performance....then you begin to approach the holistic mindset Don talks about and Kneale simplifies....(IMHO)

JP

 

[Mendieta]

I'm thinking about the infinity move here a bit....its a good example of everything working in concert to achieve intent in a very artful manner.

Me too! And here is the link to the infinity move thread.

 

[Zentune]

Yup, and one of the tenets of the infinity move is that the bos "catches" and "throws" the CoM....which fits nicely with joint articulations/muscle activations such as pronation and supination--pronation being the catching/suspension phase and supination being the throwing/propulsion phase (read: stacking against the grf load).

Indeed though, the foot first mantra taken by itself can be misused---e.g. lifting the toes, excessive twisting, etc....but so can the top down model e.g. "waisteering", imo.

zenny

 

[Mendieta]

Indeed though, the foot first mantra taken by itself can be misused---e.g. lifting the toes, excessive twisting, etc....but so can the top down model e.g. "waisteering", imo.

Yes, this is why I humbly submit that @Youngsman is probably better served with a more holistic approach, and not so much on the egg (feet) or the chicken (upper body). Which was @Don Duran 's brilliant suggestion above. We do need to understand the different details, but we should never lose perspective of how they fit in the whole. (easier said than done, granted, at least for me

 

[Zentune]

Without seeing video however, we cannot really prescribe beyond that i.e., we don't know how Youngs is initiating from the foot level, or if he is at all. Falling in the backseat after initiation could have any number of causes that could stem from shoving the feet too far ahead or pushing across and inside or dropping the hip in only or.......so it could be a bottom up, top down, or global issue.

zenny

 

[john petersen]

So, can I coordinate the parts of this transition, or as Kneale says, have my “pelvis to flow down the hill and I use my feet and legs to accomplish that” without choosing to extend (cross over) or retract (cross under)? I’m trying it in bare feet in my living room and it seems to work.

tactically, you may need to use a combination of both, one, or the other....but those movements need to be worked into the other movements you are making at transition and are affected by desire, terrain, conditions, ect. The feet help guide the hips by using the skis design in concert with skeletal alignment. (or stacking of body segments) AND how we are able to anticipate upcoming sensations and react to them. sometimes the feet are pushing the hips from what can feel like "behind the body"....though in reality on a slope, the feet are merely under the body....this is more related to turn initiation. the feet can also jet a bit at turn finish in anticipation for the next turn, where the feet slow again and its there that the hips "cross over" the feet, but its more a function of the slowing feet (feet that are still turning or following the arc) than any isolated move you make with your hips specifically.....

blend.

Its the dance that happens in concert between the body, the skis and the snow and our intentions control tempo and style. sometimes Im in the mood for jazz, sometimes black sabbath, but usually a yellow submarine.....

 

[JESinstr]

T So, here’s my question, why not initiate the new turn by moving my COM (top of hip bones) down fall line instead of my feet, or boots or knees or whatever is lower on the kinetic chain?

Some great input from those who have commented above. But the reason your question cannot be answered definitively ( and why "Blend" is probably the best available answer) is that velocity (which is highly dynamic) was not included/considered in your question.

For instance, if you are trying to initiate a turn from a stand still on a very mild slope, you will first need to move your com toward your outside ski in order to begin building turning force because at this low velocity you are relying on gravity to remain upright. And when you are working with gravity as the force underlying your BOS it is feet first. But if you are coming out of a turn at 10+ mph on a blue and your intent is another turn, then you want you allow your COM to pass through the gravitational field in anticipation of balancing against the turning force to come.

For instructors, I think this is at the root of many conversations about how we teach wedge turns.

 

[François Pugh]

Herein lies the advantage of live one on one instruction. A lot of folk will follow the instruction, while allowing other movements to happen on their own, but some folk will take the instruction very literally, to the extent that if they were not told to allow their body to continue flowing into the next turn under its own momentum when they tipped their skis the other way, they wouldn't do it.

With one on one instruction, the instructor can see what's missing and correct miscommunications.

 

[fatbob]

Very hard to learn to ski with words alone...I'd liken it to learning maths without pen, paper or fingers and thumbs

 

[oldschoolskier]

I'm not going to advise against anything said by some very good skiers and instrustors.
I won't comment on CoM and to get it to move, or edge transitions, nor fore or aft pressures. They've done a better job than I.

What I will advise is think how a turn ends and how it starts. Strangely enough, there is a great overlap here which causes discussion and debate (sometimes friendly and sometimes not).

Think of skiing as the upper body leading the lower body. Depending on application the upper may be as far ahead as a 1/3 of a turn.

There are a lot of discussions, as well as as many opinions on this, so I won't further the fuel in the fire by taking a specific stand of which is right, as it truely depends on the moment. (Great comment on 1 on 1 instruction).

So pick with the upper where you want to go, and the feet will take you there (with correct sequence of technique). Strange that, walking seems to work that way too.

Hope this clears things up.

 

[Mendieta]

So pick with the upper where you want to go, and the feet will take you there

You mean like this?


You gotta love @Bob Barnes !

 

[oldschoolskier]

You mean like this?


You gotta love @Bob Barnes !

Yeah!

@Bob Barnes

 

[JESinstr]

So pick with the upper where you want to go, and the feet will take you there (with correct sequence of technique).

Hope this clears things up.

Hmmm the "Go there" mentality... Barnes and Bud's "Ski with Intent" mantra ..... I think we might be on to something!

 

[Don Duran]

So here a thought, once you gain the ability to do Bob's infinity move you will realize that the slowing down is a function of turning away from Gravity. A conservation of momentum thing similar to an idea Harb shared with me a few years ago. Not exactly the same but similar.
In the end it compliments slow line fast skiing. Sometimes that isn't our best option though. A more direct line requires a different approach where some active braking is involved. That is why moves like a stivot exist. So stay open to the idea that no one option can always be best. Play around with all of these options.